Death and Dying, part deux

[Magenta]

We can say God creates evil by defining evil. Evil was evil not until He called it so.

The easiest way to think of this is: We have free choice, but God knows which way we will choose. The devil has free choice, but he can be counted on to do his evil. The devil doesn't seek permission to attack us, but he always will if God backs His hedge away from us.

When we look to the early Protestant Christians belief systems, we must realize they carried many false doctrines from the RCC they spun off from. You are right on here trofumis.

First I'll address NoNameMcgee about whether all his statements are true. They are for right now. God is not done with anyone yet.

Magenta you are so close to understanding what God is doing with mankind. It is hard for us to understand how God looks back through time to allow evil to happen to enhance our spiritual growth. Even David said "by your hand Lord has this bad happened to me." Or something to that effect. So if God backs His hedge away from us it is the same as Him attacking us. The devil is faithful at his job. How all this predestination and foreknowledge is too hard for our little minds. Bottom line: God reigns. We just have to trust God.

Hello Deade Thank you for your well thought out reply. My apologies for not responding sooner...

I agree that God defines what is good and what is evil. I do not like the term free will, partly because it is fraught with too many issues which cloud the issue. I prefer instead the term self will. It is indisputable that man possesses a will that is in opposition to the will of God. I trust that God is good and has our best interests at heart

 

[JGIG]

Well...I had not (and still haven't) seen anyone in here say that God causes men to do evil to other men. You have given me some quotes from men who don't come in here appearing to say it, but I still have not seen anyone in this thread say it. I can't go by you saying you have seen them say it in here. I can only go by what I hear a man say. I haven't seen it. But I have not read everything any man has said in here. So...still looking for where that quote from calvin comes. I've found that it is in his commentary on acts but still haven't found it yet to read the surrounding sentences, context and intent.

Actually, Depleted did, in the other thread (that you said you read):

Originally Posted by Depleted

Let's get this down to personal levels, since you prefer vague levels.

I was raped! I do not know all the reasons God had me go through that, but I know this much.

I was raped because...

-- I was stupid enough to think I was invincible, and God had to show me how much I need him.

-- Five young men thought they could do anything they wanted. They too thought they were invincible.

-- I needed a kick to get me to the point of really quitting drugs. I had been stuck in this circle of "maybe if I just do a little here and there, I can handle it. No. I really need to stop because I've royally screwed up my time in college, and now I have to live with those consequences and start a real life. But real life is too hard, how about just a little stoned? No, how about a lot of stoned? I really should stop. God is not pleased. But, I don't know how to stop. Well, maybe if I just do a little here and there..." That went on for six months. Circle, circle, circle, because I had no idea what to do next. So, the Lord took me to where I never wanted to go, and plunged me in so deep, my last "rock bottom" looked like a cliff high above me. (Do understand, I was a senior in college, had all the courses I needed to get my degree, and yet could not do what that degree was for -- teach high school English -- because no one ever gave me a hint that I stink at grammar so can't teach English at any grade level. And, poof, four years of college wasted, in more than one way. I could get the degree. I couldn't get certified to teach. And, there was no going back to learn something else by then, so my plans since I was 12 years old had already crashed around me before I was raped.)

-- Somehow, someway, just telling a friend that I was raped, opened up something I never knew about him. He was a pastor. (I did know that. lol) But he was also a counselor at a drug rehab. I never knew that, and because he was on the board for that place, he was able to get me in immediately. Not only did they teach me how to quit drugs and how to live life sober, they also helped me deal with the rape.

-- Because they helped me to do that, I've got a foot up on helping other people -- boys, girls, men, and women -- who have been raped, plus know how to help with any form of real abuse, and can give hope to those people.

-- Hope. Aka God. The one who got me where I needed to be by taking me through something I never thought could happen to me.

-- Hope! In God. The God of love. The God of Justice. The God of wrath.

That's my story.


​

​

The picture of that god has done great harm in the Body of Christ and has driven many a lost soul away from a god they want nothing to do with.


-JGIG

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Oh, I see. You did not quote PB, though. Were you really addressing something she said? Why didn't you quote her? I am sorry I could not get to all your requests in a timely manner before you wrote me off. I am at work, and was actually late for work due to responding to this thread.

Yeah my dingbat self quoted her and commented, then added another post but in the interim someone else posted, so it was confusing. The post of mine you quoted was meant to be an add on to my previous post. Pay attention!!! Hahahaha!!

