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If you hang around church all the time, you never get exposed to the other point-of-views.
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2 verses that refute all forms of Premillennialism
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This website supports me. I love it. Great place to exchange ideas and hear new viewpoints.
If you hang around church all the time, you never get exposed to the other point-of-views.
If you hang around church all the time, you never get exposed to the other point-of-views.
You can read it that way. This is one of those ambiguous passages because of its prophetic nature. The problem with reading it that way is it doesn't line up with the rest of Scripture and also contradicts Job 14: 12.
Isaiah 26: 19-21 is basically talking about the earth casting out her dead, the righteous hiding for a moment and God's wrath having come. It doesn't say the dead are raised before the "heavens are no more".
I'm guessing you are saying that because it tells the righteous to "go into their chambers until the wrath is past". This doesn't have to mean the earth exists at this point and I am convinced it doesn't. Here's why:
In Matthew 13 we have the Parable of the Wheat and Tares in verses 24-30 and then explained to us in verses 36-43. The key verse in this parable that relates to Isaiah 26 is verse 30.
Matthew 13: 30, "Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, "Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.""
"To be burned" is in the future tense meaning it hasn't happened yet. So here in Matthew, just like in Isaiah 26, we see the resurrection taking place of all people (the harvest in Matt 13: 30) and the judgment getting ready to commence.
The "bundling of the tares" in Matthew 13 reminds me of Matthew 25: 31-46 about the sheep and goats judgment were he sets the sheep on His right and the goats on His left. Bundling.
The going "into the chambers" for the righteous in Isa 26: 20 is probably a reference to John 14: 1-3 where Jesus says there are many "mansions" in His Father's house and He goes to prepare a place for us so that where He is we may be also. We probably go into this place after the sheep and goats judgement (Great White Throne) and the wicked are tossed into the lake of fire. This is consistent with the burning in Matt 13: 30 and Rev 20: 15. This is the wrath poured out on the wicked which results in their eternal destruction. We are obviously saved from that being in Christ.
Isaiah 26: 19-21 is too ambiguous to know for sure. This is just the timeline in my mind that I see in the Scriptures. The passage doesn't say it is happening while there is still a heavens and earth. It just says the "dead" are cast out (resurrected) and this would make sense if the earth and heavens were destroyed. We don't see the dead standing before the throne until after the heavens flee away in Rev 20: 11.
This is the best attempt to get around Job 14: 12 presented so far so I give you a star. The passage simply doesn't state that the heavens and earth still exist after the dead are cast out.
Isaiah 26: 19-21 is basically talking about the earth casting out her dead, the righteous hiding for a moment and God's wrath having come. It doesn't say the dead are raised before the "heavens are no more".
I'm guessing you are saying that because it tells the righteous to "go into their chambers until the wrath is past". This doesn't have to mean the earth exists at this point and I am convinced it doesn't. Here's why:
In Matthew 13 we have the Parable of the Wheat and Tares in verses 24-30 and then explained to us in verses 36-43. The key verse in this parable that relates to Isaiah 26 is verse 30.
Matthew 13: 30, "Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, "Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.""
"To be burned" is in the future tense meaning it hasn't happened yet. So here in Matthew, just like in Isaiah 26, we see the resurrection taking place of all people (the harvest in Matt 13: 30) and the judgment getting ready to commence.
The "bundling of the tares" in Matthew 13 reminds me of Matthew 25: 31-46 about the sheep and goats judgment were he sets the sheep on His right and the goats on His left. Bundling.
The going "into the chambers" for the righteous in Isa 26: 20 is probably a reference to John 14: 1-3 where Jesus says there are many "mansions" in His Father's house and He goes to prepare a place for us so that where He is we may be also. We probably go into this place after the sheep and goats judgement (Great White Throne) and the wicked are tossed into the lake of fire. This is consistent with the burning in Matt 13: 30 and Rev 20: 15. This is the wrath poured out on the wicked which results in their eternal destruction. We are obviously saved from that being in Christ.
Isaiah 26: 19-21 is too ambiguous to know for sure. This is just the timeline in my mind that I see in the Scriptures. The passage doesn't say it is happening while there is still a heavens and earth. It just says the "dead" are cast out (resurrected) and this would make sense if the earth and heavens were destroyed. We don't see the dead standing before the throne until after the heavens flee away in Rev 20: 11.
This is the best attempt to get around Job 14: 12 presented so far so I give you a star.
The passage simply doesn't state that the heavens and earth still exist after the dead are cast out.
I have already said that most people are getting lost here:
1. Resurrection
Resurrection of saints is ongoing even now because it is spiritual and not physical. These end times saints are resurrected immediately and indwell living believers and from here they judge living believers and unbelievers together with Jesus. The living believers are the rooms being spoken of in Isa 26 and the maisonettes that John talked about.
The only living believers that will remain on earth at the end are the so called 144k faithful believers, these form the temple of God that will withstand the wrath of God.
