2 verses that refute all forms of Premillennialism

[Noose]

So nobody has offered anything yet that is worthy of consideration. The verses are clear in what they mean but people just go on ignoring them anyways. Hopefully the thread will bless someone who has an open heart and mind.

And what would you say about this:

Isa 26:
19But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

 

[delirious]

I've given you some good advice on the Job 14:12 text, but you cannot think outside your box and just reject it. Like stated, there are others who also hold the same view I gave, and contextually it is accurate. You just don't like it when a text you choose doesn't happen to support you after all, or has evidence contextually that you could be incorrect.

If you gave an explanation I must have missed it. You said Job 14: 12 was figurative. I asked you for justification for changing it from literal to figurative. You didn't provide any. If you did, I apologize for missing it. Please represent it.

Not you, you simply cannot ever be incorrect.

I used to be a dispensationalist and then historic premill. I've been wrong plenty and with other doctrines too.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I for one would love so clarity on this matter because I have a hard time determining exactly where to stand on the subject.

 

[Hevosmies]

I used to be a dispensationalist and then historic premill. I've been wrong plenty and with other doctrines too.

If you are western im sure most people start off as dispies because its the standard you see on TV and all the christian books and most churches etc.

Historic premil is making a big comeback in some areas, even some pentecostal(ish) teachers like David Pawson believe in it nowadays. One way mission is also historic premil.

Amill has been the historic position of Lutherans, reformed, orthodox, catholics, etc.

Me personally I see amill has some beautiful sides to it, like the simplicity of it. It fits the rest of the NT aside from Rev 20 perfectly. But as i've said to you before, I believe the language in revelation 20 is too strong and specific to talk just about the gospel era we are living in now. Just a weird way to describe it.

I think one of the best arguments for premillennialism can be made from within the book of Revelation by looking at the "travel log" of satan.
Where he is thrown down from heaven during the 1st century (dont fight me on this, i know some people believe its still hasnt happened, I believe this happened at the cross when Jesus said now is the ruler of this world cast out etc.) in Revelation 12. And it says Woe to the earth because now the devil will deceive everyone. The same is repeated in Revelation 13, massive deception, mark of the beast, the whole deal.
Then in revelation 20 satan is bound from doing what he was doing previously in the book of revelation.

I believe thats a simple argument, and thats how you would understand it if you just read the book of revelation from start to finish.

Another great premil argument is the multitude of verses in the OT talking about the kingdom of Israel and the Messiah ruling from Jerusalem, how all nations are flocking to Jerusalem to hear the word of the LORD.
I know amils believe this means everyone joins the Church. But my problem with that interpretation would be that Jerusalem is not the Church, its a location in the middle-east, and in some OT passages it even mentions specific landmarks, which is how we know its talking about a REAL CITY.
This wouldnt fit the new heaven and new earth and NEW jerusalem, but rather the current one we have. The "coordinates" match so to speak.

 

[PennEd]

Quick video explaining the error of Amillennialism.

 

[garee]

Well i can discount Job.. That verse was Job speaking it was not God.. God came down to Job and his friends and corrected them on more then a few things..

Revelation 20 Makes it clear that there will be two distinct and seperate reasurections 1000 years apart..

Revelation 20: KJV
4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. {5} But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. {6} Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

How much more clearer can the Holy Bible be.. The Saints who where beheaded for their witness of Jesus shall Live and reign with Christ during the 1000 years..

How much more clearer can the Holy Bible be. In Revelation we are not only informed the message was inspired from heaven but also it is signified. using the temporal thing seen to give us the unseen spirit understanding Hid from the lost.

Revelation 1 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did "signify it", having sent through his messenger to his servant John,

The first verse sets the stage for the whole Book . Time to do homework and start comparing the unseen spiritual understanding to the same, or faith to faith for in it the righteousness of God is revealed as to the hidden understanding..... the gospel.

