When Did The Church Begin

RomansToPhilemon · Feb 9, 2017

Sure. You must of missed my post to this question from you. I'm not sure where it is, but here are some verses.

Isaiah 45.25
In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

1 John 3.24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Out of the 78 times in the Bible the phrase “in Christ” shows up, Paul uses the phrase 75 times. It is clear that the phrase is distinctively Pauline.
Afterall, to Paul was revealed the mystery of God’s will that…

“in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him” – Ephesians 1:10

The all things in Christ consist of the prophesied earthly things, but also the heavenly things revealed as the mystery of Christ kept secret since the world began.

It is evident that God’s purpose has always been for all things to be in Christ.

So, when Paul describes Junia and Andronicus as being “in Christ before me”, this is seen as an admission that those before Paul taught the same thing as him. Yet, this would be an hasty conclusion since merely being in Christ is not the mystery of Christ kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25). Both the prophets and the Lord in his ministry to Israel talked about being in him.

We can read in the prophets that Israel would be justified in the Lord:

“In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. “ – Isa 45:25

Throughout the prophetic writings finding refuge in the Lord was a common theme. Being glad, rejoicing, and resting in the Lord were common admonitions.

That salvation was found in the Lord, and subsequently in the Lord Jesus Christ was no mystery. Peter and the twelve, along with Adronicus and Junia, had to be in Christ according to God’s earthly prophetic purpose. The phrase “In him”, found at the end of Ephesians 1:10, is the phrase used more often by John in his writings about being in Christ.

“ And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.” – 1 John 3:24

Jesus taught his disciples to abide in him (John 15:4) as the true vine. If they did not abide, by keeping his commandments, they were cut off and cast forth.

Fortunately, your position in Christ is not that of a branch but a body member (Eph 5:30). God does not cut off body parts. You and I are in Christ according to the revelation of the mystery of Christ. Our position in Christ is without the commandments of the law, and is apart from Israel’s covenants.

Being in Christ was always part of God’s plan for heaven and earth. That Israel needed to be found in the Lord was nothing new. When Christ came, he taught they needed to be in Him, and that they would be one with the Father (John 17:21). Those in Christ according to prophecy were part of Israel’s kingdom covenants (John 15:5).

Those that are in Christ according to the mystery dispensation of Christ are part of a new creature, without Jew or Gentile (2 Cor 5:17, Col 3:10-11). Out of two, Jew and Gentile, God made one new man in Christ in this dispensation (Eph 2:15-16).
The difference between prophecy and mystery is not that one would be in Christ and the other would not. The dispensational difference is how we come to be in Christ. This has always been the difference.

The mystery of Christ explains how ungodly Gentiles could be in Christ without the law and access to the covenants. This mystery was not known by any of the prophets in time past until the Lord chose to reveal it to the apostle Paul.

RomansToPhilemon · Feb 9, 2017

fredoheaven said:

Hi Sir!

The title of the OP is about the church when it did began. I just prove my point and you agree. If that's true then that's no problem. However, your problem is that COC is not BOC but the Bible says they are of the SAME body which is the church. What is Acts 9 is added to Acts 2 which my proposition is that the church began earlier than Acts 2. Of course I did not ask you and left some part in Eph. 1:10 since I am trying to to stress my point that word 'unto' and 'to' is different as per the Bible says and the very definition of unto in the New Testament is found in the verse I've cited.

Now, I didn't play or hear any of your link videos or audios and I am sorry to tell you that. Not to mention, that I was once a member of the strict KJVOnliest Bible Forums (way back 2008 though I am not here for any agenda but of course we need to be on guard when the Bible (KJV) is bashed) where dispensationist abounds including MAD. MAD, always means two. The very last things tackled is about wet baptism vs. dry baptism and I believe in the waters of baptism. MAD do not believe it.

Anyway, I have already posted in Page 121 where some doctrines of the Bible has been confused of by MAD.

Thank you

Glad to see you couldn't refute what I was saying. Thank you.

RomansToPhilemon · Feb 9, 2017

Chester said:

Read through my posts. I have one on the body of Christ does not start in Acts 2. Also, every post I have made on this thread shows verses and such. Videos too. As well as links to websites. Body of Christ is not part of the Little Flock in Acts 2. Nor will you find the BoC in Hebrews-Revelation. It's impossible.

Chester · Feb 9, 2017

RomansToPhilemon said:

Glad to see you couldn't refute what I was saying. Thank you.

fredoheaven · Feb 10, 2017

RomansToPhilemon said:

Umm...

Below you will find one of your post:

"I would argue that there are at two main churches. The church in Israel which lead all the way up unto Acts 2. Then God interrupts Israel's prophetic program, and a new body is formed after the Stoning of Steven and the saving of the apostle Paul. Where Christ reveals a hidden, secret, mystery revelation that not even the angels knew about. And God calls this new mystery Church, one new man - a new creature, no more Jew or gentile. Only the body of Christ. Which after formed, will be raptured out of here and take seats in Heaven while God finishes his program with Israel; and then the Church started in Acts chapter 2 will resume. 2 Men will hit the scene. God will call out 144k and start to preach Hebrews-Revelation. And fulfill all the end time prophecies. The anti-Christ will be made known and that good stuff will go on. "

Here is your statement in Post *2 and how you play semantics. You said you 2 main churches.

