3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
Dispensationalists interpret the Scripture in an Israel-centric manner rather than Christ-centered manner.

I refer the wise reader to Luke 24.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
Scofield taught that the Church was a mere afterthought. It only occurred because Israel rejected their Messiah. Otherwise Gentlies would have been forever damned.

They really do not have a Christ-centered hermeneutic.

Their world centers around Israel.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
3,697
113
Scofield taught that the Church was a mere afterthought. It only occurred because Israel rejected their Messiah. Otherwise Gentlies would have been forever damned.

They really do not have a Christ-centered hermeneutic.

Their world centers around Israel.
Nope, you got that wrong. If Israel would have received Christ as their Messiah, then the Lord would have used the nation of Israel to be the light to the Gentile world. The city on the hill should have been Jerusalem. They rejected Jesus, so the Lord would use a Jewish man to reach the Gentiles, the Apostle Paul.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
Nope, you got that wrong. If Israel would have received Christ as their Messiah, then the Lord would have used the nation of Israel to be the light to the Gentile world. The city on the hill should have been Jerusalem. They rejected Jesus, so the Lord would use a Jewish man to reach the Gentiles, the Apostle Paul.
No, God used a nation that would bear the fruit. Paul was only one member of that spiritual nation.

Matthew 21:33-46
33 “Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. 35 And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. 37 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord's doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. 46 And although they were seeking to arrest him, they feared the crowds, because they held him to be a prophet.
(ESV)

Who is that nation? The Church:

1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
(ESV)

They are now spiritual Israel as Eph 2 states.

Dispensationalism is simply a false doctrine.

Since they are the majority in the USA among conservative evangelicals, they are virtually unchallenged but their teaching is clearly false. However, their true center of power is amongst charismatics/Pentecostals and they are not very doctrinally discerning so they are able to retain their majority status.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
3,697
113
No, God used a nation that would bear the fruit. Paul was only one member of that spiritual nation.

Matthew 21:33-46
33 “Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. 35 And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. 37 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord's doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. 46 And although they were seeking to arrest him, they feared the crowds, because they held him to be a prophet.
(ESV)

Who is that nation? The Church:

1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
(ESV)

They are now spiritual Israel as Eph 2 states.

Dispensationalism is simply a false doctrine.

Since they are the majority in the USA among conservative evangelicals, they are virtually unchallenged but their teaching is clearly false. However, their true center of power is amongst charismatics/Pentecostals and they are not very doctrinally discerning so they are able to retain their majority status.
Which tribe are you from?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
The same elect people who are enemies of the gospel? Yes. They are beloved because God chose them to bring forth the promised seed.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
This is talking about bringing the elect Gentiles into the fellowship with the church. Nowhere does it say that they were enemies to the "gospel". The Gentiles were enemies to Israel, not to the gospel. And, also, you will not understand the truths of the scriptures until you learn to separate the nation of Israel from Jacob/Israel. God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel, Gen 33:28. Jacob/Israel is representative of the elect, the church.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
I just have to believe the grace of God that saves. in Christ alone, no boasting my friend. Then your position must be wrong. Also am wasting my breath that you will not change even the scripture of truth says so.:)
That's because Calvinism is not the Gospel. It is Calvinism.
An elitist 'members only' club that believes God predestined to save them before he created the world to be in such a state as its people would need saving from....him.
The tragedy of the Calvinist Cult and that which in other denominations ascribes fully to the TULIP formula is, those faithful to it die in their delusion. Worshiping a God of Calvin's creation, fearing TULIP and yet arrogantly assured they are the chosen ones that are saved both from and by TULIP.
Truly, for every Calvinist that passes on, and all members of any denomination that holds to the TULIP formula, there is need for the prayer, may God have mercy. Because they shall surely need it when they stand at the judgment. And in line behind those who the Bible says will answer to a higher standard of judgment for thinking themselves called to preach; that would be John Calvin, Charles Spurgeon, R.C.Sproul, and many others.

