3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

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John146

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The whosoever has stipulations and that is to hear spiritual things, thirst for spiritual things, take of the water (spiritual word) of life freely, which the natural man will not walk in a door that stipulates those spiritual things.
The Spirit leads a man to know that salvation is through Jesus Christ. It’s up to the man to believe.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
The scriptures just told you "who the whosoever's are" That it is not the natural man, but the spiritual man.

not at all

does anyone have the Holy Spirit before they have accepted Christ?

let's see that scripture that specifically tells us that God fills a person with His Spirit prior to salvation

get serious
 

Whispered

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The only ones that will hear, thirst and take the water of life freely are those who have already been born again. The natural man (1 Cor 2:14) thinks all of that spiritual stuff is foolishness.
I would suggest it is foolishness to misrepresent the words of Jesus in His Father's own book.


Samaritans and Jews were at odds in Jesus' day. The Samaritan woman at the well was not born again when she met Jesus at the well.

The Book of John chapter 4:7A woman from Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give me a drink.” 8 (For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.) 9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) 10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” 11 The woman said to him, “Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob? He gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock.” 13 Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again.[b] The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” 15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water, so that I will not be thirsty or have to come here to draw water.”
 

Whispered

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Being chosen as a prophet is not the same as being elected under NT salvation.
How so? Would God choose someone to be His prophet if they were not elected by His grace to serve His purpose?
Otherwise, would we argue God chooses the unrighteous to be His prophets?How would they know to deliver the words of God if they were not of God first?
 

John146

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How so? Would God choose someone to be His prophet if they were not elected by His grace to serve His purpose?
Otherwise, would we argue God chooses the unrighteous to be His prophets?How would they know to deliver the words of God if they were not of God first?
Was the prophet under NT salvation by believing the death, burial and resurrection for sin? That was my point.
 

cv5

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The scripture already 'had at it', when we are told Satan was in that son of Simon. Satan is that one doomed to destruction.
What would we believe of our precious God were we to accept that God used Judas so as to have Jesus fulfill the mission He was born for, and after Jesus Himself told Judas to go and do what he must do quickly, if the reward for insuring the final blood sacrifice for the sins of the world was eternal destruction?
Judas repented of the sin he was actually not personally responsible for being Satan was in him. He returned the silver to the elders of the temple who sought to buy the Savior of the world's life for thirty silver shekels of Tyros. They wanted to kill the Messiah , charging Him with blasphemy, to assure their status as leaders of God's chosen. And yet, they used Rome's currency, and their authority to renounce that prophecy fulfilled; Messiah come.

Did they repent of that? Do they to this day? Or are there Jews they'd consider apostate that have become apostate because they know Messiah was Emmanuel.
They walked to Golgotha and watched their plotting unfold to its end. Having insured that it would not be Jesus released as per the tradition just before Passover, of setting one prisoner free, as the Romans bade it happen time and again year after year. And using their authority over their Jewish congregants to chant for release of a zealot and a thief instead; Barabbas. [The Book of Matthew chapter 27]

Judas repented, returned the silver, and put himself on God's mercies as he hanged himself from a tree. Being a Jew, knowing full well what that meant; cursed is anyone who dies on a tree. The Book of Deuteronomy chapter 22.

I believe he was forgiven. Because God tells us it was Satan within him doing these things. And the man when he realized what he had done was ashamed.
Jesus said from the cross, and this for me is key proof of that, Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
Judas, under Satan's control, did not know what he was doing. But Satan did.

Satan is the son of Perdition destined to destruction. Why do I believe this? Because Jesus chose Judas to be His Disciple. And told Judas in the upper room where the first communion was to take place, go and do what ye must do quickly.
Satan cannot do anything God doesn't permit him to do. The Book of Job chapter 1.
I have to tell you....somebody declaring Judas as "saved" is a first for me. I have never enountered that docrine in any commentary either.

I strongly suspect that you are a universalist. I hope u see differently in the fullness of time.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
All God asks that we give to Him is belief, trust. In the final analysis, the elect are not some special group who are first chosen prior to demonstrating any faith in Christ.
Oh yes! They are!
There are some whom God "predestined" to be "born in flesh" at a "particular point" during the timeline of this current earth/heaven age.
God knows who they are, and into what circumstances they will be born into.

This special group of people, calvinists or not, seem to have a more fuller understanding of "predestination/God is in control" "micro-managment", of God, and "people called by His name", as well as the fulfilling of His will and good pleasure, that the "free-will" of mankind erodes continually. Which leads us to His "Irresistible Grace."

Meaning, and I know you have stated "forcing", and indeed it may well be a "forcing" by God. Which in itself begs the question Is God "sovereign?", or not? And, if in one's mind, God is sovereign? Then "why should His forcing", be such a problem to you? Or anyone else, for that matter.