1. The church in Israel which leads all the way up to unto Acts 2.
2. Then the “body of Christ” or the “mystery church” was formed after the stoning of Steven and the conversion of Apostle Paul in Acts 9.

Notice here how you play words, 2 churches then splitting them to two that is church in Israel and the body of Christ, the “mystery church” being later formed which in your post 153 you said “Yes, this is exactly what I said. They were added to the already present church. NOT the body of Christ. The BoC wasn't even revealed yet. I don't see what you are trying to get at or ask?”.

I see you’re mix up mind. First, let’s delve for a while since this must be the topic in line and there’s no need to refute you that’s not my intention, you just misunderstood something.

Is the church not the body of Christ?

According to Paul, it is! Here are scriptures:

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

We have to remember that Paul says to the Corinthian believers as the ‘body of Christ’ of whom this Epistle was written as unto the church of God which is at Corinth.

1 Corinthians 1: 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Again,

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Again and again,

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

So Paul’s writing the Epistle to the Ephesians and Colossians talks the same thing of the body, the church and many scores of Pauline Epistles that talks of the same to mean the body of Christ is the church.

Here is the right division of the word of truth my friend consider below scripture:

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Unbelieving Jews are still Jews
Unbelieving Gentiles are still Gentiles
So where will you put or placed believing Jews and Gentiles?

Hope you give none offence to Apostle Paul or the scriptures.

Thanks,

RomansToPhilemon · Feb 10, 2017

fredoheaven said:

You haven't said anything new??? What are you trying to insinuate? You keep saying I'm mixing up words or have a mixed mind? Don't tip toe around what you want to say. Just say it. Articulate it. I can't read your mind and I don't speak code. At lease make an argument or if you think you have made one at least make it clear.

Ephesians 1:10 says that in the fullness of times all things will be gathered together in Christ. Only from that vantage point can we see the saints from all time in union; not before.

However, if we step back into history where the times have not been fulfilled, then we find that God has delivered different instructions to humanity at different times. Those instructions (dispensations) change the message of the church. Some even change the nature of the church.

Dispensational Bible study at its core attempts to understand these differences and reconcile them to God’s eternal plan in Eph 1:10.

A large sum of your Bible speaks about one of three separate groups of saints. Three different churches with three different messages with responsibilities to God. If these churches are rightly divided it will solve much doctrinal confusion in the church today.

The Church in the Wilderness is referenced by Stephen in Acts 7:38. It refers to the nation Israel following Moses to the Promised Land. These people operated under God’s instructions in the Old Covenant or Mosaic Law. This message and mission continued up to and through Jesus’ earthly ministry.

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

The Church in the Temple is referred to in Acts 2:44-47. This church which was “added to” at Pentecost was formed by Christ himself from the remnant of believing Israel. God’s instructions for this group were the fulfillment of prophecy in the kingdom and the New Testament. Faith that Jesus was the Messiah was required along with water baptism. Peter, James, and John are the leaders of this group that will sit on twelve thrones in the coming earthly kingdom.

The Church, the Body of Christ is referred to by Paul in Col 1:24. This church began with Jesus saving Paul by his grace “out of due time” (1 Cor 15:8) which was after the stoning of Seven! The message of this group is said to be a “mystery” and “kept secret. hid in God”. It includes Jews and Gentiles together but not under a law system. Their conversation is in heavenly places.

1 Tim 1.16 In Paul FIRST to them who believe HEREAFTER!
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me (Paul) firstJesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Today, God is building his church which is the body of Christ. We should be careful not to take instructions to the Church in the Temple or the Church in the Wilderness as our instructions or we may be building with the wrong material (1 Cor 3:13).

Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation. (Rom 15.20)

According to the grace of God which is given unto me (Paul), as a wise masterbuilder, I (Paul) have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. (1 Cor 3.10)

Not every instruction in the Bible was written to you or about you. When we try to determine if an instruction from the Lord is written to us we should ask “who is speaking?”; “which church are they speaking to?”; “is it the church God is building today?”

This helps to locate God’s instructions written to us. It also carefully separates doctrinal confusion that can occur when we borrow instructions from another church.

Now is this were you ignore everything I said above and say something like "woah I thought you said there were only two churches?" Completely ignoring all the previous truths I've written. You ignore the scriptures I'm bringing to light and just keep bringing up new things - never addressing my original response. If you don't think you can learn anything knew, the bible call's you a fool.

You said you only expressed half of Eph 1.10 and left out the important part of the verse because you were trying to stress your issue (not mine) with "unto" and "to". Which is nothing but a strawman argument, because I never even made any of the claims that you were putting on me. You left out the back half of Eph 1.10 because you can CLEARLY see TWO different realms. -- Divided by God's word!

But it doesn't fit your narrative, so you twist and deceive yourself to make it say what you want it to say. The verse clearly says gather all things in Christ - BOTH in heaven and in earth. Tell me, who is he gathering together if no ones in heaven? Or if everyone's in heaven, who is he gathering together in Earth? And you can't say it's the people over in the book of revelation, because in that same verse, Eph 1.10, it states "in the dispensation of the fulness of times."