 

[JGIG]

Let's see, Job stated that we receive good and evil at the hand of the LORD, yet in stating this, God declared he didn't sin with his lips. Job 2:9-10.

I'm not struggling with this reality, nor has it crossed my mind that God is "a monster" or "the author of evil" as anti-calvinists love to accuse those who hold to the Doctrines of Grace.

I'm standing here with Job and the balance of Scripture, that God allows both, even using secondary causes to accomplish this, and therefor we can state it as truth because it is truth.

Yet, at the same time in our finite mind we cannot explain it nor understand it, but still knowing this, trust Him completely. That is the true position of "Calvinists" but you all (those engaged in their insults and straw man accusations) can carry on with your ignorance and slander of these good brothers and sisters; we do not sin with our lips, either, in embracing and declaring these truths.

"Doctrines of Grace" are doctrines of man.

The "Gospel of Grace" is from the Scriptures, and is Good News, not bad news.

-JGIG

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Oh, I see. You did not quote PB, though. Were you really addressing something she said? Why didn't you quote her? I am sorry I could not get to all your requests in a timely manner before you wrote me off. I am at work, and was actually late for work due to responding to this thread.

Are you intoning that it's my fault you were late for work...??

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Actually, Depleted did, in the other thread (that you said you read):

Originally Posted by Depleted

Let's get this down to personal levels, since you prefer vague levels.

I was raped! I do not know all the reasons God had me go through that, but I know this much.

I was raped because...

-- I was stupid enough to think I was invincible, and God had to show me how much I need him.

-- Five young men thought they could do anything they wanted. They too thought they were invincible.

-- I needed a kick to get me to the point of really quitting drugs. I had been stuck in this circle of "maybe if I just do a little here and there, I can handle it. No. I really need to stop because I've royally screwed up my time in college, and now I have to live with those consequences and start a real life. But real life is too hard, how about just a little stoned? No, how about a lot of stoned? I really should stop. God is not pleased. But, I don't know how to stop. Well, maybe if I just do a little here and there..." That went on for six months. Circle, circle, circle, because I had no idea what to do next. So, the Lord took me to where I never wanted to go, and plunged me in so deep, my last "rock bottom" looked like a cliff high above me. (Do understand, I was a senior in college, had all the courses I needed to get my degree, and yet could not do what that degree was for -- teach high school English -- because no one ever gave me a hint that I stink at grammar so can't teach English at any grade level. And, poof, four years of college wasted, in more than one way. I could get the degree. I couldn't get certified to teach. And, there was no going back to learn something else by then, so my plans since I was 12 years old had already crashed around me before I was raped.)

-- Somehow, someway, just telling a friend that I was raped, opened up something I never knew about him. He was a pastor. (I did know that. lol) But he was also a counselor at a drug rehab. I never knew that, and because he was on the board for that place, he was able to get me in immediately. Not only did they teach me how to quit drugs and how to live life sober, they also helped me deal with the rape.

-- Because they helped me to do that, I've got a foot up on helping other people -- boys, girls, men, and women -- who have been raped, plus know how to help with any form of real abuse, and can give hope to those people.

-- Hope. Aka God. The one who got me where I needed to be by taking me through something I never thought could happen to me.

-- Hope! In God. The God of love. The God of Justice. The God of wrath.

That's my story.


​

​

The picture of that god has done great harm in the Body of Christ and has driven many a lost soul away from a god they want nothing to do with.


-JGIG

I only got to...page 4'ish of that thread and then went to get breakfast, as I stated, meaning to go back to finish reading it, but got caught up in this thread instead and never finished reading the other one. So I hadn't read this post. But I don't think lynn sharing her story is a bad thing. Her testimony is her testimony. And He will use her for whatever and whoever He knows will help certain people. I think it's wrong of you to say her testimony will chase people from God or paints a bad picture of God.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I also don't think that lynn saying "God had me go through that" means that she thinks God moved men to do what they did to her. If I'm wrong on that, she can correct me, but I think she doesn't say God CAUSED 5 men to rape her to get through to her, but that He let her go through it.

 

[UnderGrace]

What you have written here is the absolute and very sad truth.

The picture of that god has done great harm in the Body of Christ and has driven many a lost soul away from a god they want nothing to do with.

-JGIG

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And oddly, the post lynn was responding to was by PB, who said in it that her prayers hinder or put a limit on what satan is allowed to do to her (PB). She doesn't think that God Himself has any control over whether satan or men do evil to her but has stated that her own prayers DO limit what satan is able to do to her or how much he is allowed to sift or buffet her?

