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Ah, I see what you mean now. But I maintain that neither it nor the hebrew equivalent mean "forever."
But, if aeon means "beyond comprehension" instead of "forever", then the wicked suffer a punishment that is beyond comprehension in magnitude, the point that is necessary for correction.
And others receive life beyond comprehension.
Eternity is a given. "Beyond comprehension" in general, is a greater concept to struggle with.
If we stick to the idea that KJV got all the meanings right with "hell" and "forever", then we are left still with a contradiction in the concept of "hell", which is, how can one be lifted out of hell per psalm 16?
Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
But, if aeon means "beyond comprehension" instead of "forever", then the wicked suffer a punishment that is beyond comprehension in magnitude, the point that is necessary for correction.
And others receive life beyond comprehension.
Eternity is a given. "Beyond comprehension" in general, is a greater concept to struggle with.
If we stick to the idea that KJV got all the meanings right with "hell" and "forever", then we are left still with a contradiction in the concept of "hell", which is, how can one be lifted out of hell per psalm 16?
Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Of course we have eternal life. But not all will receive a life so bountiful that the cap is actually lifted.
A quality and state of life that is "beyond imagination."
The premise here is that God, if He is all knowing and does only what is right, would not have created a single person knowing before hand that it would be necessary to torment that person forever, or allow him to be tormented forever. It would be at least, a waste of resources.
And we have the free will to choose how the relationship works:
Psalm 18
26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
27 For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.
28 For thou wilt light my candle: YHWH my Elohe will enlighten my darkness.
29 For by thee I have run through a troop; and by my Elohe have I leaped over a wall.
We, as simple humans, would never purposely father a child if we knew without a doubt before hand that the child would be tormented forever, would we? Except as a result of lust of the flesh, which God, through Jesus Christ was tested against and passed with flying colors. So He didn't "oops" when He made us.
He wouldn't begin a partially hopeless endeavor, or that would call him lustful for a select few at the pre-calculated cost of many. Wouldn't it? To create billions just so He could get millions and discard the rest?
32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3 Because I will publish the name of YHWH: ascribe ye greatness unto our Elohe.
4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: an El of truth and without iniquity (unfairness), just and right is He.
A quality and state of life that is "beyond imagination."
The premise here is that God, if He is all knowing and does only what is right, would not have created a single person knowing before hand that it would be necessary to torment that person forever, or allow him to be tormented forever. It would be at least, a waste of resources.
And we have the free will to choose how the relationship works:
Psalm 18
26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
27 For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.
28 For thou wilt light my candle: YHWH my Elohe will enlighten my darkness.
29 For by thee I have run through a troop; and by my Elohe have I leaped over a wall.
We, as simple humans, would never purposely father a child if we knew without a doubt before hand that the child would be tormented forever, would we? Except as a result of lust of the flesh, which God, through Jesus Christ was tested against and passed with flying colors. So He didn't "oops" when He made us.
He wouldn't begin a partially hopeless endeavor, or that would call him lustful for a select few at the pre-calculated cost of many. Wouldn't it? To create billions just so He could get millions and discard the rest?
32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3 Because I will publish the name of YHWH: ascribe ye greatness unto our Elohe.
4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: an El of truth and without iniquity (unfairness), just and right is He.
T
If punishment is temporary, and those who died un-saved, will eventually, be saved, then, those who
died "saved" will only be temporary, and thus risk sinning and falling under punishment, and going to
hell. Problem with that is, you can't be saved twice. It would be in the best interest of all people to
reject Jesus in this life, if there is no ever lasting punishment and no ever lasting salvation.
This mindset teaches "all" people will be saved and its ok to reject Jesus in this life. This is the
spirit of anti-christ.
died "saved" will only be temporary, and thus risk sinning and falling under punishment, and going to
hell. Problem with that is, you can't be saved twice. It would be in the best interest of all people to
reject Jesus in this life, if there is no ever lasting punishment and no ever lasting salvation.
This mindset teaches "all" people will be saved and its ok to reject Jesus in this life. This is the
spirit of anti-christ.
Sorry, I missed that maybe? Why would those dying saved be temporary?
I don't get the idea of being saved twice. Unfortunately, there's two seperate ideas here about salvation that get intertwined. 1. Resurrection from actual true permanent destruction. Which is in fact what happens when we physically die. There is nothing left of us, except a nature, the spirit, which returns to God from which it was protruding the whole time, the mind, memory, body, etc. all returning to dust.
