20 Unanswerable Questions for Sabbath/Festival/Torah Keepers

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sparkman

Guest
#21
Your assertion that New Testament Christians were required to follow the teachings of the Pharisees in the synagogue is unsupportable as well.

New Covenant Christians went to the synagogue to hear Scripture but they didn't follow the instructions of the Pharisees. They were underneath the apostle's teachings.

The Apostles led the New Covenant church, not the Pharisees.
7.No instructions are recorded in the Gentile churches regarding how to keep the Sabbath. How do you account for this absence if the Sabbath applies to New Covenant believers?If the Sabbath was applicable, such instruction would have inevitably been a part of the apostolic teachings.

The better question would be: Why would there be instructions on how to honor the sabbath in the NT when this is already revealed in the Torah? At that time, people went to synnagogues to hear the torah read from Moses' seat. Consider Acts 15:21:

Acts 15:21
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#22
This guy accuses non-Sabbathkeepers of being false Christians. By the way, I don't really care what you think of me so please save your opinion. Your remarks about me needing mental health treatment weren't appreciated either. You are on ignore as your remarks aren't worth my bandwidth.
Have you tried to get some help?
 
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sparkman

Guest
#23
3. Often, the claim is made that the Sabbath was a perpetual covenant.The implication is that because the word “perpetual” is used, the Sabbath is required today.However, the same Hebrew word, olam, translated “everlasting”, is used with regards to physical circumcision in Genesis 17:3.

I don't make the mistake of questioning which commandments are required for today, because those commandments aren't burdensome to me. It's not about being required to obey these commandments. It's that we get to. Resting on the sabbath makes me feel closer to the Father, and brings me inner peace. It's gradually become my favorite day of the week.

Why are you calling others who don't do such things "false Christians" if you don't consider them requirements for salvation?
 
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sparkman

Guest
#24
4.The Old Covenant was made between God and Israel.Why do Sabbathkeepers and Torah observers insist that its terms, including the Sabbaths, festivals, clean and unclean meat laws, and triple tithing, apply to New Covenant Christians? New Covenant Christians were never part of this covenant to begin with.See Exodus 31:12-17 to confirm that the Old Covenant was made between God and Israelites.

4.The Old Covenant was made between God and Israel.

A covenant and a law are 2 different things, so this is an invalid question.
The Old Covenant was made between God and Israel. Non-Israelites are not bound by it.

However, if your assertion is that ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant, such as the Sabbath and physical circumcision still apply to New Covenant Christians, that can easily be refuted by my previous explanations regarding Colossians 2:16-17.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...7-sabbath-festival-new-moon-observance-2.html


In addition, I have described in this thread how the language regarding the Sabbath and physical circumcision are similar. Both were signs of the Old Covenant, and not moral absolutes.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/117464-sabbath-circumcision-comparison.html

So, the claims of some Sabbath/festival keepers that those who don't keep them are "false Christians" and are living in sin do not stand.

The Sabbath, holy days, clean and unclean meats, and physical circumcision are not part of God's moral law, which is enduring. They were ceremonial or ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant and are no longer in effect. Accusing individuals who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ of being "false believers" due to their non-adherence to these ceremonial and ritualistic laws is a grave error.
 
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#25
Sparkman our own local Saul. Prosecuting the Sabbath keepers. Hope you feel better now?
 
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sparkman

Guest
#26
Sparkman our own local Saul. Prosecuting the Sabbath keepers. Hope you feel better now?
I have no issue with Sabbathkeepers, assuming they don't claim that non-Sabbathkeepers are following a false form of Christianity and are not teaching that Sabbathkeeping is a condition, requirement, or necessary fruit of salvation.

It is the other ones, who claim that those who don't keep the Sabbath are unbelievers and are judging them that I am focused upon. There is a group that tends to try to bully non-Sabbathkeepers and assert that they are inferior spiritually. Judaizers would be the term for them. I do not apply this label to those who keep the Sabbath out of preference or individual conscience without judging others.

By the way I am an ex Sabbathkeeper so I am amply able to defend the position that Sabbath, feasts and clean/unclean meat laws do not apply to New Covenant believers, else I would not have discontinued these practices.