According to the verse, there are people in heaven and in earth at the dispensation of the fullness of times.

So if everyone's part of the 'one body church' like you are claiming in all those verses you quoted. Who is being gathered together in the fullness of times in heaven and in earth?????????? (as the verse clearly says)

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

John146 · Feb 10, 2017

RomansToPhilemon said:

Sure. You must of missed my post to this question from you. I'm not sure where it is, but here are some verses.

Isaiah 45.25
In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

1 John 3.24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Out of the 78 times in the Bible the phrase “in Christ” shows up, Paul uses the phrase 75 times. It is clear that the phrase is distinctively Pauline.
Afterall, to Paul was revealed the mystery of God’s will that…

“in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him” – Ephesians 1:10

The all things in Christ consist of the prophesied earthly things, but also the heavenly things revealed as the mystery of Christ kept secret since the world began.

It is evident that God’s purpose has always been for all things to be in Christ.

So, when Paul describes Junia and Andronicus as being “in Christ before me”, this is seen as an admission that those before Paul taught the same thing as him. Yet, this would be an hasty conclusion since merely being in Christ is not the mystery of Christ kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25). Both the prophets and the Lord in his ministry to Israel talked about being in him.

We can read in the prophets that Israel would be justified in the Lord:

“In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. “ – Isa 45:25

Throughout the prophetic writings finding refuge in the Lord was a common theme. Being glad, rejoicing, and resting in the Lord were common admonitions.

That salvation was found in the Lord, and subsequently in the Lord Jesus Christ was no mystery. Peter and the twelve, along with Adronicus and Junia, had to be in Christ according to God’s earthly prophetic purpose. The phrase “In him”, found at the end of Ephesians 1:10, is the phrase used more often by John in his writings about being in Christ.

“ And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.” – 1 John 3:24

Jesus taught his disciples to abide in him (John 15:4) as the true vine. If they did not abide, by keeping his commandments, they were cut off and cast forth.

Fortunately, your position in Christ is not that of a branch but a body member (Eph 5:30). God does not cut off body parts. You and I are in Christ according to the revelation of the mystery of Christ. Our position in Christ is without the commandments of the law, and is apart from Israel’s covenants.

Being in Christ was always part of God’s plan for heaven and earth. That Israel needed to be found in the Lord was nothing new. When Christ came, he taught they needed to be in Him, and that they would be one with the Father (John 17:21). Those in Christ according to prophecy were part of Israel’s kingdom covenants (John 15:5).

Those that are in Christ according to the mystery dispensation of Christ are part of a new creature, without Jew or Gentile (2 Cor 5:17, Col 3:10-11). Out of two, Jew and Gentile, God made one new man in Christ in this dispensation (Eph 2:15-16).
The difference between prophecy and mystery is not that one would be in Christ and the other would not. The dispensational difference is how we come to be in Christ. This has always been the difference.

The mystery of Christ explains how ungodly Gentiles could be in Christ without the law and access to the covenants. This mystery was not known by any of the prophets in time past until the Lord chose to reveal it to the apostle Paul.

Yes, I get what you're saying, but my stance is that people were getting "in Christ" different ways until Paul revealed the mystery of the grace of God. Now, to get "in Christ" one needs only to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for sins. This mystery among others was revealed to Paul specifically since the kingdom promised to Israel has been postponed.

RomansToPhilemon · Feb 10, 2017

John146 said:

Yes, I think I agree with you. I would read the verse 1 Tim 1.16 where Paul says 'in him first' God might show his longsuffering (which is the dispensation of Grace = longsuffering) as a pattern for believers whom believe THEREAFTER. I think it's key to understand that because Paul saying in him first, is more evidence the body of Christ is not part of the church in prophecy nor the church from Heb-Rev. My previous post about the three churches goes over this a little.

Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

FranC · Feb 10, 2017

RomansToPhilemon said:

Hi §RTP

I wanted to respons to you about this, but I coudn't remember the thread and I don't know how to find it. Still learning.

I had watched this video which you're posting.

The guy is really good and he knows how to do diagrams and all that. He's pretty convincing.

This is why it's good to read the bible a lot and really get to know scrpture well before you start getting ideas that are extra-biblical and listening to people who have odd ideas.

I wish you'd stop listening to this guy and just read your bible and come to your own conclusions. If we're going to be sheep (and we all are) then we should be sheep for Jesus, not for Richard Jordan.

I'm not going to post here too much because i don't care when people think the church started. I'd say the church started with Adam.

God wanted to make a family for Himself and he started with Adam and Eve and marriage. Won't go into the whole thing, but it's nice to study it in case anybody is interested.

I'd say that the first time it was called "church" is after Jesus died. But it's one thing to give something a name and it's another thing for its existance.

Electricity always existed, even before it was given a name.
Gravity always existed, even before it was given a name.
The Church always existed, even before it was given a name.

In fact, one of the big questions is: Did Jesus come to set up a church or to teach a way of living our life.

Fran

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When Did The Church Begin

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