3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

[TooFastTurtle]

Ohhhh. So according to you, everyone is saved and there is no hell for sinners who suffer eternal punishment. Well....that goes beyond mere universalism to some kind of fantasy religion preaching a bogus Jesus and another gospel.

That is not what she said.. I cannot tell what is wrong but I see Calvinists use this argument constantly. Atonement does not save anyone. It just is there. It needs to be applied and it is applied to you when you have faith.

Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world does not equal universalism. It equals atonement made, now all we need is faith.

 

[Whispered]

Well that doesn't mean they are trash, just means that they are like trash in there sin and like trash they are worthy of holy burning.

Anyway, im sure you would agree with this right?

because they are not trash but images of God, with value, and now worthy of this righteous destruction through there sin.

No, they judged certain people human trash.

 

[Whispered]

As pertains to Judas Iscariot.
The Book of Matthew chapter 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.

That price of blood and it being 30 pieces of silver in the cast of the temple elders paying Judas to betray his Lord, reflects back in meaning to the Book of Exodus and chapter 21. If an Ox killed a slave, the owner of that Ox would not only have to pay 30 pieces of silver unto the slaves master, but the Ox itself would have to be stoned to death.

The temple elders of course knew of that passage. Jesus was therefore bought for a slave price by them.
But hearken unto another time when a man of God was sold for silver; 20 pieces of silver. The price then for a slave boy between the ages of 5 and 20 years of age. See, The Book of Leviticus chapter 27.
Joseph who was sold by his brothers into slavery. See, The Book of Genesis chapter 37.

Joseph came out of a prison and stood at the right hand of Pharaoh. Jesus was resurrected from death and stands at the right hand of God.
The 30 pieces of silver that Judas cast back at the temple elders, the blood money, could not be returned to the temple treasury for that reason; it had purchased a life. Therefore what would happen to that money?

Always look for a silver lining, be optimistic because pessimism drains energy thinking you deserve less than the best.

The 30 pieces of silver were used to create, "The Field of Blood", also known as, "Potters Field", where foreigners could be buried. See the Book of Matthew 27


Joseph's journey was a foreshadowing of what was to come as Christ's journey. Link
Joseph for his horrible trials in the end realized it was all so that he could preserve life. The Book of Genesis chapter 45:5 And now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life.

And recall when I asked, if not for Judas how would Jesus accomplish the mission for which He was born?

While Judas' betrayal is devastating to us, how do you betray God for money, it served to make Jesus the risen Savior who gives eternal life to all who believe.
Josephs betrayal by his brothers served life, as Joseph said, also.

 

[cv5]

As pertains to Judas Iscariot.
The Book of Matthew chapter 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.

That price of blood and it being 30 pieces of silver in the cast of the temple elders paying Judas to betray his Lord, reflects back in meaning to the Book of Exodus and chapter 21. If an Ox killed a slave, the owner of that Ox would not only have to pay 30 pieces of silver unto the slaves master, but the Ox itself would have to be stoned to death.

The temple elders of course knew of that passage. Jesus was therefore bought for a slave price by them.
But hearken unto another time when a man of God was sold for silver; 20 pieces of silver. The price then for a slave boy between the ages of 5 and 20 years of age. See, The Book of Leviticus chapter 27.
Joseph who was sold by his brothers into slavery. See, The Book of Genesis chapter 37.

Joseph came out of a prison and stood at the right hand of Pharaoh. Jesus was resurrected from death and stands at the right hand of God.
The 30 pieces of silver that Judas cast back at the temple elders, the blood money, could not be returned to the temple treasury for that reason; it had purchased a life. Therefore what would happen to that money?

Always look for a silver lining, be optimistic because pessimism drains energy thinking you deserve less than the best.

The 30 pieces of silver were used to create, "The Field of Blood", also known as, "Potters Field", where foreigners could be buried. See the Book of Matthew 27


Joseph's journey was a foreshadowing of what was to come as Christ's journey. Link
Joseph for his horrible trials in the end realized it was all so that he could preserve life. The Book of Genesis chapter 45:5 And now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life.

And recall when I asked, if not for Judas how would Jesus accomplish the mission for which He was born?