When a person looks at the parable in Revelation 20 the signified formula or prescription ( 2 Corinthians 4:18) must be applied. to all of the metaphors . Right from the start John is said to see and angel a angel has no form and the key surely represent the gospel not seen same with a chain .How could a literal chain bind the lies of the father of lies who also has no form?

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Corinthians 4:18

What are the things seen in the parable below and what is the signified meanings.

Revelation 20:4 King James Version And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I would suggest doing a study on how the word "thousand" is used through out the scriptures in many parables. I was pleasantly surprised.

 

[delirious]

And what would you say about this:

Isa 26:
19But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

This is a beautiful prophecy about the return of Christ also known as: The seventh trumpet. The sixth seal. The seventh bowl. The Gog and Magog war of Ezekiel 38 and 39 (not two wars, 39 is recapitulating 38 and is the same event), Rev 19: 17-21 and Rev 20: 8-9, 2 Peter 3: 10-13, 2 Thess 1: 7-10. These are all the same event: The Second Coming of Christ.

You will see similar language that ties all these together. Fire from heaven, the day of His wrath has come, the birds being called to the great supper, a great earthquake, every mountain and island moved out of their place/thrown down/fled away.

These passages are deliberately tied together with similar phrases but they don't all share the same ones. The sixth seal and seventh bowl share a great earthquake and mountains and islands removed. The sixth seal and seventh trumpet share "the great day of His wrath has come" . 2 peter 3, 2 Thess 1, Rev 20: 8-9 share the fire. Rev 19 and Ezekiel 39 share the birds and their great supper.

They are all the second coming of Christ. So is Isaiah 26.

Isaiah 26: 20, "until his wrath has passed by" Rev 11: 18, "and your wrath has come"
Isaiah 26: 19, "the earth will give birth to her dead" Rev 11: 18, "the time of the dead that they should be judged"
Isaiah 26: 21, "to punish the people for their sins" Rev 11: 18, "and destroy those who destroy the earth"

The seventh trumpet happens after the 1,000 years and the Great White Throne is where all of us will be judged.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

This is just blatantly false... false false FALSE information dont believe this junk people.
premillennialism is THE most historic position of the church

You just proved you dont know ANYTHING about church history, have NEVER read the early church fathers and therefore have no business making the claims you are making.

Read Irenaeus, read ignatius, read all these guys from the 2nd and 3rd centuries after the apostles, polycarp, ALL were premill.. Justin martyr, the list is long.

You are mixing up HISTORICAL premillennialism with DISPENSATIONALISM from dallas theological seminary. THE FIRST is what the early church believed, the LATTER is the Scofield version that came about recently.

Here is some quotes, with REFERENCES so you can make sure no bias is involved in the quotes. For anyone who is interested in truth and not just making claims about things they dont know anything about like scofield invented premillenniallism...sad.

http://www.ldolphin.org/premillhist.html[/QUO

I'm not reading one of your web sites that agrees with you. We can have dueling web sites forever and settle nothing. LIke some use the bible, many quotes out of context only make pretext.

Historic premillenianism is just as bad if not worse than Scofield's view.
It was the disciples of Scofield that began the wild ride of the premillies onto that BROAD road, but the idea for Scofield's version came from the so-called "historic premi" view. Simple arithmetic.......1 heresy + 1 heresy = 2 heresies.

I have actually read several writings by those apostolic fathers and none of them even came close to supporting a premil view. For you to say that POLYCARP touted that view is preposterous because little of his writings survived, most of what we know is what was quoted by Iranaeus in his writings "Against Heresies of Marcus, Tongues and Antichrist".
Name dropping means nothing .

Tertullian's letter to the Jews explained to them why they went through the great tribulation.

 

[garee]

If you are western im sure most people start off as dispies because its the standard you see on TV and all the christian books and most churches etc.

Historic premil is making a big comeback in some areas, even some pentecostal(ish) teachers like David Pawson believe in it nowadays. One way mission is also historic premil.

