Death and Dying, part deux

[peacefulbeliever]

I also have no problem with God predestining or forespeaking what will happen. He knows the end and what everyone will do, so He IS the only one who can ever forespeak. If He didn't know what the end of everyone and everything will be before it comes to be, He could not forespeak, predestine, or prophecy. It is only because He sees all of someones moments at once that He CAN forespeak and be correct...but maybe that's dense of me...it just seems so much simpler to me than some make it to be.

The way I see it if God predestined MY, me, MY individual life - then God meant for the incest to happen to me, that God gave me cancer . . . It also means I cannot make any decisions, what I should wear, what I should cook, what I should eat, where I go on vacation - it may seem like I made the decision but in all actuality, it was already predestined, predetermined the choices I would make . . . it's already be planned, ordered and controlled - Why do we even have scripture to tell us how we can live a righteous life, to love God and love others, to put on any armor whatsoever because my life is predestined to be what it is.

I believe that what was foreknown, predestined and predetermined was the church, i.e. the body of Christ. It was foreknown, predestined and predetermined that those who believe and confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead would be saved - Only to those who walk in the Spirit is there no condemnation; Only those who love God will he work things for the good, for those who have been called according to His purpose, only those in the church, the body of Christ, are predestined to the image of his Son - those he called, those he justified, those he will glorify is only given because of belief in Jesus Christ. He is after all speaking to the church, the body of Christ.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Aaah...I saw an odd thing in your last post magenta...I have to go right this minute and am afraid I will forget what I just saw, but it can't be helped - I have to go. I hope I will be able to relate it when I come back because it is very interesting!
See you guys later, I've been meaning to get going for at least an hour!!

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Ezekiel 18:23
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?


psalm 115 : 3

But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

1 cor 12
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

romans 9
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

God wants all to accept Him

but knows who will

and who wont

and even though He has power to change them

His will is to let them choose or reject His grace

and uses His children as an example of His children

and used those who reject Him as an example of those who reject Him


everyone is given a purpose

and this purpose is used for good

to all who love Him

God takes no pleasure in the wicked dying

and His will is done even so....


He provided a way out even to those who hate Him


(which includes the fact in our limited perspective.... we were not always Gods children... but from His perspective we were and those who will always reject His grace may have once thought they were His.... but He knew from the start they weren't)



have i stated anything that isnt true here?

 

[Magenta]

That really didn't address my post...I said I didn't understand why God having had a full plan in place for what He knew was going to happen, meant to some that He CAUSED the bad thing to happen. I've been made weary by how we cannot seem to understand what the other is saying. I don't see God having had His full plan to save me already planned from the foundation of the world as Him being a puppetmaster. I see it as Him being one I can fully trust! Let's just take a break and try to talk again later when we're fresh.

It did address your post, because saying God has ordained or predestined or caused everything that has ever happened means He is the author of evil by causing people to do evil things, even though that contradicts His desire for us to do good by following His commandments. It is part and parcel of the Calvinistic view, though they will waffle on it and try to hide it. That is why I say they fail to make a distinction between the sovereign will of God and the permissive will of God, as if He would violate His own moral will.

 

[Depleted]

I also have no problem with God predestining or forespeaking what will happen. He knows the end and what everyone will do, so He IS the only one who can ever forespeak. If He didn't know what the end of everyone and everything will be before it comes to be, He could not forespeak, predestine, or prophecy. It is only because He sees all of someones moments at once that He CAN forespeak and be correct...but maybe that's dense of me...it just seems so much simpler to me than some make it to be.

That's why I get stuck on Jonah's fish buddy.

When God created the world, he created a variety of fish. And those fish begat fish, who begat, and begat and begat. And each fish lived it's fishy life, restrained by its nature. (Fish do not come out of water and make a nice summer beach house for themselves, because doing so is against their nature. Same reason humans don't go live under the ocean like a fish. Not our nature.)