That puts her own prayers as having some control over how far satan is allowed to go, which makes her prayers of more value to her than God Himself in this matter.

I think that PB has some things to work through and grapple with some more. I think we all do. We all have fractures where we hold in our minds to be true, things that oppose each other. I'm grateful that we can discuss these things here with each other and work through them with Gods help.

 

[JGIG]

Actually, Depleted did, in the other thread (that you said you read):

Originally Posted by Depleted

Let's get this down to personal levels, since you prefer vague levels.

I was raped! I do not know all the reasons God had me go through that, but I know this much.

I was raped because...

-- I was stupid enough to think I was invincible, and God had to show me how much I need him.

-- Five young men thought they could do anything they wanted. They too thought they were invincible.

-- I needed a kick to get me to the point of really quitting drugs. I had been stuck in this circle of "maybe if I just do a little here and there, I can handle it. No. I really need to stop because I've royally screwed up my time in college, and now I have to live with those consequences and start a real life. But real life is too hard, how about just a little stoned? No, how about a lot of stoned? I really should stop. God is not pleased. But, I don't know how to stop. Well, maybe if I just do a little here and there..." That went on for six months. Circle, circle, circle, because I had no idea what to do next. So, the Lord took me to where I never wanted to go, and plunged me in so deep, my last "rock bottom" looked like a cliff high above me. (Do understand, I was a senior in college, had all the courses I needed to get my degree, and yet could not do what that degree was for -- teach high school English -- because no one ever gave me a hint that I stink at grammar so can't teach English at any grade level. And, poof, four years of college wasted, in more than one way. I could get the degree. I couldn't get certified to teach. And, there was no going back to learn something else by then, so my plans since I was 12 years old had already crashed around me before I was raped.)

-- Somehow, someway, just telling a friend that I was raped, opened up something I never knew about him. He was a pastor. (I did know that. lol) But he was also a counselor at a drug rehab. I never knew that, and because he was on the board for that place, he was able to get me in immediately. Not only did they teach me how to quit drugs and how to live life sober, they also helped me deal with the rape.

-- Because they helped me to do that, I've got a foot up on helping other people -- boys, girls, men, and women -- who have been raped, plus know how to help with any form of real abuse, and can give hope to those people.

-- Hope. Aka God. The one who got me where I needed to be by taking me through something I never thought could happen to me.

-- Hope! In God. The God of love. The God of Justice. The God of wrath.

That's my story.


​

​

The picture of that god has done great harm in the Body of Christ and has driven many a lost soul away from a god they want nothing to do with.


-JGIG

I only got to...page 4'ish of that thread and then went to get breakfast, as I stated, meaning to go back to finish reading it, but got caught up in this thread instead and never finished reading the other one. So I hadn't read this post. But I don't think lynn sharing her story is a bad thing. Her testimony is her testimony. And He will use her for whatever and whoever He knows will help certain people. I think it's wrong of you to say her testimony will chase people from God or paints a bad picture of God.

Oh, I don't have a problem with Depleted sharing her story - testimonies are powerful things!

What I do have a problem with is her saying that her belief that God 'had her go through rape', to show her 'that she needed Him', that she needed for Him to 'give her a kick', that God 'was not pleased', so He took her where she needed to be by taking her through something (rape) - that her belief is an accurate representation of God's sovereignty.

The implication that she's making is that because God 'was not happy with her' that it was His will for her to be raped.

After Christ came, God NEVER dealt with sinners in such a way! Prostitutes, adulterers, tax collectors, sinners of all stripes find God's MERCY in Christ - God NEVER would EVER cause someone to be raped to 'get them where they need to be'!

Why is there evil in the world?

Because God gave angels and mankind free will.

Can God take what is meant for evil and bring good from it? He can and He does. And that's where there is value in Depleted's testimony, not in her belief that God willed her to be raped to teach her a lesson.

Jesus said there would be trouble in this world, but that He would never leave or forsake us.

He promises to be with us in the midst.



-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

And oddly, the post lynn was responding to was by PB, who said in it that her prayers hinder or put a limit on what satan is allowed to do to her (PB). She doesn't think that God Himself has any control over whether satan or men do evil to her but has stated that her own prayers DO limit what satan is able to do to her or how much he is allowed to sift or buffet her?

That puts her own prayers as having some control over how far satan is allowed to go, which makes her prayers of more value to her than God Himself in this matter.