Amill has been the historic position of Lutherans, reformed, orthodox, catholics, etc.

Me personally I see amill has some beautiful sides to it, like the simplicity of it. It fits the rest of the NT aside from Rev 20 perfectly. But as i've said to you before, I believe the language in revelation 20 is too strong and specific to talk just about the gospel era we are living in now. Just a weird way to describe it.

I think one of the best arguments for premillennialism can be made from within the book of Revelation by looking at the "travel log" of satan.
Where he is thrown down from heaven during the 1st century (dont fight me on this, i know some people believe its still hasnt happened, I believe this happened at the cross when Jesus said now is the ruler of this world cast out etc.) in Revelation 12. And it says Woe to the earth because now the devil will deceive everyone. The same is repeated in Revelation 13, massive deception, mark of the beast, the whole deal.
Then in revelation 20 satan is bound from doing what he was doing previously in the book of revelation.

I believe thats a simple argument, and thats how you would understand it if you just read the book of revelation from start to finish.

Another great premil argument is the multitude of verses in the OT talking about the kingdom of Israel and the Messiah ruling from Jerusalem, how all nations are flocking to Jerusalem to hear the word of the LORD.
I know amils believe this means everyone joins the Church. But my problem with that interpretation would be that Jerusalem is not the Church, its a location in the middle-east, and in some OT passages it even mentions specific landmarks, which is how we know its talking about a REAL CITY.
This wouldnt fit the new heaven and new earth and NEW jerusalem, but rather the current one we have. The "coordinates" match so to speak.

REAL CITY as that seen the temporal applying the prescription for rightly dividing the word of God 2 Corinthians 4:18 is used to represent the real bride of Christ. The new Jerusalem or Zion. The new name God named His people as of the first century reformation is Christian . A word when defined and no other meaning added that simply means residents of the City of Christ named after its founder God.

If we would try and make the temporal as that seen the Holy Place then we have in effect made it as the abomination of desecration as that seen standing in the unseen Holy Place ,

What we see with our eyes is set aside as Holy .Holy mean to set aside. The temporal is set aside to represent the eternal, not seen .Never does the thing seen provide any substance. Even Christ said of his own Jewish flesh seen, it profits for nothing. Its the unseen eternal that does

Mount Sinai was set aside as Holy. But the corrupted dirt which will not be part of the new heavens and earth is no different then Mount Ebal set aside as holy to represent a curse.

 

[delirious]

I for one would love so clarity on this matter because I have a hard time determining exactly where to stand on the subject.

Study my posts and you will have the truth. I know my opponents in this thread will be angry with me for that statement so I apologize in advance.

If you have any questions feel free to ask me and I will try and answer them for you.

 

[Noose]

This is a beautiful prophecy about the return of Christ also known as: The seventh trumpet. The sixth seal. The seventh bowl. The Gog and Magog war of Ezekiel 38 and 39 (not two wars, 39 is recapitulating 38 and is the same event), Rev 19: 17-21 and Rev 20: 8-9, 2 Peter 3: 10-13, 2 Thess 1: 7-10. These are all the same event: The Second Coming of Christ.

You will see similar language that ties all these together. Fire from heaven, the day of His wrath has come, the birds being called to the great supper, a great earthquake, every mountain and island moved out of their place/thrown down/fled away.

These passages are deliberately tied together with similar phrases but they don't all share the same ones. The sixth seal and seventh bowl share a great earthquake and mountains and islands removed. The sixth seal and seventh trumpet share "the great day of His wrath has come" . 2 peter 3, 2 Thess 1, Rev 20: 8-9 share the fire. Rev 19 and Ezekiel 39 share the birds and their great supper.

They are all the second coming of Christ. So is Isaiah 26.

Isaiah 26: 20, "until his wrath has passed by" Rev 11: 18, "and your wrath has come"
Isaiah 26: 19, "the earth will give birth to her dead" Rev 11: 18, "the time of the dead that they should be judged"
Isaiah 26: 21, "to punish the people for their sins" Rev 11: 18, "and destroy those who destroy the earth"

The seventh trumpet happens after the 1,000 years and the Great White Throne is where all of us will be judged.