But one particular fish from this very long line of fish freely chose everything within his nature to land himself right under a ship going the opposite way from Nineveh but caught up in a storm. And much to the fishy-delight of that fish, the crew was nice enough to throw out something big and yummy-looking right in front of him, so GULP, the fish swallowed the living creature.

The living creature made the fishy's stomach churn. It wriggled, pushed, kicked, and made a terrible feeling inside the poor fish's stomach. Probably felt like food poisoning, fishy style.

But it was a fish. And it is against the fish's nature to go see a doctor and have the problem dealt with, so the fish kept on swimming, kept making more free choices in the next few days, and finally the thing that was upsetting its stomach moved in just the right way to make the fish vomit it out.

AND, it just happened to vomit it out right next to Nineveh!

One fish's story became more than a fish tale!

Every single fish that ever lives, or even those that didn't live, have their own story we will never know about. They all fed other critters. They all fed off other critters. Quite a few of the critters that fed off of them were people, although the fish probably have never quite caught on with what happens once another fish gets caught on that line or net. And we will never know how many times God saved people by having fish at the right place and time.

(I know of one time. That starving army wintering in Valley Forge were at the point of dying the following early-spring, but then something that happened every year happened again. The Scrod swam up the river to spawn, and some landed right next to that starving Army. Something like the yearly salmon runs. Teaming with fish. And yet, some of the army was anti-fish. They look disgusting so not going to eat whatever that is. They died. The others had their fill. And the fish were done right at the time when a Philadelphia baker could finally get his cart through the snow, so he went out to feed the army.)

Just one story in a long history of stories about fish. And of all the things that happen to us, how often do we even think "fish"? Yet God has them all right where he wants them because of their own fishy free-choices to serve or be served.

Fish! A seldom thought-of critter. So think of all the critters, all the plants, all the people, and the way just our solar system works in perfect unison with God's will and human's free choice.

I think a lot about Jonah's fish! God foreknew and preordains wonderfully! And we chose, freely, within our human fallen nature often, not knowing how our choice works God's plan out perfectly.

 

[Depleted]

Okay, I read things like this you say and cannot help but wonder if you wish to implicate me in your statements. Could you please clarify for me? Because I have been calm, though you have misread me more than once, and I do not appreciate being maligned, and saying so does not mean I am not calm. It means I am aware and wish to understand your meaning.

Human nature -- If you don't appreciate when someone does something to you, then don't do the same thing to others.

I don't hit people, because I don't want to be hit. I don't hit other cars, because I don't want them to hit my car. I don't serve liver, because I don't want to be served liver. And, I even don't critique other people's writings for simple grammar mistakes, because I don't want them to think critiquing me means just tell me grammar mistakes.

i.e. If you don't want to be malign, then stop maligning!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I also used the translation that used the word "darkness", not my own but the NIV translation. Darkness to me relates and corresponds with evil because darkness is the absence of light. (John 3:19,20; John 12:35,46) So, I ask again - How can God create darkness (the absence of light) when there is NO darkness in him AT ALL?

"that all things are subject to God, and ruled by his will" . . . that was true in the beginning - until Satan tried to usurp the throne of God with his "I wills" and rebelled and was cast out of heaven. And if all things are ruled by God's will then it is God's will that evil comes upon us . . . there we have God working with evil, i.e. darkness, the absence of light.

Since Satan was cast out of heaven . . . and since God cannot be in the presence of sin (so I have heard said - can't ever find that verse), of which Satan is the epitome of sin . . . would Satan be allowed before God? Or are the first two chapters of Job told in an allegorical style and the moral being taught through his trials and tribulations is "that it rains on the just as well as the unjust"? (Matt. 5:45) Which is of course what Job's miserable comforters believed - that Job had done something terrible and that God was punishing him . . . just the opposite, for Job was a righteous man. Satan asked to sift (fig. by inward agitation to try one's faith to the verge of overthrow) all of you as wheat and in that sense Satan desires to ruin everyone's life to the point they begin to lose faith. What was going to cause inward agitation to the point where Peter would begin to lose faith - Peter denying the Lord before the cock crowed - Then Peter remembered the word the Lord had spoken to him: Before the rooster crows today, you will disown me three times. And he went outside and wept bitterly. Can you imagine how much his faith took a hit at that point?