Perhaps you don't understand irresistible, or forcing. Do you think God can put an individual in such a position, or line of thinking, whereby EVERY way "out", or every "argument", logical or not, one can make in refusing is methodically, and systematically, stripped away? Leaving one with No OTHER Option, SAVE Acceptance? The answer is: "Of course!" "God can do ANYTHING He wants!"

But, let's not get the cart too far in front of the horse here. I know you're asking, "Why would ANYONE refuse in the first place?" Right?

That is answered quite simply in this 6 worded phrase:
"Lean not on your own understanding!"
That's the "crux of the biscuit." In a "nutshell."

Because, God's methodology, in "regenerating, rejuvenating, also called healing", of one's heart, soul, mind, spirit, flesh, as well as strength?
Is GOING to (NOT SHALL) take one to places that one is NOT going to understand, in this "healing process."

Why? Because God knows you, better then you know you! (FACT)
Places where "sin abounds", that "LOVE", just doesn't cover! (FACT)
Isaiah 28

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (all the fruit of the Spirit...NOT just love! ALL!)

1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
 

TooFastTurtle

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Apr 10, 2019
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not at all

does anyone have the Holy Spirit before they have accepted Christ?

let's see that scripture that specifically tells us that God fills a person with His Spirit prior to salvation

get serious
John the Baptist comes to mind. He had the Spirit before receiving anything

But he was an exception to the rule.
 

Whispered

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Oh yes! They are!
There are some whom God "predestined" to be "born in flesh" at a "particular point" during the timeline of this current earth/heaven age.
God knows who they are, and into what circumstances they will be born into.

This special group of people, calvinists or not, seem to have a more fuller understanding of "predestination/God is in control" "micro-managment", of God, and "people called by His name", as well as the fulfilling of His will and good pleasure, that the "free-will" of mankind erodes continually. Which leads us to His "Irresistible Grace."

Meaning, and I know you have stated "forcing", and indeed it may well be a "forcing" by God. Which in itself begs the question Is God "sovereign?", or not? And, if in one's mind, God is sovereign? Then "why should His forcing", be such a problem to you? Or anyone else, for that matter.

Perhaps you don't understand irresistible, or forcing. Do you think God can put an individual in such a position, or line of thinking, whereby EVERY way "out", or every "argument", logical or not, one can make in refusing is methodically, and systematically, stripped away? Leaving one with No OTHER Option, SAVE Acceptance? The answer is: "Of course!" "God can do ANYTHING He wants!"

But, let's not get the cart too far in front of the horse here. I know you're asking, "Why would ANYONE refuse in the first place?" Right?

That is answered quite simply in this 6 worded phrase:
"Lean not on your own understanding!"
That's the "crux of the biscuit." In a "nutshell."

Because, God's methodology, in "regenerating, rejuvenating, also called healing", of one's heart, soul, mind, spirit, flesh, as well as strength?
Is GOING to (NOT SHALL) take one to places that one is NOT going to understand, in this "healing process."

Why? Because God knows you, better then you know you! (FACT)
Places where "sin abounds", that "LOVE", just doesn't cover! (FACT)
Isaiah 28

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (all the fruit of the Spirit...NOT just love! ALL!)

1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
You've got that right. I do not understand how any thinking Christian with knowledge of the scriptures can agree to follow Calvin and accept TULIP is of God.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
John the Baptist comes to mind. He had the Spirit before receiving anything

But he was an exception to the rule.

I was posting about NT salvation, not prior to the cross

in the OT, God did rest His Spirit upon those He chose...such as the prophets
 

Whispered

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I have to tell you....somebody declaring Judas as "saved" is a first for me. I have never enountered that docrine in any commentary either.
I said Judas was repentant and forgiven. He was chosen by Omniscient Emmanuel God to be His Disciple. Did Jesus not know how Judas would serve in the Father's grace filled plan?

I strongly suspect that you are a universalist. I hope u see differently in the fullness of time.
My dear sir or madam, as the gender specifies the salutation, I say this with the respect deserved in light of your posting history here; Anyone who calls creations of God, even those who are sinners, human trash, may hope until there is announced an E.T sequel trailer in my future, that I see things differently than they suppose is right and true.
 

cv5

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I said Judas was repentant and forgiven. He was chosen by Omniscient Emmanuel God to be His Disciple. Did Jesus not know how Judas would serve in the Father's grace filled plan?


My dear sir or madam, as the gender specifies the salutation, I say this with the respect deserved in light of your posting history here; Anyone who calls creations of God, even those who are sinners, human trash, may hope until there is announced an E.T sequel trailer in my future, that I see things differently than they suppose is right and true.
Sir.