Comparing my former Sabbathkeeping fellowship with my current Evangelical Free fellowship convinces me that the fruits are not good. Many Sabbathkeepers are not focused on the primary message of the gospel, which is placing one's faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Sabbathkeeping groups tend to focus on the need to keep the Law, and by that they mean ceremonial aspects such as the Sabbath, annual festivals, clean and unclean meats, and sometimes physical circumcision. They do not focus on God's eternal moral law, but on these elements, and declare themselves superior based on their practices in these areas.

If someone wants to observe Saturday as a matter of preference, though, I find no reason to criticize them. Romans 14 allows for that.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#27
Sparkman our own local Saul. Prosecuting the Sabbath keepers. Hope you feel better now?
Saul persecuted Christians, by the way. He was a Pharisee who was a Sabbathkeeper so the analogy doesn't fit.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#28
Sparkman our own local Saul. Prosecuting the Sabbath keepers. Hope you feel better now?
My position on this is outlined carefully. It is Judaizers who tend to judge others as unsaved or spiritually inferior. Colossians 2:16-17 says not to allow them to judge Christians in this manner. I am simply following the Apostolic commandment.

The New Testament clearly portrays those who claim elements of the Old Covenant applies to Christians as being judgmental and trying to inflict their bad understanding on New Covenant believers:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-old-covenant-observance-causes-division.html


In addition, my list is a response to a Sabbathkeeper who was trying to do this in two different threads, based on information he was parroting from a Judaizing website:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114682-unanswerable-questions-extended.html\
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114490-unanswerable-questions.html

I have no issue with those who worship on Saturday as a matter of preference or individual conscience without claiming others need to.

As I said, I am a former Sabbathkeeper, for over a decade with Worldwide Church of God, so I know the judgmental attitude that accompanies the Sabbathkeeping mentality. I will not allow others to be troubled by assertions that are iinvalid and are refutable.
 
2

2Tim3v16_17

Guest
#29
sparkman,

This is not about salvation, the scriptures is clear it is about faith in Jesus, but there is plenty about the law in the new covenant to keep it in love and to be set apart.

I take it you know about the circumcision party Paul preached against, they wanted the people to be circumcised and said that is where their salvation lies and Paul was rightfully against that.

all teachings of Paul against the law is in regards to obtaining salvation by keeping the law. Which cannot be done.
What is your take on this verse of Paul

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but faith working through love

what is faith working through love?

2Jn 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.


1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.



Joh 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

What was the doctrine then that Jesus preached? The doctrine of the Father
Pro 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.

What is your take on this?
1Jn 2:6 The one who says that he abides in him must live the same way he himself lived. (ISV)

The law does three thing, bless us, curse us, show us what sin is.

Deu 30:15 "Look, today I have set before you life and what is good, along with death and what is evil.
Deu 30:16 That's why I'm commanding you today to love the LORD your God by walking in his ways and by observing his commands, statutes, and ordinances, so that you may live long, increase, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in the land that you are about to enter to possess....
Deu 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to testify against you today! I've set life and death before you today: both blessings and curses.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

So the curse is gone, what about the blessings, what about identifying what sin is. You should here the testimonies of people, the blessings once the start following torah. The blessings are not done away with.


Who would you say is the woman in Rev. the dragon is mad at. I go for Jerusalem/Israel, cause of the man child indication.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

why not just the testimony of Jesus.
Why not, which keep the commandments of Jesus and His testimony, but specifically God's commandments.

Ezekiel 34, why would God remove His sheep from the shepherds in the last days. If the Christian Church is the way to go.
now before you say, this is for Israel we are Israel

Eph 2:12 At that time you were without the Messiah, excluded from citizenship in Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise. You had no hope and were in the world without God.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances(dogma); for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Dogma - opinions, judgments and decrees of men, it can't be the law of God as it will be in contrasts with the below and with what Jesus and Paul have said else where

even the one new man in Christ get this instruction from Paul.
Eph 6:2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with a promise:



Regarding 1 John 3 v4 , maybe you should take a look at the root word clear things up for you,

G3551


νόμος
nomos
nom'-os
From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law.