Two times the word records Satan asking "permission" - so we take those two times and run with it. The whole world lies in the power of the evil one (ESV); the whole world is under the control of the evil one (NIV); the god of this world blinds people to the gospel; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices (2 Cor. 2:11); Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour: (1 Peter 5:8) - Why watch, why are we not to be ignorant? God's up there giving him permission ??????

Correct we are not to be a part of this world, i.e. conformed to this world but we live in it . . . the world, this age that we live in - is under CONTROL, IN THE POWER of the evil one - the only way to separate ourselves from this environment and not be touched by evil/darkness is when we leave this world. It rains on the just and the unjust!

"It all has to fit together or we have missed something." . . . Yes


I said - Does God do (allow) evil to happen to people just so he can turn it around for good? That would be "doing evil so that good may result". (Romans 3:8) Or does he take the evil perpetrated by the adversary (either directly, through men or just the state of the world) and turn it for good?

I believe the latter . . . Man, Paul must have had a really harder time of it in Romans 7 than I first thought - on one side God allowing Satan to get Paul to do the things he doesn't want to do then on the other God is wanting him to do the things he wants to do . . . Whew!!!!

Have to wait for some pieces to dry so snuck back in!
First paragraph. You ask how God, who is light and there is no darkness in Him at all, can create darkness.

When you go to your bedroom at night, it is completely dark. So you turn on the light so you can see. The light rules. Even if the darkness wished to once again overtake the room, it can in no way do so, because the light prevents it from being there. When you leave the room, you turn the light off. Have you created darkness by withholding the light? Yes...but it's not a positive creation of darkness. You didn't say, let there be darkness. You just turned off the light and darkness was the result/creation of having withheld the light.

It's a difficult thing to grasp, but this is why I like, (for the particular verse we are discussing) a rendering more of "I create calamity" more than I like "I create evil." It is a calamity to have God withhold His light, cast into outer darkness. Even the demons begged to be sent into pigs rather than be cast into darkness. The thought terrified them and they begged Jesus not to cast them into the darkness.

But then, I am like you in this respect: I do not believe it possible that God creates or created evil or is the author of evil, as I have stated since the beginning of this thread. It is impossible that He is the creator of evil. And whatever else one may think of calvin (and I myself have only read very little as yet of his writing), I shared what I had found in his writing where he specifically states that God is not the author of evil - his exact words - and where he says that it's a ridiculous thought, so he, by his own words, does NOT believe what some are stating he believes. I suppose they could continue to state that he DOES believe God is the author of evil, but the man with his own pen and words states the exact opposite, so...why on earth would they keep stating it...? I gave entire paragraphs of Calvin in which he states the opposite of what he is being said to have stated. Now UG says he has also stated the exact opposite, so we have to wait for UG to support her statement with a quote from him. Barring that, there's no dishonor in saying: I made a mistake and listened to what another man had to say instead of looking into it myself and giving calvin the respect to listen to him for myself before I spoke about what he has said. In fact, that would not be dishonorable but rather honorable and honest of a man to say he made a mistake. It's a man we would wish to be like who could admit he misstepped.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I had to quickly fly through the rest of your post PB - gotta go again - but I am anxious to read it again more carefully when I return because you bring up great thoughts and wranglings! Tsk and lynn posted again and it looks to be well thought out. GRRRR, want to stay and talk with you guys...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It did address your post, because saying God has ordained or predestined or caused everything that has ever happened means He is the author of evil by causing people to do evil things, even though that contradicts His desire for us to do good by following His commandments. It is part and parcel of the Calvinistic view, though they will waffle on it and try to hide it. That is why I say they fail to make a distinction between the sovereign will of God and the permissive will of God, as if He would violate His own moral will.

I said God had a plan in place for the bad thing He knew was going to happen. How does that make Him the author of evil? If I know a bad thing is going to happen, does that mean I caused it...?