You are right but Isa 26 also talks of resurrection; it says the earth (this old earth) will conceal its dead no more- they shall rise and will hide themselves for a while from the wrath of God on those on earth. This means the resurrection happens during the old earth and the old heaven before the wrath of God, not after the old heaven and earth have passed.

 

[garee]

This is a beautiful prophecy about the return of Christ also known as: The seventh trumpet. The sixth seal. The seventh bowl. The Gog and Magog war of Ezekiel 38 and 39 (not two wars, 39 is recapitulating 38 and is the same event), Rev 19: 17-21 and Rev 20: 8-9, 2 Peter 3: 10-13, 2 Thess 1: 7-10. These are all the same event: The Second Coming of Christ.

You will see similar language that ties all these together. Fire from heaven, the day of His wrath has come, the birds being called to the great supper, a great earthquake, every mountain and island moved out of their place/thrown down/fled away.

These passages are deliberately tied together with similar phrases but they don't all share the same ones. The sixth seal and seventh bowl share a great earthquake and mountains and islands removed. The sixth seal and seventh trumpet share "the great day of His wrath has come" . 2 peter 3, 2 Thess 1, Rev 20: 8-9 share the fire. Rev 19 and Ezekiel 39 share the birds and their great supper.

They are all the second coming of Christ. So is Isaiah 26.

Isaiah 26: 20, "until his wrath has passed by" Rev 11: 18, "and your wrath has come"
Isaiah 26: 19, "the earth will give birth to her dead" Rev 11: 18, "the time of the dead that they should be judged"
Isaiah 26: 21, "to punish the people for their sins" Rev 11: 18, "and destroy those who destroy the earth"

The seventh trumpet happens after the 1,000 years and the Great White Throne is where all of us will be judged.

Those Isaiah references all seem to support the last day the end of the unknown using a thousand years as a metaphor in the parable. .

Question, when referring to the second coming. Do you think another outward demonstration will be performed in respect to corrupted flesh of the unseen work of the Spirit, as if God was a man as us?

Will the 60 foot high veil be mended and be used again to represent he has come in the flesh? Or are we to not look for another demonstration, one demonstration is all he promised?

 

[delirious]

If you are western im sure most people start off as dispies because its the standard you see on TV and all the christian books and most churches etc.

I grew up with my Hal Lindsay and Grant Jeffrey books. I didn't even know there were other eschatological position besides dispensationalism for a long time.

Historic premil is making a big comeback in some areas, even some pentecostal(ish) teachers like David Pawson believe in it nowadays. One way mission is also historic premil.

I watched several sermons by David Pawson. Great man of God.

Me personally I see amill has some beautiful sides to it, like the simplicity of it. It fits the rest of the NT aside from Rev 20 perfectly.

It is simple. Jesus comes back and the heavens and earth are destroyed. Everybody judged at Great White Throne. Wicked into the Lake of Fire. Righteous into the New Heavens and Earth. Bingo, bango. All done.

Another great premil argument is the multitude of verses in the OT talking about the kingdom of Israel and the Messiah ruling from Jerusalem,

Jesus never mentioned He would rule in Jerusalem. He said repeatedly His kingdom is a spiritual kingdom and not of this world. (John 18: 36, Luke 17: 21)

Then in revelation 20 satan is bound from doing what he was doing previously in the book of revelation.

I would just mention Rev 11: 18 again. "The time of dead to be judged". Where is the only place in the Bible we are given a time table for the dead being judged? Rev 20: 11-15 at the Great White Throne judgment. This is after the 1,000 years that is earlier in Rev 20.

This is how we can tell the seventh trumpet is after the 1,000 years of Rev 20. The dead are being judged. That means we must be in the 1,000 years now and it is symbolic of the current age.