2. Christ
Christ means the authority of God here on earth. This authority is given the church and the church is nothing more than the resurrected saints and those they indwell are the spiritual temple (God's dwelling place).
So Christ reigning for a 1000 years is a literal thing- there's going to be a 1000 years after the wrath has wiped out all unbelievers and believers (only that believers will resurrect immediately and join the assembly)
3. Second coming
Christ's second coming is not an event because as point 2 above, Christ comes as the kingdom of God. Means that every time a person believes, Christ has come. That's the reason the bible never uses the term 'second coming', the best description should be, He is and was and is to come the Almighty.
4. Resurrection of unbelievers
This happens after the 1000 years.
Continuation.
#4 above is what Job was talking about because Job most of the time was talking about the unbeliever. The unbeliever will become aware of the happenings (resurrected) after the 1000 years for the final judgement through which also the old earth and heaven will pass. That is why it is said the earth will pass away with all its works.
5. Rapture
There is no such thing as rapture therefore no pretrib/mid trib/post trib.
#4 above is what Job was talking about because Job most of the time was talking about the unbeliever. The unbeliever will become aware of the happenings (resurrected) after the 1000 years for the final judgement through which also the old earth and heaven will pass. That is why it is said the earth will pass away with all its works.
5. Rapture
There is no such thing as rapture therefore no pretrib/mid trib/post trib.
Job is in the canon. What he said is inspired Scripture. If you want to pick and choose what Scriptures are inspired in the Bible then the Bible is not your authority. You are.
The entire chapter of Job 14 is almost entirely literal. The verses are very clear. It's part of the wisdom literature. Rev 20: 11-12 confirm that Job 14: 12 is a factual statement being made by Job under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The connection between those 2 verses couldn't be any more clear and obvious. You refuse to acknowledge it because it proves your eschatology false.
You said this quote denying my claim that the "first resurrection" is spiritual.
Rev 11: 18 tells us the dead are being judged. Rev 20: 11-15 tells us this happens after the 1,000 years. Therefore, the seventh trumpet is after the 1,000 years. Therefore, the "first resurrection" can only be spiritual. Where are you going to fit your 1,000 years with Christ on earth?
You have offered no argument against this verse and the only one that you offered against Job 14: 12 was to deny the inspiration of Scripture.
The entire chapter of Job 14 is almost entirely literal. The verses are very clear. It's part of the wisdom literature. Rev 20: 11-12 confirm that Job 14: 12 is a factual statement being made by Job under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The connection between those 2 verses couldn't be any more clear and obvious. You refuse to acknowledge it because it proves your eschatology false.
You said this quote denying my claim that the "first resurrection" is spiritual.
Rev 11: 18 tells us the dead are being judged. Rev 20: 11-15 tells us this happens after the 1,000 years. Therefore, the seventh trumpet is after the 1,000 years. Therefore, the "first resurrection" can only be spiritual. Where are you going to fit your 1,000 years with Christ on earth?
You have offered no argument against this verse and the only one that you offered against Job 14: 12 was to deny the inspiration of Scripture.
This verse is ambiguous and I haven't examined it enough but let me offer a couple of speculative suggestions.
First, the part that makes it ambiguous is not "the little while". That is pretty clear. The part that makes it ambiguous is "the coming". The question to ask ourselves is how is this "coming" taking place?
Many people think this is in reference to the "second coming" of Christ. The verse doesn't actually say that though and i don't think it is in reference to His second coming. Here are a couple of possibilities:
1. This is in reference to Christ "coming" in judgment on Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The epistle to the Hebrews was written before the old covenant had fully passed away which the content of the epistle makes clear (Heb 8: 13). The temple and Jerusalem were still standing. The Christians being addressed in this epistle were in danger of going back to Judaism. Preterists like this interpretation and it seems like it has at least some merit to it.
2. Another possibility is that "the coming" could be in reference to when a person dies. That's a "little while" for all of us. This is just a personal observation/speculation on my part. My support for this view would be verses like:
Matt 24: 48-50, "But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying His coming,' and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Luke 12: 45-46, But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
It doesn't say "he might come" but that "he will come". These are the "watch" verses in the gospels and in the Olivet discourse. If a person remains in this "unwatchful" state then Christ "will come in judgment" on a day he doesn't expect him. The day of his death.
I really like this second interpretation and it makes sense of the "little while" and "the coming" of Heb 10: 36-39.
First, the part that makes it ambiguous is not "the little while". That is pretty clear. The part that makes it ambiguous is "the coming". The question to ask ourselves is how is this "coming" taking place?
Many people think this is in reference to the "second coming" of Christ. The verse doesn't actually say that though and i don't think it is in reference to His second coming. Here are a couple of possibilities:
1. This is in reference to Christ "coming" in judgment on Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The epistle to the Hebrews was written before the old covenant had fully passed away which the content of the epistle makes clear (Heb 8: 13). The temple and Jerusalem were still standing. The Christians being addressed in this epistle were in danger of going back to Judaism. Preterists like this interpretation and it seems like it has at least some merit to it.