I think that PB has some things to work through and grapple with some more. I think we all do. We all have fractures where we hold in our minds to be true, things that oppose each other. I'm grateful that we can discuss these things here with each other and work through them with Gods help.

We as believers can bring our petitions and requests to God - we're told to do that, are we not? For what purpose? To control Satan? Or to petition God on our behalf or on the behalf of others? I don't see what peacefulbeliever wrote contradicting what we are exhorted to do. Her post said nothing about limiting or controlling Satan:

Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever

Yes, Jesus came to give us life - abundant life. NOT rape, murder, disease, hate, etc. Those things are the result of the fall, the result of mankind's continued disobedience to God and we live in a world in which the devil is in control - if I am to believe what is written. Does that mean that he can run amuck? No, Christian's prayers, love and stance upon the word given to them to fight the spiritual battle hinders what he can do.

"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon that your faith may not fail." The devil doesn't just prey on the lost . . . . haven't you read that our battle isn't against flesh and blood? It is a spiritual battle. Haven't you read that the devil walks around seeking whom he may devour so we are to be alert and aware of his devices? For a while Satan has dominion over the world but his time will come to an end - he knows it - so he will just work harder to destroy God's reputation as a loving God and destroy the integrity of God's word.

If God allows ANYONE to kill then it is God doing the killing . . . if God allows ANYONE to rape then it is God doing the raping - Satan works upon the heart of evil men (and women) to steal, kill and destroy. Evil is "allowed" because Satan's time here upon earth is not finished YET. Moses was a vessel unto honor because Moses turned and obeyed God . . . Pharaoh was a vessel unto dishonor because he would not turn and obey God. If you were a potter you would understand that sometimes you get a lump of clay that will not be molded no matter how the potter works with it . . . it is a "dishonorable" piece of clay.​

I, too, am glad we can discuss these things - I appreciate your civility - getting rarer and rarer in these parts!

-JGIG

 

[Angela53510]

Oh, I don't have a problem with Depleted sharing her story - testimonies are powerful things!

What I do have a problem with is her saying that her belief that God 'had her go through rape', to show her 'that she needed Him', that she needed for Him to 'give her a kick', that God 'was not pleased', so He took her where she needed to be by taking her through something (rape) - that her belief is an accurate representation of God's sovereignty.

The implication that she's making is that because God 'was not happy with her' that it was His will for her to be raped.

After Christ came, God NEVER dealt with sinners in such a way! Prostitutes, adulterers, tax collectors, sinners of all stripes find God's MERCY in Christ - God NEVER would EVER cause someone to be raped to 'get them where they need to be'!

Why is there evil in the world?

Because God gave angels and mankind free will.

Can God take what is meant for evil and bring good from it? He can and He does. And that's where there is value in Depleted's testimony, not in her belief that God willed her to be raped to teach her a lesson.

Jesus said there would be trouble in this world, but that He would never leave or forsake us.

He promises to be with us in the midst.



-JGIG

Seriously! What right do you have to say someone else's testimony is not right, because you don't happen to agree with the theology? You are so arrogant, it passes the bounds.

My testimony, is that I put myself through hell, not God. God saved me from that! But then, he allowed me to go through things, that were sometimes necessary, in order to work on the task of sanctifying me, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

You preach such an anemic and useless gospel, JGIG. Your rigidity and inflexibility to really look at the whole counsel of God, because you have been so badly influenced by the doctrines of evil men, is just pathetic and sad. But then, you do lack theological training, and it really shows!

I pray you do come to understand the sovereignty of God one day, instead of your man-centered, "all about me" gospel.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Oh, I don't have a problem with Depleted sharing her story - testimonies are powerful things!

What I do have a problem with is her saying that her belief that God 'had her go through rape', to show her 'that she needed Him', that she needed for Him to 'give her a kick', that God 'was not pleased', so He took her where she needed to be by taking her through something (rape) - that her belief is an accurate representation of God's sovereignty.

The implication that she's making is that because God 'was not happy with her' that it was His will for her to be raped.

After Christ came, God NEVER dealt with sinners in such a way! Prostitutes, adulterers, tax collectors, sinners of all stripes find God's MERCY in Christ - God NEVER would EVER cause someone to be raped to 'get them where they need to be'!

Why is there evil in the world?

Because God gave angels and mankind free will.

Can God take what is meant for evil and bring good from it? He can and He does. And that's where there is value in Depleted's testimony, not in her belief that God willed her to be raped to teach her a lesson.