2. Salvation from our sins, the sins of others, the current horrible state of the world.
The second one is the proper "salvation" we are left seeking, because the first one was taken care of for all men period. All of them are resurrected either at Christ's return, or at the great judgment. They are not brought back from an acceptable punishment that was automatic by design, just so they can be told "I told you so, now into the furnace".
We have been promised being brought back to life, period. That is what Jesus actually paid for.
The part that is optional, and leads to salvation from our sinful state, and from the punishment for being in it, which is the lake of fire, that comes after our resurrection.
Those who repent and follow Christ because He did this, are "saved" in the only sense that we need to be worried about.
I don't believe so. I don't think the punishment for unrepentant sin is to receive a smack on the wrist.
Not according to what I've seen in scripture.
I hardly agree with any of that last part. It's not ok to reject Jesus, though He did say it would be forgiven.
And to claim and thrive on His own words are not the spirit of "instead of Christ":
"When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me."
...unless I preach that He made that statement in vain.
What sin does one commit by simply denying eternal torment? It has no outward condemnation, no judgment necessary, it leaves the judgment up to God.
Believing in the name of Jesus is far deeper than His literal name on paper, or a sinner's prayer, unless that's the magnitude of a particular person's ability to understand. And those meek shall inherit the earth.
The Book Of Psalms " The Holy Bible" Complete Chapters 1 - 150 - YouTube
I don't get the idea of being saved twice. Unfortunately, there's two seperate ideas here about salvation that get intertwined. 1. Resurrection from actual true permanent destruction. Which is in fact what happens when we physically die. There is nothing left of us, except a nature, the spirit, which returns to God from which it was protruding the whole time, the mind, memory, body, etc. all returning to dust.
2. Salvation from our sins, the sins of others, the current horrible state of the world.
The second one is the proper "salvation" we are left seeking, because the first one was taken care of for all men period. All of them are resurrected either at Christ's return, or at the great judgment. They are not brought back from an acceptable punishment that was automatic by design, just so they can be told "I told you so, now into the furnace".
We have been promised being brought back to life, period. That is what Jesus actually paid for.
The part that is optional, and leads to salvation from our sinful state, and from the punishment for being in it, which is the lake of fire, that comes after our resurrection.
Those who repent and follow Christ because He did this, are "saved" in the only sense that we need to be worried about.
I don't believe so. I don't think the punishment for unrepentant sin is to receive a smack on the wrist.
Not according to what I've seen in scripture.
I hardly agree with any of that last part. It's not ok to reject Jesus, though He did say it would be forgiven.
And to claim and thrive on His own words are not the spirit of "instead of Christ":
"When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me."
...unless I preach that He made that statement in vain.
What sin does one commit by simply denying eternal torment? It has no outward condemnation, no judgment necessary, it leaves the judgment up to God.
Believing in the name of Jesus is far deeper than His literal name on paper, or a sinner's prayer, unless that's the magnitude of a particular person's ability to understand. And those meek shall inherit the earth.
The Book Of Psalms " The Holy Bible" Complete Chapters 1 - 150 - YouTube
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Because you don't get saved anyway, from the punishment. And it's not a cakewalk punishment. It goes deeper to the core than a person can comprehend, which should be a sufficient deterrent for sin.
If it's as bad as it can get to start with, there's nothing to gain by claiming it goes on forever.
It also contains a promise that the unsaved will not receive the same reward as the saved.
Plenty of reason to follow Jesus.
If it's as bad as it can get to start with, there's nothing to gain by claiming it goes on forever.
It also contains a promise that the unsaved will not receive the same reward as the saved.
Plenty of reason to follow Jesus.
I don't think so. At some point it comes down to motive and outlook. Otherwise only the mind is changed, not the Spirit.
Here's an attempt though. Again, it's all in the mindset of the reader, who is instructed to hear what the Spirit says, not a historical record or literal story...
"When Antipas, my faithful martyr, was slain among you, where satan dwells."
Antipas is the "opposer of all" and is among you, in your temple.
Among me, in my temple.
Grain and chaff, grow on the same stalk.
Wheat and tares, grow from the same field.
Two men in the bed, same man.
Paul talked ad nauseum about his struggle with his two halves, "am I righteous, or am I scum of the earth?" dialogue throughout.
Here's an attempt though. Again, it's all in the mindset of the reader, who is instructed to hear what the Spirit says, not a historical record or literal story...