It might help if you deal with what I personally am saying and not any certain doctrine or what any other man has said. I personally said God had a plan in place for the bad thing He knew was going to happen. How do you make the leap that me saying that means God CAUSED the bad thing to happen?

 

[trofimus]

God creates evil in the similar way as a bulb produces shadows and some dark corners in a room.

The darkness does not have source in the bulb and bulb does not have to "create" it actively from itself.

God perfectly set the predestined amount of light and darkness in His creation to make it the best possible creation. But only light has its source in Him.

 

[Deade]

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

We can say God creates evil by defining evil. Evil was evil not until He called it so.

I also have no problem with God predestining or forespeaking what will happen. He knows the end and what everyone will do, so He IS the only one who can ever forespeak. If He didn't know what the end of everyone and everything will be before it comes to be, He could not forespeak, predestine, or prophecy. It is only because He sees all of someones moments at once that He CAN forespeak and be correct...but maybe that's dense of me...it just seems so much simpler to me than some make it to be.

The easiest way to think of this is: We have free choice, but God knows which way we will choose. The devil has free choice, but he can be counted on to do his evil. The devil doesn't seek permission to attack us, but he always will if God backs His hedge away from us.

No historical theological system is perfect. Nor medieval calvinism.

We must be flexible.

When we look to the early Protestant Christians belief systems, we must realize they carried many false doctrines from the RCC they spun off from. You are right on here trofumis.

It did address your post, because saying God has ordained or predestined or caused everything that has ever happened means He is the author of evil by causing people to do evil things, even though that contradicts His desire for us to do good by following His commandments. It is part and parcel of the Calvinistic view, though they will waffle on it and try to hide it. That is why I say they fail to make a distinction between the sovereign will of God and the permissive will of God, as if He would violate His own moral will.

First I'll address NoNameMcgee about whether all his statements are true. They are for right now. God is not done with anyone yet.

Magenta you are so close to understanding what God is doing with mankind. It is hard for us to understand how God looks back through time to allow evil to happen to enhance our spiritual growth. Even David said "by your hand Lord has this bad happened to me." Or something to that effect. So if God backs His hedge away from us it is the same as Him attacking us. The devil is faithful at his job. How all this predestination and foreknowledge is too hard for our little minds. Bottom line: God reigns. We just have to trust God.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

thanks for addressing my post brother

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I also used the translation that used the word "darkness", not my own but the NIV translation. Darkness to me relates and corresponds with evil because darkness is the absence of light. (John 3:19,20; John 12:35,46) So, I ask again - How can God create darkness (the absence of light) when there is NO darkness in him AT ALL?

"that all things are subject to God, and ruled by his will" . . . that was true in the beginning - until Satan tried to usurp the throne of God with his "I wills" and rebelled and was cast out of heaven. And if all things are ruled by God's will then it is God's will that evil comes upon us . . . there we have God working with evil, i.e. darkness, the absence of light.

Since Satan was cast out of heaven . . . and since God cannot be in the presence of sin (so I have heard said - can't ever find that verse), of which Satan is the epitome of sin . . . would Satan be allowed before God? Or are the first two chapters of Job told in an allegorical style and the moral being taught through his trials and tribulations is "that it rains on the just as well as the unjust"? (Matt. 5:45) Which is of course what Job's miserable comforters believed - that Job had done something terrible and that God was punishing him . . . just the opposite, for Job was a righteous man. Satan asked to sift (fig. by inward agitation to try one's faith to the verge of overthrow) all of you as wheat and in that sense Satan desires to ruin everyone's life to the point they begin to lose faith. What was going to cause inward agitation to the point where Peter would begin to lose faith - Peter denying the Lord before the cock crowed - Then Peter remembered the word the Lord had spoken to him: Before the rooster crows today, you will disown me three times. And he went outside and wept bitterly. Can you imagine how much his faith took a hit at that point?

Two times the word records Satan asking "permission" - so we take those two times and run with it. The whole world lies in the power of the evil one (ESV); the whole world is under the control of the evil one (NIV); the god of this world blinds people to the gospel; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices (2 Cor. 2:11); Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour: (1 Peter 5:8) - Why watch, why are we not to be ignorant? God's up there giving him permission ??????