 

[delirious]

Quick video explaining the error of Amillennialism.

Linking a Chuck Missler video (God bless him) is an automatic revocation of your eschatology card, man card and every other card. I'm just teasing you.

His eschatology is very suspect. Great man of God though and I hope he's enjoying himself in the presence of the Lord.

 

[Deade]

what about this? anyone got something?

Yes, see post #93.

I would like to know what the rewarding of the prophets in the verse means to you since you believe the story continues after that trumpet. How are they rewarded?

They are rewarded the same as we are.

Matt. 25:21 "His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

Rev. 22:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

 

[garee]

Quick video explaining the error of Amillennialism.

That was preached as if the reformation put an end the idea that God uses the word thousand to represent a unknown as to whatever is in view whether its things seen or time (amillennial). They both followed after the Amil position .It was not controversial area. The Reformers accepted the long-standing, amil eschatology

Have you looked at the word "thousand" and how it is used in various parables? Makes a great study and remember without parables the signified language of Revelation Christ spoke not.

 

[delirious]

You are right but Isa 26 also talks of resurrection; it says the earth (this old earth) will conceal its dead no more- they shall rise and will hide themselves for a while from the wrath of God on those on earth. This means the resurrection happens during the old earth and the old heaven before the wrath of God, not after the old heaven and earth have passed.

You can read it that way. This is one of those ambiguous passages because of its prophetic nature. The problem with reading it that way is it doesn't line up with the rest of Scripture and also contradicts Job 14: 12.

Isaiah 26: 19-21 is basically talking about the earth casting out her dead, the righteous hiding for a moment and God's wrath having come. It doesn't say the dead are raised before the "heavens are no more".

I'm guessing you are saying that because it tells the righteous to "go into their chambers until the wrath is past". This doesn't have to mean the earth exists at this point and I am convinced it doesn't. Here's why:

In Matthew 13 we have the Parable of the Wheat and Tares in verses 24-30 and then explained to us in verses 36-43. The key verse in this parable that relates to Isaiah 26 is verse 30.

Matthew 13: 30, "Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, "Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.""

"To be burned" is in the future tense meaning it hasn't happened yet. So here in Matthew, just like in Isaiah 26, we see the resurrection taking place of all people (the harvest in Matt 13: 30) and the judgment getting ready to commence.

The "bundling of the tares" in Matthew 13 reminds me of Matthew 25: 31-46 about the sheep and goats judgment were he sets the sheep on His right and the goats on His left. Bundling.

The going "into the chambers" for the righteous in Isa 26: 20 is probably a reference to John 14: 1-3 where Jesus says there are many "mansions" in His Father's house and He goes to prepare a place for us so that where He is we may be also. We probably go into this place after the sheep and goats judgement (Great White Throne) and the wicked are tossed into the lake of fire. This is consistent with the burning in Matt 13: 30 and Rev 20: 15. This is the wrath poured out on the wicked which results in their eternal destruction. We are obviously saved from that being in Christ.

Isaiah 26: 19-21 is too ambiguous to know for sure. This is just the timeline in my mind that I see in the Scriptures. The passage doesn't say it is happening while there is still a heavens and earth. It just says the "dead" are cast out (resurrected) and this would make sense if the earth and heavens were destroyed. We don't see the dead standing before the throne until after the heavens flee away in Rev 20: 11.

This is the best attempt to get around Job 14: 12 presented so far so I give you a star. The passage simply doesn't state that the heavens and earth still exist after the dead are cast out.

 

[Hevosmies]

Yes, see post #93.



They are rewarded the same as we are.

Matt. 25:21 "His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

Rev. 22:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Thanks.

Btw:
How did you get the "called of God" title here?

 

[Deade]

Thanks.

Btw:
How did you get the "called of God" title here?

If you support the website, you can request a custom title from RoboOp.

 

[Hevosmies]

I watched several sermons by David Pawson. Great man of God.

Then agree with him on premillennialism!