While Judas' betrayal is devastating to us, how do you betray God for money, it served to make Jesus the risen Savior who gives eternal life to all who believe.
Josephs betrayal by his brothers served life, as Joseph said, also.

Judas betraying Christ and serving the will of Satan was NOT in any way good for HIM.
He is damned and waiting for his internment in possibly the hottest hell imaginable.

Why? Because he was one of the closest persons to Christ the Lord in all of the history of mankind. Consequently the judgment meted out will be according the light he rejected.

For your information...here are some other groups who were close to the King, enjoyed his Presence, teachings and miracles.....and did NOT receive Him as Lord and Savior.

FYI....judgment in this context always means damnation eternally.

Luke 10:13

“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. “But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the judgment than for you. “And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!

Matt 23

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ “So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. “Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

That, madame.....is the real Jesus. Glorious in His Salvation, Glorious in His Righteous Judgments.
And.....all those incarcerated in HELL, including the demons, will bend the knee and worship Him.

 

[Whispered]

You've got that right. I do not understand how any thinking Christian with knowledge of the scriptures can agree to follow Calvin and accept TULIP is of God.

Naybor, I did not mean to make you sad with my comments. It was inconsiderate to speak that way as a snappy retort without thinking I could be responding as such to a Calvinist. I ask your forgiveness for any hurt my words may have caused you.

I have been quite caustic in other threads concerning Calvinism and TULIP. I shall bridle my tongue/fingers keying, in future using the reminder of our discussion here brother.
I cherish people of God and it breaks my heart when I feel they are being led down a primrose path and away from that journey unto the narrow gate.

Jesus Passion on the cross was enough. I shall endeavor to curb mine when it comes to debating the merits of any Denominational teaching here out.

Again, I apologize deeply brother, and ask you to hold my intentions in prayer. That God remind me with a swift kick if I think to post snappy again.

God's blessings surround you and yours. Amen.

I really have to recycle my Blackweb keyboard because it omits letters in my post even when I feel the keys depressing as they should. God's way of telling me to proof read before hitting, Reply. Patience sister, patience.
Forgive also , anyone at all reading this, typo's in the form of omitd text.
See what I did there?

_____________

 

[Flint321]

Naybor, I did not mean to make you sad with my comments. It was inconsiderate to speak that way as a snappy retort without thinking I could be responding as such to a Calvinist. I ask your forgiveness for any hurt my words may have caused you.

I have been quite caustic in other threads concerning Calvinism and TULIP. I shall bridle my tongue/fingers keying, in future using the reminder of our discussion here brother.
I cherish people of God and it breaks my heart when I feel they are being led down a primrose path and away from that journey unto the narrow gate.

Jesus Passion on the cross was enough. I shall endeavor to curb mine when it comes to debating the merits of any Denominational teaching here out.

Again, I apologize deeply brother, and ask you to hold my intentions in prayer. That God remind me with a swift kick if I think to post snappy again.

God's blessings surround you and yours. Amen.

I really have to recycle my Blackweb keyboard because it omits letters in my post even when I feel the keys depressing as they should. God's way of telling me to proof read before hitting, Reply. Patience sister, patience.
Forgive also , anyone at all reading this, typo's in the form of omitd text.
See what I did there?

_____________

I don't think anyone is sad, Calvinist can get pretty heated on this these issues as Arminians can and this is because we both believe these things to be really important as they pertain to the glory of God and His gospel. It's important that we continue to seek to find the truth.

Your not doing anything wrong, its fine to declare things to be evil, but be ready to defend what you believe because only one system can be right and one system likewise must be wrong, either Calvinism is blasphemy as you have declared or its according to God's word.

Your free to think Calvinism theology is blasphemy, im not offended, i just think its a sad thing, because i think its the other way around......

 

[ForestGreenCook]

not at all

does anyone have the Holy Spirit before they have accepted Christ?

let's see that scripture that specifically tells us that God fills a person with His Spirit prior to salvation

get serious

Eph 2:5 - Even when we were dead (spiritually) in sins, hath he quickened (with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) us together with Christ, (by grace are ye saved). When we are spiritually dead we are incapable of accepting Christ (1 Cor 2:15).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I would suggest it is foolishness to misrepresent the words of Jesus in His Father's own book.