What is your take on the book of James

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

law here is the same as G3551 above. The law is now freedom, cause the curse is removed via Jesus and only the blessings remain for keeping it.

The old and new covenant has been made with Israel.

Jer 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (together it is Israel), I take it you know about the 2/10 split of the tribes of Israel

How did you become part of this new covenant, if it was not made with you as "gentile"? crafted-in correct?
you became Israel, heirs of the promise to Abram. Jesus said I came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


there is just to many things to post, a few things to remember.
1. it is not about salvation, but out of love.
2. When these new testament was written they only scripture available was the old testament.
3. keeping the above in mind gives new meaning to 2 Tim 3 16-17
4. When NT writers preached against the law, it was in context of keeping it for salvation.
5. clean\unclean food, you need to look at the context better, it was about meat sold in the markets whether they should try to find out if it was offered to idols or not.

Jesus saying it is not what goes into your mouth that makes you unclean, context is about washing your hands, which the pharisees asked Him about, He is not saying you can eat pig now.
Then Jesus would have taught against the Torah and he would not have been the able to die for our sin as he would have broken the same law that brought death over us. He also would be contradicting Himself, by saying nothing in the law will change till all be fulfilled.

The all food in Noah that can be eaten, is actually if you do your research on those words used, it is all food that is set apart. Why would God tell Noah take one pair of the unclean and seven pairs of the clean animals, then when they get out He tells Noah you can eat all. What if Noah ate the unclean once, the reason for the animals on the ark was to keep them alive, now he gets off the ark an have the option to eat a spices to distinction.

and we can go on...
6. How is there something like Jesus law, if He said He does not bring His own gospel but that of the one who send Him.
 
2

2Tim3v16_17

Guest
#30
2Pet 3:15 (KJV) And account [that] the longsuffering of our Master [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
This is the truth that Paul was writing. Our Master Yahushua is salvation. Not the law.
2Pet 3:16 (KJV) As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest (or twist), as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
This is a warning from Peter (Kepha) that Paul's writings are hard to understand and if we are unlearned (in the rest of Yahweh's word) it is easy to get confused and end up twisting the scripture to say something it is not because of our lack of understanding. Those who claim that the law is done away with do not have a thing to base their beliefs on unless they turn to either Acts 15 or Paul's epistles. Neither James nor John nor Peter have anything in their writings that appear on the surface to say the law is done away with. This is why Peter (Kepha) warns us. In fact He says that we can twist Paul's writings to our own destruction! Now think about this. Who will be destroyed on the last day? Matthew 7:21-23 in the New King James version says it well:
Matt 7:21 Not every one that says unto Me, Master, Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?
23 (KJV) And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you: depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Who are those many who claim Yahushua yet practice lawlessness? The word here in the Greek language is from Strong's 458:
458. anomia an-om-ee'-ah from 459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:--iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
Now I am not saying that if we are ignorant of this that we are damned. For if even a brand new believer who knows very little about our Father's will for his life fails to keep His word due to his lack of knowledge, there is grace available. The real issue is are we seeking to do His will? Are we willingly ignorant? Once we realize what His will is for us, do we respond with a willing heart of obedience? Whether a new believer, a long-time believer or any of us.. these are the heart-searching questions.
What I see here is that there will be a large number of people who claim to call Him their Master, but don't bother to do the will of the Heavenly Father. This is not our goal, I hope. Our goal is to depart from "violation of the law."
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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#31
4.The Old Covenant was made between God and Israel.Why do Sabbathkeepers and Torah observers insist that its terms, including the Sabbaths, festivals, clean and unclean meat laws, and triple tithing, apply to New Covenant Christians? New Covenant Christians were never part of this covenant to begin with.See Exodus 31:12-17 to confirm that the Old Covenant was made between God and Israelites.



The Old Covenant was made between God and Israel. .

my understanding is all the covenents is with Israel,

and all will have one law, and all will observe the Sabbath.


the bible says the oracles of God was given [to us] in the N.T.
 
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prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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#32
My position on this is outlined carefully. It is Judaizers who tend to judge others as unsaved or spiritually inferior. Colossians 2:16-17 says not to allow them to judge Christians in this manner. I am simply following the Apostolic commandment.