"When Antipas, my faithful martyr, was slain among you, where satan dwells."
Antipas is the "opposer of all" and is among you, in your temple.
Among me, in my temple.
Grain and chaff, grow on the same stalk.
Wheat and tares, grow from the same field.
Two men in the bed, same man.
Paul talked ad nauseum about his struggle with his two halves, "am I righteous, or am I scum of the earth?" dialogue throughout.
No, the fear should increase greatly, when one entertains the thought that they have been taught to call God evil, and never saw it coming.
I wouldn't call the issue of God being good or evil a watering down by any means.
Yes, please note as stated earlier in the thread, that at no fault of any of ours, we have been given a translation of scripture that does not capture the accurate meanings of a LOT of words, but has been preserved sufficiently via symbolism, by God's design, and leaves a message that is discerned based on the intent of the heart, rather than any kind of evidence, i.e. lust of the flesh.
It's easy for them to mess up pronouns, even definitions of "concept" type language. But it's hard with little point, to mess up words like "fire", "tree", "water", etc. (except for some of the more recent worse translations that re-word entire phrases.)
The translation in question being of the words "olam" and "aeon", which were translated as if they are attached to time, when they originally were not attached to time, but rather to extent in general.
In the old testament, a reference to time uses accessory words with "olam" to attach it to time, or a different word altogether.
In Psalm 13:1 for example, "forever" is translated appropriately from "nesah", unlike times when "olam" (beyond point of sight) was translated as "forever"
Same effect with "aeon" in NT.
"Incomprehensible punishment" and "Incomprehensible life" rather than "eternal"
I wouldn't call the issue of God being good or evil a watering down by any means.
Yes, please note as stated earlier in the thread, that at no fault of any of ours, we have been given a translation of scripture that does not capture the accurate meanings of a LOT of words, but has been preserved sufficiently via symbolism, by God's design, and leaves a message that is discerned based on the intent of the heart, rather than any kind of evidence, i.e. lust of the flesh.
It's easy for them to mess up pronouns, even definitions of "concept" type language. But it's hard with little point, to mess up words like "fire", "tree", "water", etc. (except for some of the more recent worse translations that re-word entire phrases.)
The translation in question being of the words "olam" and "aeon", which were translated as if they are attached to time, when they originally were not attached to time, but rather to extent in general.
In the old testament, a reference to time uses accessory words with "olam" to attach it to time, or a different word altogether.
In Psalm 13:1 for example, "forever" is translated appropriately from "nesah", unlike times when "olam" (beyond point of sight) was translated as "forever"
Same effect with "aeon" in NT.
"Incomprehensible punishment" and "Incomprehensible life" rather than "eternal"
K
I appreciate the courtesty of your replies. I believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and that it is not up for debate. I believe that what Jesus is quoted as saying is absolute fact and not in error.
I won't consider my feelings, motives or outlook because they change on a daily basis. God doesn't change and to rely on my thoughts and feelings as a flawed human being is beyond arrogant. I don't go there. Very dangerous territory you are on if you ask me.
God Bless!
I won't consider my feelings, motives or outlook because they change on a daily basis. God doesn't change and to rely on my thoughts and feelings as a flawed human being is beyond arrogant. I don't go there. Very dangerous territory you are on if you ask me.
God Bless!
I'm not basing the fact that we have eternal life on the word rendered "eternal" in the bible.
I'm basing it on the fact that eternity is simply a given.
Most people innately imagine living "forever" after physical death, at least religious people do, and God isn't teasing us with that innate concept.
He isn't dangling it like a carrot in front of a horse.
I'm not using "eternal" meaning time to prove both of those points, I'm using another definition.
If I believe "aeon" means "beyond imagination", nothing to do with time, then yes, it fits both ways.
1. Punishment is not go on forever, rather, it is beyond imagination.
2. Life beyond imagination has nothing inherently to do with living forever, it has to do with quality of life, whatever that reward is for those who follow Jesus.
Primarily though, the translation is a smaller matter than the reputation of God, which He says He will uphold in the sight of the unbelievers when He deals with the rest of us.
I'm basing it on the fact that eternity is simply a given.
Most people innately imagine living "forever" after physical death, at least religious people do, and God isn't teasing us with that innate concept.
He isn't dangling it like a carrot in front of a horse.
I'm not using "eternal" meaning time to prove both of those points, I'm using another definition.