2. Another possibility is that "the coming" could be in reference to when a person dies. That's a "little while" for all of us. This is just a personal observation/speculation on my part. My support for this view would be verses like:
Matt 24: 48-50, "But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying His coming,' and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Luke 12: 45-46, But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
It doesn't say "he might come" but that "he will come". These are the "watch" verses in the gospels and in the Olivet discourse. If a person remains in this "unwatchful" state then Christ "will come in judgment" on a day he doesn't expect him. The day of his death.
I really like this second interpretation and it makes sense of the "little while" and "the coming" of Heb 10: 36-39.
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Not really:
1 Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Paul here talks as if the day was about to come and he knew for sure it was around the corner. He assured his listeners and he confidently counted himself among those that will be alive when the Lord comes.
And here:
2 Cor 4:
11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.
13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.
Here Paul counts himself amongst those that will die and be raised to be caught up together with his 1st century audience.
Can we say Paul was confused? No, he was indeed under the inspiration of the Holy spirit and he knew perfectly what he was talking about. Resurrection is not a distant future, one day event but a daily occurrence in the spiritual realm.
What were all of them waiting for? they were waiting for the Lord to come with those that had slept in the Lord, but what was the Lord waiting for? Peter's death is the one that marked the beginning of Church era as was promised by the Lord.
You can't understand these things unless you understand Daniel's timeline.
1 Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Paul here talks as if the day was about to come and he knew for sure it was around the corner. He assured his listeners and he confidently counted himself among those that will be alive when the Lord comes.
And here:
2 Cor 4:
11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.
13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.
Here Paul counts himself amongst those that will die and be raised to be caught up together with his 1st century audience.
Can we say Paul was confused? No, he was indeed under the inspiration of the Holy spirit and he knew perfectly what he was talking about. Resurrection is not a distant future, one day event but a daily occurrence in the spiritual realm.
What were all of them waiting for? they were waiting for the Lord to come with those that had slept in the Lord, but what was the Lord waiting for? Peter's death is the one that marked the beginning of Church era as was promised by the Lord.
You can't understand these things unless you understand Daniel's timeline.
Dead believers are indwelling living believers? Living believers are the "rooms" of Isa 26: 20? Only 144k believers on earth when Christ returns? You got some wild beliefs. The last one sounds like Jehovah's witnesses. Your claim that you are 100% sure they are correct is subjective and meaningless to me. It is just your opinion. I don't know of a single Christian who would agree with the first 2 statements you made. God bless you anyways.
The rapture is not going to happen; it is a man's doctrine.Read carefully what Paul is saying in 1 Thess4 and 2 Cor 4; he says he will be alive when the Lord comes with dead and also he will be raised and be presented with his 1st century listeners- meaning that resurrection is a contentious thing. The day of the Lord is not a 24hr day but covers all the end times which started in the 1st century- during this time (end times), the saints are resurrected spiritually and they indwell the living believers.
The church/kingdom of God is a spiritual thing that no one can say look there it is or it started there at the pentecost, it started when Peter died and was resurrected.
The church/kingdom of God is a spiritual thing that no one can say look there it is or it started there at the pentecost, it started when Peter died and was resurrected.
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Then how does Paul's death benefit his listeners:
2 Cor 4:
11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.
13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.
What about Peter's death?
2 Pet 1:12So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
2 Cor 4:
11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.
13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.
What about Peter's death?
2 Pet 1:12So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
So, where are the marionettes that the Lord had gone to prepare?
They are right inside believer's hearts as per the same passage:
John 14:1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God a ; believe also in me. 2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.” .....
...23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
They are right inside believer's hearts as per the same passage:
John 14:1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God a ; believe also in me. 2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.” .....
...23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
Before Peter died and was resurrected, the church had not been established and those that died then were referred to by Paul as those that sleep awaiting Lord's coming, but after that, believers don't die or sleep, they are changed in the twinkling of an eye.
1 Cor 15:50I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Again, Paul is counting himself amongst those that are changed in the twinkling of an eye.
This has been happening throughout since 1st century only that we can not see it physically. The spirit of Christ is life- meaning that death can not overcome a believer even for a second. Jesus Himself resurrected immediately after dying because death can not hold the spirit of life.
1 Cor 15:50I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Again, Paul is counting himself amongst those that are changed in the twinkling of an eye.
This has been happening throughout since 1st century only that we can not see it physically. The spirit of Christ is life- meaning that death can not overcome a believer even for a second. Jesus Himself resurrected immediately after dying because death can not hold the spirit of life.
*Marionettes*??? And you think that when Jesus said He was going to prepare a place in Heaven, He actually meant on earth??? And then we have something about Peter dying and being resurrected.
Where is the world is all this nonsense coming from? It seems that there is more and more nonsense circulating today about what the Bible says, when it should be the exact opposite.
Where is the world is all this nonsense coming from? It seems that there is more and more nonsense circulating today about what the Bible says, when it should be the exact opposite.
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