May God have mercy.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
This is talking about bringing the elect Gentiles into the fellowship with the church. Nowhere does it say that they were enemies to the "gospel". The Gentiles were enemies to Israel, not to the gospel. And, also, you will not understand the truths of the scriptures until you learn to separate the nation of Israel from Jacob/Israel. God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel, Gen 33:28. Jacob/Israel is representative of the elect, the church.
Please post the scripture that tells us Gentiles, who were the other sheep Jesus had to call into one flock, are the enemies to Israel.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
3,697
113
This is talking about bringing the elect Gentiles into the fellowship with the church. Nowhere does it say that they were enemies to the "gospel". The Gentiles were enemies to Israel, not to the gospel. And, also, you will not understand the truths of the scriptures until you learn to separate the nation of Israel from Jacob/Israel. God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel, Gen 33:28. Jacob/Israel is representative of the elect, the church.
No, you won’t understand Scripture until you rightly divide Israel fro the Church.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,111
962
113
You must have a mental block in your mind that will not let you understand that a spiritually dead man cannot accept things of the Spirit, as Eph 2:5 plainly states.
Sorry man, seems you are claiming what you are not. The scripture says, we are "DEAD IN SINS" but it doesn't say he can't understand about the holy things of the Spirit. That's strike 2 in adding Eph. 2:5 where it does not say of.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,111
962
113
Show me a scripture that says by hearing the word preached is the cause of us to be born again. Scripture proves scripture.
Perhaps you've been in amnesia for a quite sometime. Please consider the passage of the scripture below. True scripture proves scripture, there's no denying with that my friend.

1 Peter 1:23 Context

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
Nope, you got that wrong. If Israel would have received Christ as their Messiah, then the Lord would have used the nation of Israel to be the light to the Gentile world. The city on the hill should have been Jerusalem. They rejected Jesus, so the Lord would use a Jewish man to reach the Gentiles, the Apostle Paul.
This has a grain of truth..the apostles, who were all Jewish, fulfilled prophecies concerning Israel being a light to the nations.

However, the true Israel, the Church, is fulfilling this prophecy too. They have been united to Jesus Christ, who is a descendant of Abraham, therefore they are spiritual Israel. They are viewed the same as being Israelites.

I don't think dispensationalists are capable of following this narrative though.

But, it is plainly behind Ephesians 2. It is also behind Romans 4, where it says that Abraham and all his spiritual descendants inherit the WHOLE WORLD, not just the tiny nation of Israel.

I guess this is easy for me, because I learned about union with Christ first, instead of being indoctrinated with dispensationalism.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
3,697
113
I'm just a boring Euro white guy...tribalism isn't my thing anyways..I believe in one people of God united in Christ, both Jew and Gentlie.
Yep, we’re the body of Christ, not Israel, spiritual Israel, anything Israel.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
Perhaps you've been in amnesia for a quite sometime. Please consider the passage of the scripture below. True scripture proves scripture, there's no denying with that my friend.

1 Peter 1:23 Context

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Are you claiming that believers are not regenerated, but simply hear the Word and respond?

I don't think any Scripturally literate person would claim that.

It is true that the preaching of the Gospel is involved in the new birth, but regeneration must occur first logically. The person needs a heart of flesh to respond. The teaching of free-willers is that God coaxes the person into belief, rather than changing their hearts so they respond in faith and repentance. As I have said over and over again, that gives fallen man too much credit.

But what should I expect from free-willers?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
3,697
113
This has a grain of truth..the apostles, who were all Jewish, fulfilled prophecies concerning Israel being a light to the nations.

However, the true Israel, the Church, is fulfilling this prophecy too. They have been united to Jesus Christ, who is a descendant of Abraham, therefore they are spiritual Israel. They are viewed the same as being Israelites.

I don't think dispensationalists are capable of following this narrative though.

But, it is plainly behind Ephesians 2. It is also behind Romans 4, where it says that Abraham and all his spiritual descendants inherit the WHOLE WORLD, not just the tiny nation of Israel.

I guess this is easy for me, because I learned about union with Christ first, instead of being indoctrinated with dispensationalism.
Nothing in Ephesians 2 or Romans 4 calls the body of Christ the true Israel.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
Nothing in Ephesians 2 or Romans 4 calls the body of Christ the true Israel.
It says that there is only one man in Christ, and that those who believe have been brought near and are no longer separated from the commonwealth of Israel.

There is only one household of God, composed of both Jew and Gentile.

It doesn't take a genius to figure this out.

Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
(ESV)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
3,697
113
It says that there is only one man in Christ, and that those who believe have been brought near and are no longer separated from the commonwealth of Israel.

There is only one household of God, composed of both Jew and Gentile.

It doesn't take a genius to figure this out.

Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
(ESV)
Fellow citizens of the what? Household of God. We are now one in Christ, no Jew or Gentile, no household of Israel, Israel, or spiritual Israel. It’s just not there. Words are important. If a Jew gets saved, he’s no longer a Jew but a member of the household of God. He’s in Christ.