Same
Yes, "the wrath upon the Jews" in the passage
wasn't in dispute at all. Again, I NEVER suggested that the passage doesn't say "wrath is come upon the Jews". I was pointing out the language Paul uses; how it was
specifically being directed to Paul's audience (I paraphrased what the passage
WASN'T saying because we only have 1000 characters). Words can fail. This is what I was getting at:
What the passage DOES says [brackets mine]
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [your own countrymen] have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us [the apostles]; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us [apostles] to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their [Jews] sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them [Jews] to the uttermost.
- ^ Paul's language shows his target audience was distinct from Jews
AND Gentiles. Acts 17:4 confirms that (1) some believing Jews and (2) many believing gentiles made up the church of Thessalonians. It wasn't just believing Jews, and it wasn't just believing gentiles.
What the passage DOESN'T say [brackets mine]
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [your own countrymen] have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us [the apostles]; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us [apostles] to speak to you that you might be saved, to fill up their [Jews} sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them [Jews] to the uttermost.
- ^ How many incorrectly read the passage; thinking believing gentiles are Paul's sole audience. Do you see the subtle difference I'm pointing out in
red? This subtle difference can change how the rest of the letter is read.
Well,
my point was "
wrath comes upon all of the unrighteous and ungodly: to the Jew first and then to the Gentile", and then showed this was exactly how Paul spoke to his audience: how in one part of his letter (
1 Thess 2:14-17) Paul speaks about
wrath ALREADY (i.e. "is come") upon the Jews while in the latter part of his letter (
1 Thess 4-5) Paul speaks about
sudden destruction to come upon the Gentiles. He's not
specifically hinting at the pending 70 AD destruction (which doesn't exclude it from wrath...we know it's definitely included in the wrath that fell upon unrighteous Jews, in hindsight), but Paul is speaking
generally about wrath in the 1st letter. Paul is writing to
everyone in the mixed group.
Also, I think where our signals are getting crossed is in our use of the words "judgment" (which I understand as "being weighed in the balance") and "wrath" (which I understand as "destruction". Wrath = Destruction = Wrath = Destruction. They're the same thing.). At some point I may have written the wrong word but...
"
Judgment begins at the house of God" (
1 Peter 4:17) which is Messiah's church, and then extends outwardly as
all will be judged by Paul's gospel (
Romans 2:16)...but Messiah's church isn't appointed to wrath (
1 Thess 5:9). The Almighty isn't a respecter of persons, so wrath must fall on ALL of the unrighteous and ungodly equally...but upon the Jew first (since they receive the oracles of God).
- All are judged by Paul's gospel, beginning at Almighty's house // Messiah's church.
- Wrath falls on the unrighteous (those who were given the law but ignored it) = Disobedient Jews
- Wrath falls on the ungodly (those who know not God and lived without love) = Unbelieving Gentiles
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And all of this was to established the context of Paul's 2nd letter to the Thessalonians.