Samaritans and Jews were at odds in Jesus' day. The Samaritan woman at the well was not born again when she met Jesus at the well.

The Book of John chapter 4:7A woman from Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give me a drink.” 8 (For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.) 9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) 10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” 11 The woman said to him, “Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob? He gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock.” 13 Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again.[b] The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” 15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water, so that I will not be thirsty or have to come here to draw water.”

The natural person who has not been born again as described in 1 Cor 2:14 would not have believed in the spiritual things that Jesus was explaining to the woman at the well. You do not seem to even try to harmonize the scriptures. They should all fit together like a puzzle. If you leave some pieces (scriptures) out you will never see the whole picture.

 

[Whispered]

Eph 2:5 - Even when we were dead (spiritually) in sins, hath he quickened (with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) us together with Christ, (by grace are ye saved). When we are spiritually dead we are incapable of accepting Christ (1 Cor 2:15).

I think if you read all of The Book of Ephesians chapter 2, the first verse also informs us that those to whom Paul addressed this epistle were spoken to by him as those formerly dead in their sins. That's why their being quickened with the Holy Spirit makes sense. They were believers.

Ephesians
Theme
Paul summarizes his gospel of salvation by grace through faith alone and describes the nature and role of the church in God's eternal plan.
Overview
This book answers the question men and women have asked throughout all time: Why am I here? The answer has to do with eternity, making peace with God and understanding the believer’s new identity in Christ. The NIV Quest Study Bible says Paul wrote this letter to believers in Ephesus (a city in modern-day Turkey) to encourage them to think of themselves in a whole new way. He wanted them to think of themselves not as people who had once been involved in idol worship, illicit sex, and foolish philosophies, but as people in Christ—people with a radically new identity. The book offers practical ways to live in unity with God and others.
[end]

As pertains to the verse you cited from The Book of 1st Corinthians chapter 2, verse 15 says this: But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

 

[Whispered]

The natural person who has not been born again as described in 1 Cor 2:14 would not have believed in the spiritual things that Jesus was explaining to the woman at the well. You do not seem to even try to harmonize the scriptures. They should all fit together like a puzzle. If you leave some pieces (scriptures) out you will never see the whole picture.

I know you're fond of the word Harmonize, however, I would say you are wrong concerning the woman at the well.
Also, your argument concerning born again and not being able to understand spiritual things prior to that, does not make sense.
Unless you argue that God forces people into His grace, forces them to have faith, meaning His Godly force does this, so that they are then saved from His punishment for dying as sinners.

If people are not able to discern spiritual things until they're reborn in Christ, then the Great Commission was and remains ineffectual.
If people to whom the Apostles spoke in delivering the Good News could not understand it, why would Jesus send His twelve on that mission?
And if those people to whom they did speak were made to be Saved by God before their arrival, then the Apostles duties were redundant. They did not need to spread the Gospel when God got to a people first and forced them into grace and faith.

To understand 1st Corinthians 2:14 we have to recollect Paul's letter in The Book of 2nd Thessalonians 2.:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The natural man can't discern spiritual things . But once the Gospel calls them, they are able to obtain the glory of Christ. That's the whole premise of the Great Commission.

What you argue is that only people who are already saved can understand the Good News. How were they saved if not for first hearing the Gospel that called those sinners unto repentance?

Jesus never said His Gospel can only be understood by Saved people.

Nor would it make sense for anyone to minister to the lost when the Gospel, that speaks of saving grace, when no one can understand it unless they are already what the Gospel calls them to be; redeemed in Christ.

Indwelt people don't need to hear the Gospel preached. If they're already redeemed prior to its being taught.
Jesus said, he did not come to speak to the righteous but to the lost. The Book of Luke chapter 5:32"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

Divine wisdom is embodied in the Gospel revelation that teaches the mission and message of Jesus Christ.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I think if you read all of The Book of Ephesians chapter 2, the first verse also informs us that those to whom Paul addressed this epistle were spoken to by him as those formerly dead in their sins. That's why their being quickened with the Holy Spirit makes sense. They were believers.