Jesus said there would be trouble in this world, but that He would never leave or forsake us.

He promises to be with us in the midst.



-JGIG

Once again, I don't think her statement that "God let her go through it" means that she thinks God WILLED or CAUSED that she be raped. I don't think lynn believes that. I think she believes He permitted it to happen, not orchestrated evil. And I think she believes He worked it for her good the evil that He permitted to touch her. I think she believes He works ALL things for our eternal good. And once again, she can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[JGIG]

What you have written here is the absolute and very sad truth.

The picture of that god has done great harm in the Body of Christ and has driven many a lost soul away from a god they want nothing to do with.​

-JGIG

Sadly yes .

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

We as believers can bring our petitions and requests to God - we're told to do that, are we not? For what purpose? To control Satan? Or to petition God on our behalf or on the behalf of others? I don't see what peacefulbeliever wrote contradicting what we are exhorted to do. Her post said nothing about limiting or controlling Satan:

Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever

Yes, Jesus came to give us life - abundant life. NOT rape, murder, disease, hate, etc. Those things are the result of the fall, the result of mankind's continued disobedience to God and we live in a world in which the devil is in control - if I am to believe what is written. Does that mean that he can run amuck? No, Christian's prayers, love and stance upon the word given to them to fight the spiritual battle hinders what he can do.

"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon that your faith may not fail." The devil doesn't just prey on the lost . . . . haven't you read that our battle isn't against flesh and blood? It is a spiritual battle. Haven't you read that the devil walks around seeking whom he may devour so we are to be alert and aware of his devices? For a while Satan has dominion over the world but his time will come to an end - he knows it - so he will just work harder to destroy God's reputation as a loving God and destroy the integrity of God's word.

If God allows ANYONE to kill then it is God doing the killing . . . if God allows ANYONE to rape then it is God doing the raping - Satan works upon the heart of evil men (and women) to steal, kill and destroy. Evil is "allowed" because Satan's time here upon earth is not finished YET. Moses was a vessel unto honor because Moses turned and obeyed God . . . Pharaoh was a vessel unto dishonor because he would not turn and obey God. If you were a potter you would understand that sometimes you get a lump of clay that will not be molded no matter how the potter works with it . . . it is a "dishonorable" piece of clay.​

I, too, am glad we can discuss these things - I appreciate your civility - getting rarer and rarer in these parts!

-JGIG

She said satan is in control but can't run amuck (unlimited) because her prayers hinder what he can do.
So yes, her post did say something about limiting or controlling satan to some extent.

She has also said that God does not have control over what evil is permitted to touch us. She has said that if He could control the tragedy of evil hurting us but allowed it to happen, then that would make him responsible for sin and evil.

So she thinks her prayers have more to do with what satan is allowed to do than God Himself.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

But I'm not railing at PB. I think she's working on some difficult things and is having her mind renewed just as we all are.

 

[JGIG]

Once again, I don't think her statement that "God let her go through it" means that she thinks God WILLED or CAUSED that she be raped. I don't think lynn believes that. I think she believes He permitted it to happen, not orchestrated evil. And I think she believes He worked it for her good the evil that He permitted to touch her. I think she believes He works ALL things for our eternal good. And once again, she can correct me if I'm wrong.

We can only go on what she actually wrote, and she did write those things. She believes that it was God's will that those things happen. Go back and read what she wrote.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

We can only go on what she actually wrote, and she did write those things. She believes that it was God's will that those things happen. Go back and read what she wrote.

I don't get that same understanding from the post, but she can answer whether she thinks God willed and caused for her to be raped or whether He allowed or permitted it to happen.

 

[Gabriel2020]

Satan is the ruler of darkness only, which is influence over all lost souls that have not come to Christ Jesus.

 

[preacher4truth]

Seriously! What right do you have to say someone else's testimony is not right, because you don't happen to agree with the theology? You are so arrogant, it passes the bounds.

My testimony, is that I put myself through hell, not God. God saved me from that! But then, he allowed me to go through things, that were sometimes necessary, in order to work on the task of sanctifying me, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

You preach such an anemic and useless gospel, JGIG. Your rigidity and inflexibility to really look at the whole counsel of God, because you have been so badly influenced by the doctrines of evil men, is just pathetic and sad. But then, you do lack theological training, and it really shows!

I pray you do come to understand the sovereignty of God one day, instead of your man-centered, "all about me" gospel.

It will take a move of the true God of Scripture to rescue them from the bellhop god they've created in their own image.