If I believe "aeon" means "beyond imagination", nothing to do with time, then yes, it fits both ways.
1. Punishment is not go on forever, rather, it is beyond imagination.
2. Life beyond imagination has nothing inherently to do with living forever, it has to do with quality of life, whatever that reward is for those who follow Jesus.
Primarily though, the translation is a smaller matter than the reputation of God, which He says He will uphold in the sight of the unbelievers when He deals with the rest of us.
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Would it?
I can do all things, but not all is benificial.
It is the purposes of the heart that will be shown to men. Without sounding judgemental, it is your heart that says this.
'I need reward for good works'.
Let me ask you, hypothetically; if all will sin, and all sin willingly at times, committing the unpardonable sin then, by ignoring good work and crucifying Christ again, then how do you expect that your unforgivable sin is treated?
How is your willful sinning able to be cleansed and yet an 'unbelievers' is not?
Paul says he also does what he knows he shouldnt. As does every person on earth.
So the only difference is that a christian might say 'i do my good works for a place in heaven', or, by covering this, some will say 'I do my good works for God'.
So if your actions of love and charity are not to 'get into heaven', then they are for God, yes? For love? For peace? For joy?
Is this not enough reason in itself? Without the 'I'll be in heaven and those sinners won't'.
It is the heart of men that makes God into a contradiction.
I can tell you, both mine and your sin will be cast into fire, purged and washed away, and thst action stands witness that we may never sin again. For how can we be in heaven. and have the ability to sin? I ask that not just of believers, but also of unbelievers. None can be perfect without Christ.
An action done for a brother, as a samaritan, to help them only for helps sake, that is an action done for God.
For how can I love my God, who I can not see, if I do not love my brother, who I can see.
I can do all things, but not all is benificial.
It is the purposes of the heart that will be shown to men. Without sounding judgemental, it is your heart that says this.
'I need reward for good works'.
Let me ask you, hypothetically; if all will sin, and all sin willingly at times, committing the unpardonable sin then, by ignoring good work and crucifying Christ again, then how do you expect that your unforgivable sin is treated?
How is your willful sinning able to be cleansed and yet an 'unbelievers' is not?
Paul says he also does what he knows he shouldnt. As does every person on earth.
So the only difference is that a christian might say 'i do my good works for a place in heaven', or, by covering this, some will say 'I do my good works for God'.
So if your actions of love and charity are not to 'get into heaven', then they are for God, yes? For love? For peace? For joy?
Is this not enough reason in itself? Without the 'I'll be in heaven and those sinners won't'.
It is the heart of men that makes God into a contradiction.
I can tell you, both mine and your sin will be cast into fire, purged and washed away, and thst action stands witness that we may never sin again. For how can we be in heaven. and have the ability to sin? I ask that not just of believers, but also of unbelievers. None can be perfect without Christ.
An action done for a brother, as a samaritan, to help them only for helps sake, that is an action done for God.
For how can I love my God, who I can not see, if I do not love my brother, who I can see.
God tells us to love even our enemies. And people will make God's seeming 'enemies', (a better translation being 'adversaries'), their enemies. So then one is not loving their enemies.
But read this, just one of many parts of Timothy and Paul and John which explain the real premise of Jesus' death;
Therefore, I beg of you that before anything else, you will offer supplications to God, and prayers for the sake of Kings and rulers, and intercessions and thanksgiving for the sake of all people, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil way of life in complete reverence to God and purity. For this is pleasing and acceptable before God, our Lifegiver; He who wills that all people shall have Life, and that all shall be converted to the knowledge of the truth. For God is One, and The Mediator of God and of the sons of men is One: The Son of Man, Yeshua The Messiah, Who gave himself as a ransom in the place of every person; a testimony which is to be proven in its time.
But read this, just one of many parts of Timothy and Paul and John which explain the real premise of Jesus' death;
Therefore, I beg of you that before anything else, you will offer supplications to God, and prayers for the sake of Kings and rulers, and intercessions and thanksgiving for the sake of all people, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil way of life in complete reverence to God and purity. For this is pleasing and acceptable before God, our Lifegiver; He who wills that all people shall have Life, and that all shall be converted to the knowledge of the truth. For God is One, and The Mediator of God and of the sons of men is One: The Son of Man, Yeshua The Messiah, Who gave himself as a ransom in the place of every person; a testimony which is to be proven in its time.