.
again and again Sparkman you [accuse others] and judge them,
just to push your views and make them look bad, that verse was for people like you
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#35
As it seemed Jesus Himself was "chastised" by the scribes and pharisees, because, the disciples were picking corn and eating it ON THE SABBATH!! (OH!!!, HEAVENS!!), Jesus answered thusly: "Was the Sabbath made for man?......Or, was man made for the Sabbath?" HMMMM!! Reckon it depends on whose eyes one views these with, eh? I'll venture a step further, and ask: Was the law made for man?..Or, was man made for the law?
 
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sparkman

Guest
#36
again and again Sparkman you [accuse others] and judge them,
just to push your views and make them look bad, that verse was for people like you
Since someone else quoted this, I saw your remark and will respond.

It is your Armstrongite groups that claim that the rest of Christianity is following a "counterfeit Christianity", a "false gospel" and they are the "synagogue of Satan". They call the rest of pastors in orthodox Christianity "ministers of Satan".

I was one of you guys for a decade so I know what is taught. I see your posts and their teachings are clearly reflected in your posts...so why would you be indignant? You are the accusers. Orthodox Christianity, for the most part, doesn't even know Armstrongites exist.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#37
2Pet 3:15 (KJV) And account [that] the longsuffering of our Master [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
This is the truth that Paul was writing. Our Master Yahushua is salvation. Not the law.
2Pet 3:16 (KJV) As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest (or twist), as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
This is a warning from Peter (Kepha) that Paul's writings are hard to understand and if we are unlearned (in the rest of Yahweh's word) it is easy to get confused and end up twisting the scripture to say something it is not because of our lack of understanding. Those who claim that the law is done away with do not have a thing to base their beliefs on unless they turn to either Acts 15 or Paul's epistles. Neither James nor John nor Peter have anything in their writings that appear on the surface to say the law is done away with. This is why Peter (Kepha) warns us. In fact He says that we can twist Paul's writings to our own destruction! Now think about this. Who will be destroyed on the last day? Matthew 7:21-23 in the New King James version says it well:
Matt 7:21 Not every one that says unto Me, Master, Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?
23 (KJV) And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you: depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Who are those many who claim Yahushua yet practice lawlessness? The word here in the Greek language is from Strong's 458:
458. anomia an-om-ee'-ah from 459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:--iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
Now I am not saying that if we are ignorant of this that we are damned. For if even a brand new believer who knows very little about our Father's will for his life fails to keep His word due to his lack of knowledge, there is grace available. The real issue is are we seeking to do His will? Are we willingly ignorant? Once we realize what His will is for us, do we respond with a willing heart of obedience? Whether a new believer, a long-time believer or any of us.. these are the heart-searching questions.
What I see here is that there will be a large number of people who claim to call Him their Master, but don't bother to do the will of the Heavenly Father. This is not our goal, I hope. Our goal is to depart from "violation of the law."
With regards to I John 3:4, this verse is comparing behavior with motivation. The entire book of I John is talking about antiChrists. Orthodox Christians are not antichrist.

You are taking this verse out of context.

Sin (hamartia) is caused by rebellion (anomia).

Note that you must go to the KJV to get the phrase "transgression of the law".

By the way, even if you use that rendering "transgression of the law", one could simply state this is talking about God's moral law and not the Old Covenant.

Also, if you claim it is talking about transgressing the Old Covenant, do you throw your sisters, daughters, and wives out of the home during their menstrual cycle? Do you throw away sofas that a menstruous woman sat upon as unclean? If not, then you are not keeping the Old Covenant.

Do you wear tassels on your garments? Do you think physical circumcision or animal sacrifices are still required? All of these things were required under the Old Covenant. If you claim it still applies, and that any deviation from it is sin, then you need to keep the whole thing.

In addition, the Old Covenant was made with ancient Israel. We are not ancient Israel. Your claims that the Old Covenant apply to all Christians are bogus.

Regarding your use of "ignorant and unstable people", I agree that the writings of Paul are easily twisted by ignorant and unstable people such as Judaizers. I used that verse as a Judaizer to accuse others of being ignorant and unstable, then I learned that as a Judaizer I was ignorant and unstable :)