Correct we are not to be a part of this world, i.e. conformed to this world but we live in it . . . the world, this age that we live in - is under CONTROL, IN THE POWER of the evil one - the only way to separate ourselves from this environment and not be touched by evil/darkness is when we leave this world. It rains on the just and the unjust!

"It all has to fit together or we have missed something." . . . Yes


I said - Does God do (allow) evil to happen to people just so he can turn it around for good? That would be "doing evil so that good may result". (Romans 3:8) Or does he take the evil perpetrated by the adversary (either directly, through men or just the state of the world) and turn it for good?

I believe the latter . . . Man, Paul must have had a really harder time of it in Romans 7 than I first thought - on one side God allowing Satan to get Paul to do the things he doesn't want to do then on the other God is wanting him to do the things he wants to do . . . Whew!!!!

Another wait time for drying so I want to talk about your second paragraph. Where is the quote from that you begin the paragraph with?

I believe that no evil can touch me unless God gives permission. That satan can't harm me or sift me unless he gets permission. I believe even as David did when the crazy man was throwing rocks at him and his guys said, let's go kick his butt and david said: no, don't you dare hurt him. If he is throwing rocks at me it's because God told him to (or as I read and understand it - God gave him permission to buffet me with rocks) and God has not told me what He's doing or what He means by this.

I have given ample - more than ample - examples of satan having to ask permission to touch Job, to sift peter. I guess you could view it as satan just asking permission out of politeness, even though he didn't have to get any permission, but I think everyone of us would laugh at THAT idea! So then you're left to grapple with why satan has asked permission to touch men when you say he doesn't have to ask that permission. But that's yours to do the grappling with. I believe he DOES have to ask permission to touch me and it will end in my great blessing, growth in trust, etc.

I don't know why God has let it all go on for as long as He has but I KNOW it's for the very best, wise and perfect of reasons and I know He will one day be praised for letting it go on exactly as long as He did, because all His ways are perfect. I don't know why He permitted what happened to you as a child. I only know He works all things for good to those who love Him and are called by Him. I also know that might make you mad to hear me say it. All things means all things.

I'm fine to disagree, but I have given ample examples of what scripture and bible stories have informed my thoughts, so you can't say I've not considered scripture in my opinions and thoughts.

Third paragraph - I would be interested to hear the verse when you find it that says God can't be in the presence of sin...because He was in the presence of Adam and Eve after they sinned and it says satan came to present himself before God in the book of Job. So I need the verse that negates these other verses and says God cannot be in the presence of sin.

As to the statement that we are running with two verses that have satan asking permission, Wouldn't it be better to run with those two , which are in agreement, than to run with the ONE verse you currently do?

And...towards the end of your post, no I don't think God permits evil just so that He can turn it around for good. I believe if He permits any evil to touch us or satan to sift us, that it is in order to grow our trust, which is our most precious possession, or to bring great and eternal blessing and good to us and/or others. I've used examples from the bible of the blessing that resulted for Job by God giving that permission and of the blessing that resulted for you and I by God permitting men to torture and murder our Lord. They didn't murder Him because God wasn't in control because Jesus said no one took His life but He laid it down willingly and on purpose.

All good points to discuss and grapple with in this post of yours!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The way I see it if God predestined MY, me, MY individual life - then God meant for the incest to happen to me, that God gave me cancer . . . It also means I cannot make any decisions, what I should wear, what I should cook, what I should eat, where I go on vacation - it may seem like I made the decision but in all actuality, it was already predestined, predetermined the choices I would make . . . it's already be planned, ordered and controlled - Why do we even have scripture to tell us how we can live a righteous life, to love God and love others, to put on any armor whatsoever because my life is predestined to be what it is.