Ephesians
Theme
Paul summarizes his gospel of salvation by grace through faith alone and describes the nature and role of the church in God's eternal plan.
Overview
This book answers the question men and women have asked throughout all time: Why am I here? The answer has to do with eternity, making peace with God and understanding the believer’s new identity in Christ. The NIV Quest Study Bible says Paul wrote this letter to believers in Ephesus (a city in modern-day Turkey) to encourage them to think of themselves in a whole new way. He wanted them to think of themselves not as people who had once been involved in idol worship, illicit sex, and foolish philosophies, but as people in Christ—people with a radically new identity. The book offers practical ways to live in unity with God and others.
[end]

As pertains to the verse you cited from The Book of 1st Corinthians chapter 2, verse 15 says this: But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Sorry, I made an error in listing my reference verse. It should have been 1 Cor 2:14, but I think that you already knew that. In Eph 2 when Paul says that they were "dead in sins" means that they were spiritually dead in sins, because they had not yet been quickened (brought to a spiritual birth with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit). They were not believers until after they were given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in regeneration. They were then new born babes in Christ with access to spiritual faith. They were fed on the milk of the word and gradually began to increase their faith as they were fed the words of the gospel. Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I know you're fond of the word Harmonize, however, I would say you are wrong concerning the woman at the well.
Also, your argument concerning born again and not being able to understand spiritual things prior to that, does not make sense.
Unless you argue that God forces people into His grace, forces them to have faith, meaning His Godly force does this, so that they are then saved from His punishment for dying as sinners.

If people are not able to discern spiritual things until they're reborn in Christ, then the Great Commission was and remains ineffectual.
If people to whom the Apostles spoke in delivering the Good News could not understand it, why would Jesus send His twelve on that mission?
And if those people to whom they did speak were made to be Saved by God before their arrival, then the Apostles duties were redundant. They did not need to spread the Gospel when God got to a people first and forced them into grace and faith.

To understand 1st Corinthians 2:14 we have to recollect Paul's letter in The Book of 2nd Thessalonians 2.:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The natural man can't discern spiritual things . But once the Gospel calls them, they are able to obtain the glory of Christ. That's the whole premise of the Great Commission.

What you argue is that only people who are already saved can understand the Good News. How were they saved if not for first hearing the Gospel that called those sinners unto repentance?

Jesus never said His Gospel can only be understood by Saved people.

Nor would it make sense for anyone to minister to the lost when the Gospel, that speaks of saving grace, when no one can understand it unless they are already what the Gospel calls them to be; redeemed in Christ.

Indwelt people don't need to hear the Gospel preached. If they're already redeemed prior to its being taught.
Jesus said, he did not come to speak to the righteous but to the lost. The Book of Luke chapter 5:32"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

Divine wisdom is embodied in the Gospel revelation that teaches the mission and message of Jesus Christ.

We can not understand the scriptures by our own entelect. the only way that we can understand the scriptures is by denying ourselves (our entelect) and then will the indwelling Holy Spirit reveal some truths to us. Lean not unto our own understanding.

 

[Whispered]

We can not understand the scriptures by our own entelect. the only way that we can understand the scriptures is by denying ourselves (our entelect) and then will the indwelling Holy Spirit reveal some truths to us. Lean not unto our own understanding.

I don't believe Holy Spirit God indwells the unbeliever first so that they can understand the word. I believe The Word, Holy Spirit God, indwells the scriptures so that the hurting soul desperate for relief from worldly woe is able to be reached in their time of trouble. Because they're open to the spirit in the word to lead them home.
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.

 

[Whispered]

Sorry, I made an error in listing my reference verse. It should have been 1 Cor 2:14, but I think that you already knew that. In Eph 2 when Paul says that they were "dead in sins" means that they were spiritually dead in sins, because they had not yet been quickened (brought to a spiritual birth with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit). They were not believers until after they were given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in regeneration. They were then new born babes in Christ with access to spiritual faith. They were fed on the milk of the word and gradually began to increase their faith as they were fed the words of the gospel. Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little.