So is everyone saved? Yes or no?

Incidentally, it is Jesus who is throwing sinners into the garbage dump aka Gehenna (any resident of Jerusalem would know exactly what Jesus was talking about).

You have a bone to pick with Him. Not me.
 

Whispered

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So is everyone saved? Yes or no?
The Book of John chapter 3.
Jesus death on the cross took the sins of the world upon Himself that He be the propitiation for the sins of the entire world for all time.
Who so ever, breaking it down so as to frame the image, holds faith in that is saved. They are justified by the atoning work of Jesus on the cross.

Incidentally, it is Jesus who is throwing sinners into the garbage dump aka Gehenna. You have a bone to pick with Him. Not me.
I am not a vulture therefore I do not pick bones. There is no evidence that the Valley of Hinnom was a garbage dump.
Remember, parables! Jesus used parables to bring His eternal message to an eternally needy world.
 

cv5

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The Book of John chapter 3.
Jesus death on the cross took the sins of the world upon Himself that He be the propitiation for the sins of the entire world for all time.
Who so ever, breaking it down so as to frame the image, holds faith in that is saved. They are justified by the atoning work of Jesus on the cross.


I am not a vulture therefore I do not pick bones. There is no evidence that the Valley of Hinnom was a garbage dump.
Remember, parables! Jesus used parables to bring His eternal message to an eternally needy world.
Ohhhh. So according to you, everyone is saved and there is no hell for sinners who suffer eternal punishment. Well....that goes beyond mere universalism to some kind of fantasy religion preaching a bogus Jesus and another gospel.


Jesus was not lying. He was not exaggerating. He was not jesting. He was WARNING sinners of imminent judgment. And the audience was FULLY AWARE of what he meant. In fact, there is no record of anyone asking for Jesus to "interpret" anything about Gehenna.
Matthew 5:22 – “But I say to you that everyone being angry with his brother will be liable to the judgment, and whoever shall say to his brother ‘Raca,’ will be liable to the Sanhedrin. But whoever shall say, ‘Fool!’ will be liable to the Gehenna of fire.”​

Matthew 5:29 – “And if your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and cast it from you. For it is better for you that one of your members should perish and not that your whole body should be cast into Gehenna.”​

Matthew 5:30 – “And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and cast it from you, for it is better for you that one of your members should perish and not that your whole body should depart into Gehenna.”​

Matthew 10:28 – “And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.”​

Matthew 18:9 – “And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and cast it from you; it is better for you to enter into life one-eyed, than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire.”​

Matthew 23:15 – “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you traverse the sea and the dry land to make one convert, and whenever it may happen, you make him twofold more a son of Gehenna than yourselves.”​

Matthew 23:33, to the Pharisees – “Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How shall you escape from the sentence of Gehenna?”​

Mark 9:43 – “And if your hand should cause you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter into life crippled, than having two hands to go away into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire”​

Mark 9:45 – “And if your foot should cause you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter into life lame, than having the two feet, to be cast into Gehenna.”​

Mark 9:47 – “And if your eye should cause you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna,”​

Luke 12:5 – “But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who has authority, after the killing, to cast into Gehenna. Yes, I say to you, fear Him.”​
 
Apr 12, 2019
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Sir.

So is everyone saved? Yes or no?

Incidentally, it is Jesus who is throwing sinners into the garbage dump aka Gehenna (any resident of Jerusalem would know exactly what Jesus was talking about).

You have a bone to pick with Him. Not me.
Well that doesn't mean they are trash, just means that they are like trash in there sin and like trash they are worthy of holy burning.

Anyway, im sure you would agree with this right?

because they are not trash but images of God, with value, and now worthy of this righteous destruction through there sin.
 

cv5

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Well that doesn't mean they are trash, just means that they are like trash in there sin and like trash they are worthy of holy burning.

Anyway, im sure you would agree with this right?
"human beings have eternal value as images of God"

God is not throwing away His adopted sons and daughters. They are a precious love gift to the Son.
Those in Christ are a sweet smelling savor to God.

Unforgiven sinners are a stench in His nostrils, who will suffer eternal wrath.

I will leave the rest to your imagination.
 

Whispered

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Ohhhh. So according to you, everyone is saved and there is no hell for sinners who suffer eternal punishment. Well....that goes beyond mere universalism to some kind of fantasy religion preaching a bogus Jesus and another gospel.
Sure does. If you copyright how you read things here you may make a tidy fortune in time.
Amazon has a self-publishing arm. Maybe try there.
 

cv5

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Sure does. If you copyright how you read things here you may make a tidy fortune in time.
Amazon has a self-publishing arm. Maybe try there.
Aaaahhmmm….is that an admission?