I believe that what was foreknown, predestined and predetermined was the church, i.e. the body of Christ. It was foreknown, predestined and predetermined that those who believe and confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead would be saved - Only to those who walk in the Spirit is there no condemnation; Only those who love God will he work things for the good, for those who have been called according to His purpose, only those in the church, the body of Christ, are predestined to the image of his Son - those he called, those he justified, those he will glorify is only given because of belief in Jesus Christ. He is after all speaking to the church, the body of Christ.

Going back to some of my first posts in this thread, I do not see God permitting the awful things that have happened to me to be the thing to focus on. I agree with Calvin that the evil design of any man is not what I should esteem and focus on, but that God and His working any evil plan for my good is what should be esteemed and focused on. And if I'm laboriously insisting that it isn't true that God works ALL things for my good, am I going to see when He does or is it going to pass right over my head because I insist on esteeming the evil done to me over the good God has promised He works for me?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Have to wait for some pieces to dry so snuck back in!
First paragraph. You ask how God, who is light and there is no darkness in Him at all, can create darkness.

When you go to your bedroom at night, it is completely dark. So you turn on the light so you can see. The light rules. Even if the darkness wished to once again overtake the room, it can in no way do so, because the light prevents it from being there. When you leave the room, you turn the light off. Have you created darkness by withholding the light? Yes...but it's not a positive creation of darkness. You didn't say, let there be darkness. You just turned off the light and darkness was the result/creation of having withheld the light.

It's not that simple - God IS light . . . there's no turning that light out and there is no letting darkness in.

It's a difficult thing to grasp, but this is why I like, (for the particular verse we are discussing) a rendering more of "I create calamity" more than I like "I create evil." It is a calamity to have God withhold His light, cast into outer darkness. Even the demons begged to be sent into pigs rather than be cast into darkness. The thought terrified them and they begged Jesus not to cast them into the darkness.

Have you come to torture us before the appointed time? To send them into the lake of sulfur with their "master" - so instead of being sent into the lake of sulfur since this wasn't the appointed time they asked to be sent into the herd of pigs

But then, I am like you in this respect: I do not believe it possible that God creates or created evil or is the author of evil, as I have stated since the beginning of this thread. It is impossible that He is the creator of evil. And whatever else one may think of calvin (and I myself have only read very little as yet of his writing), I shared what I had found in his writing where he specifically states that God is not the author of evil - his exact words - and where he says that it's a ridiculous thought, so he, by his own words, does NOT believe what some are stating he believes. I suppose they could continue to state that he DOES believe God is the author of evil, but the man with his own pen and words states the exact opposite, so...why on earth would they keep stating it...? I gave entire paragraphs of Calvin in which he states the opposite of what he is being said to have stated. Now UG says he has also stated the exact opposite, so we have to wait for UG to support her statement with a quote from him. Barring that, there's no dishonor in saying: I made a mistake and listened to what another man had to say instead of looking into it myself and giving calvin the respect to listen to him for myself before I spoke about what he has said. In fact, that would not be dishonorable but rather honorable and honest of a man to say he made a mistake. It's a man we would wish to be like who could admit he misstepped.

I, myself, have not mentioned Calvin . . .

This statement: "It is God who controls and sends suffering" (either by causing it or allowing it) Though Satan is regarded as having power to make men suffer, some attribute suffering to God, saying it is God who controls and sends suffering, pain. Then what is the Devil doing? Waiting around to get permission? If God could have stopped tragedy from happening but instead allowed it - doesn't he necessarily share the responsibility for the tragedy?

Haven't you noticed the stark contrasts in the Bible - light versus darkness; life versus death, good versus evil, God versus the Devil? How then can God and Satan work in coordination with one another?

An analogy: Let's say two chess players sit to play chess - one is a master chess player, the other in the chess club at college. Although the chess club member may capture a few of his opponent's pieces, even appear to gain the upper hand - the outcome is never in doubt. The master chess player always has a superior strategy that will result in ultimate victory . . . In the same manner God does not need to stoop to manipulating his opponent in order to achieve his goals.
That in a nutshell is Gen. 3 - I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel. . . . that "striking at the heel of Jesus", i.e. his body, his church continues until the last enemy is destroyed.