Isaiah
Theme
Isaiah predicts imminent judgment—but eventual restoration—for the people of Judah and Jerusalem.
Overview
Do you know Christians who live double lives? Who only seem to be playing with God? The prophet Isaiah knew people who lived double lives—his fellow Israelites—and he shared God’s hatred for their duplicitous compromise. In the book of Isaiah, he challenges them to shape up and love God with all their hearts and minds. The NIV Quest Study Bible Isaiah wants his readers to see their hypocrisy and change their ways. Isaiah, who the NIV Student Bible calls the Shakespeare of Hebrew literature, was a poet who understood the two-sided nature of God’s character: mercy and judgment, grace and discipline, justice and forgiveness, exile and salvation. The tension of these great paradoxes fills the pages of Isaiah’s writings, demanding a resolution each reader must make: decide to commit to faith or to unbelief.



That chapter in Isaiah is Isaiah talking to the two faced , if you will, people of Judah and Jerusalem. Telling them what is essentially, they must choose to either be a believer in the word, or an unbeliever.Because their duplicitous nature thus far is unacceptable to God.
This is why we say, cherry picking verses to sustain a point isn't good because very often that singular verse in context of its whole chapter is saying something entirely different.

The Book of Isaiah chapter 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!


2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.


3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:


4 And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.


5 In that day shall the Lord of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,


6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.


7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.


8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.


9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.


10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:


11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.


12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.


13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.


15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:


16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.


18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.


19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.


20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.


21 For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.


22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.


23 Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.


24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?


25 When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?


26 For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.


27 For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.


28 Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.


29 This also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

 

[cv5]

Isaiah
Theme
Isaiah predicts imminent judgment—but eventual restoration—for the people of Judah and Jerusalem.
Overview
Do you know Christians who live double lives? Who only seem to be playing with God? The prophet Isaiah knew people who lived double lives—his fellow Israelites—and he shared God’s hatred for their duplicitous compromise. In the book of Isaiah, he challenges them to shape up and love God with all their hearts and minds. The NIV Quest Study Bible Isaiah wants his readers to see their hypocrisy and change their ways. Isaiah, who the NIV Student Bible calls the Shakespeare of Hebrew literature, was a poet who understood the two-sided nature of God’s character: mercy and judgment, grace and discipline, justice and forgiveness, exile and salvation. The tension of these great paradoxes fills the pages of Isaiah’s writings, demanding a resolution each reader must make: decide to commit to faith or to unbelief.



That chapter in Isaiah is Isaiah talking to the two faced , if you will, people of Judah and Jerusalem. Telling them what is essentially, they must choose to either be a believer in the word, or an unbeliever.Because their duplicitous nature thus far is unacceptable to God.
This is why we say, cherry picking verses to sustain a point isn't good because very often that singular verse in context of its whole chapter is saying something entirely different.

The Book of Isaiah chapter 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!


2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.


3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:


4 And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.


5 In that day shall the Lord of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,


6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.


7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.


8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.


9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.


10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:


11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.


12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.


13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.


15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:


16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.


18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.


19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.


20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.


21 For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.


22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.


23 Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.


24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?


25 When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?


26 For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.


27 For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.


28 Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.


29 This also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

What is the ration of those who are saved THROUGH the judgments to those who perish because of it?
The Scripture is quite clear when indicating the ratios.

 

[cv5]

This should help sooth everyone's frayed nerves. Magnificent.

 

[Whispered]

What is the ration of those who are saved THROUGH the judgments to those who perish because of it?
The Scripture is quite clear when indicating the ratios.

And yet you don't post those. I would wonder why that is.

 

[Whispered]

This should help sooth everyone's frayed nerves. Magnificent.

As well as this:

Concerto's in order:
Praise The Lord - Mozart
Solemn Vespers for a Confessor - Mozart

 

[inukubo]

Why would Calvinists need to resort to "tactics" against non-Calvinists? We're not at war -- At least not with each other. There are no brownie points for the number of people I get to agree with me on my interpretation of what is going on inside God's mind. Regardless of your view, our only concern should be to preach Christ Crucified, Raised to Life, and Coming Again.

 

[cv5]

Why would Calvinists need to resort to "tactics" against non-Calvinists? We're not at war -- At least not with each other. There are no brownie points for the number of people I get to agree with me on my interpretation of what is going on inside God's mind. Regardless of your view, our only concern should be to preach Christ Crucified, Raised to Life, and Coming Again.

Admittedly, Church history has been tumultuous and bloody. Tragically.
Back in Calvin's day, spurious accusations, kangaroo courts, hasty condemnations and burning was all too common.