 

[Magenta]

Stunned, when I give you an answer to a question you ask, I already KNOW you did not say the things I am telling you, and your repeatedly accusing me of saying things to you as IF you said them is nonsensical and problematic when I am telling you things I know you do not know, things I say to you in direct relation to something you say, that specifically address what you have said even though you cannot understand it, things I say with the hope of answering that which ou make plain you do not know. Acting as if I am trying to put words in your mouth just assigns bad intentions
to me; you keep doing it and then telling me I am not addressing what you say when I do. I don't know what your problem is, honestly.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It's not that simple - God IS light . . . there's no turning that light out and there is no letting darkness in.

Have you come to torture us before the appointed time? To send them into the lake of sulfur with their "master" - so instead of being sent into the lake of sulfur since this wasn't the appointed time they asked to be sent into the herd of pigs

I, myself, have not mentioned Calvin . . .

This statement: "It is God who controls and sends suffering" (either by causing it or allowing it) Though Satan is regarded as having power to make men suffer, some attribute suffering to God, saying it is God who controls and sends suffering, pain. Then what is the Devil doing? Waiting around to get permission? If God could have stopped tragedy from happening but instead allowed it - doesn't he necessarily share the responsibility for the tragedy?

Haven't you noticed the stark contrasts in the Bible - light versus darkness; life versus death, good versus evil, God versus the Devil? How then can God and Satan work in coordination with one another?

An analogy: Let's say two chess players sit to play chess - one is a master chess player, the other in the chess club at college. Although the chess club member may capture a few of his opponent's pieces, even appear to gain the upper hand - the outcome is never in doubt. The master chess player always has a superior strategy that will result in ultimate victory . . . In the same manner God does not need to stoop to manipulating his opponent in order to achieve his goals.
That in a nutshell is Gen. 3 - I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel. . . . that "striking at the heel of Jesus", i.e. his body, his church continues until the last enemy is destroyed.

Done with painting these wicker pieces to take to the shop, but now I have been invited to dinner, so I'll have to deal with this post piecemeal too, part now and part later, which doesn't mean I don't like your posts because I do! Actually I should say no to the dinner invite because since I quit smoking three weeks ago, I have gained the weight of at least a small calf, but I want to go so I don't have to worry about what to make myself for dinner! Probably more about me than you cared to hear!!

First paragraph- Think of it this way...what does it mean to be cast into the outer darkness? God doesn't "turn off Himself - He casts AWAY from Himself, sends AWAY from His presence, sends to a place He has prepared AWAY from Himself. So in doing this, He has created a place of darkness for someone. It's not a positive creation as in: let there be darkness. It is a negative creation of darkness by removing from His presence/light.

I hope you will be here later this evening because I'm learning and being blessed and enjoying our conversation! IMMENSELY!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Stunned, when I give you an answer to a question you ask, I already KNOW you did not say the things I am telling you, and your repeatedly accusing me of saying things to you as IF you said them is nonsensical and problematic when I am telling you things I know you do not know, things I say to you in direct relation to something you say, that specifically address what you have said even though you cannot understand it, things I say with the hope of answering that which ou make plain you do not know. Acting as if I am trying to put words in your mouth just assigns bad intentions
to me; you keep doing it and then telling me I am not addressing what you say when I do. I don't know what your problem is, honestly.

Repeatedly...? I thought you said - ONE TIME- that I had said God is the author of evil because of the first sentence of your post. You will have to point out the other times.

By the way, you still have not answered me as to what I have falsely accused you of. You said I keep making false accusations against you but you won't give them to me so I can apologize!

I really don't want to continue this or perpetuate it but I don't want to not apologize if you will just tell me what I falsely accuse you of!

 

[trofimus]

Why do you do so many threads personal.

Lets talk about if God creates evil and if yes, how and what it means. Not about what who said or not.

 

[tourist]

Why do you do so many threads personal.

Lets talk about if God creates evil and if yes, how and what it means. Not about what who said or not.

Those two really love each other though.