Body and Blood

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R

rodogg

Guest
#1
Uh-oh, controversyyyyy :p

Anywho, I know most people on here aren't Catholic, so I may post the odd thread on Catholic beliefs or questions regarding Catholicism. Not doing it to start an all out WAR, just for debate purposes :p

So firstly: We believe that during the Mass the priest transforms the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus.

Jesus said: "He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him." John 6:56

And there are various other Bible verses similar to this. I know I will be told that this is not to be taken literally, but that seems like choosing what you want to be literal or not.

Thoughts.
 

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#2
You going to search for His body just so
you can have a bite at His flesh?

It's not taken as His literal flesh
and blood because Jesus and the apostles
drank red drink and ate bread that
signifies the washing away of our sins
and His body that signifies the living
bread from heaven that gives eternal life.

That is how we know it's not taken as literal
flesh and blood.
 
R

rodogg

Guest
#3
Expected response. My problem there is that he quite literally said "eat my flesh and drink my blood". I could take ANYTHING therefore, that Jesus said, and say "Oh no well what he ACTUALLY meant was this...."

He said what he said. So we do it.
 

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#4
Well in that case you missed out because
His flesh (glorified) is in heaven.

sorry :D
 
R

rodogg

Guest
#5
I don't know what I've missed out on and I don't know what his flesh being glorified in Heaven has to do with it and I don't know what your sorry for. :)
 
N

NickInCali

Guest
#6
Uh-oh, controversyyyyy :p

Anywho, I know most people on here aren't Catholic, so I may post the odd thread on Catholic beliefs or questions regarding Catholicism. Not doing it to start an all out WAR, just for debate purposes :p

So firstly: We believe that during the Mass the priest transforms the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus.

Jesus said: "He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him." John 6:56

And there are various other Bible verses similar to this. I know I will be told that this is not to be taken literally, but that seems like choosing what you want to be literal or not.

Thoughts.
Greetings from a fellow Catholic! :) I agree with you wholeheartedly of course. It's ironic how Protestants who pride themselves so often on taking the Bible so literally balk at the Real Presence discussed by Jesus in passages like John 6.
I also recently looked into the common Protestant practice of drinking grape juice rather than wine. It has nothing to do with the Bible and everything to with the temperance movement of the 19th century that saw all alcohol consumption as wrong (eventually leading to prohibition). I was a Protestant most of my life and couldn't believe I had never learned that all the times I took communion in evangelical/Baptist churches.
 
N

NickInCali

Guest
#7
Well in that case you missed out because
His flesh (glorified) is in heaven.

sorry :D
One of the primary themes of the Mass is to bring heavenly realities to earth. So no, we haven't missed a thing. :)
 

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#8
1 Corinthians 11:24-25 (KJV)

<BREAD>

And when he had given thanks, he brake it,
and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is
broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

<RED DRINK>

After the same manner also he took the cup,
when he had supped, saying, this cup is the
new testament in my blood: this do ye, as of
as ye drink it, in remembrance of me
 
R

rodogg

Guest
#9
Mhmm? Agreed, he said those things.
 

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#12
i can't find scripture for wine
but this is what i have found:
"cup" or "fruit of the vine."

but normally
Red wine--symbolizes blood of Christ
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#13
Uh-oh, controversyyyyy :p

Anywho, I know most people on here aren't Catholic, so I may post the odd thread on Catholic beliefs or questions regarding Catholicism. Not doing it to start an all out WAR, just for debate purposes :p

So firstly: We believe that during the Mass the priest transforms the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus.

Jesus said: "He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him." John 6:56

And there are various other Bible verses similar to this. I know I will be told that this is not to be taken literally, but that seems like choosing what you want to be literal or not.

Thoughts.
the problem is you are taking on part of a verse which is part of a whole conversation jesus was having with people who he fed the day before, and came just looking for a handout and not the message Christ had. when taken in context. one oculd NOT come up with the literal translation of the verse you are using. now one must ask why?

1. the bread. what was Jesus comparing the bread of life he was offering to?


John 6: 26 - 27 Jesus answered them and said, &#8220;Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.&#8221;

jesus was making it clear. You worked to come all this way to get a free handout (bread) but would it not better to come to give what I was sent to give? Food (bread) which will endure to eternal life (endures forever)

if one thinks. Bread dies, that is why we have to keep eating. Jesus said the bread he came to give will never die. thus we will never hunger.


vs 35 - 40 And Jesus said to them, &#8220;I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

Notice a very important thing Jesus said. What did he say would give them the bread? "COME TO ME and BELIEVE IN ME. which fits perfectly with the verse before. whan asked what work one had to do to get this bread.

vs 28 - 29 : Then they said to Him, &#8220;What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?&#8221;
Jesus answered and said to them, &#8220;This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.&#8221;

so we see in two separate parts of the passage exactly what they were told (and us) we are to do if we want this "bread of life"

Then Jesus told them, they do not believe. that is why they will not get this bread. But those who do recieve this bread, he made a promise.


36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.&#8221;

what a promise from God! Whoever receives this bread of life will have eternal life. and promised by Christ himself to be raised BY HIM on the last day. Add this to the previous passage that they will NEVER HUNGER, and we start to see a picture.

Jesus makes other promises to those who "eat this bread":

44 - 51 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, &#8220;Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, &#8216;And they shall all be taught by God.&#8217;Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.&#8221;

promises so far:

1. Never hunger or thirst
2. Live forever
3. Never Die
4. Be raised on the last day



And what did Jesus say one must do to recieve this bread?

1. Come to him,
2. Call out to him
3. Believe in him.
4. Listen to god, Learn from god. And believe in the message God came to give,

What is that meassage?

That christ will come and give his flesh for the life of the world (He will die on the cross)


Jesus goes on further to explain exactly what this means (to believe)

vs 61 -63 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, &#8220;Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

What is life? What is the bread? The thing we BELIEVE IN. And what is it that we believe? THE WORDS OF CHRIST. and who is it that speaks through Christ? THE SPIRIT. THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST!

He who believes has eternal life. Who who does not believe is condemned and shall never see life. Those sare the words of Christ.

No mention of a "mass" No mention of a Eucharist" no mention of a wafer of bread which turns to flesh, or cup which turns to blood. BELIEVE IN ME AND YOU WILL NEVER HUNGER, NEVER THIRST, LIVE FOREVER, NEVER DIE, BE RAISED ON THE LAST DAY"

The Eucharist promises non of this. why?

1. People eat this flesh, and still hunger. thus they need to keep eating it. Like the children of Israel ate manna
2. They still thirst, same as above
3. It does not promise anyone who eats it will have eternal life.
4. People can eat it and still die
5. Eating the flesh does not guarantee you will be raised by Christ, vs be delivered to him for Judgment.


Again, If one studies the WHOLE PASSAGE, instead of taking on part of one verse. they would see what the true BREAD OF LIFE IS'
 
R

Ronin

Guest
#14
It is not symbolic. Christians of all denominations Bible is the literal word of God. First there was the word as it says in John. The words of Christ carry significance and meaning. Ok lets pose this question....were the words of Christ in action or symbolic. In the Parables yes they were in fact symbolic in order to teach. However when his words meant action they were fact. He told the sick arise and walk, that was not symbolic. He transformed water into wine, that was not symbolic. He said Lasurus Arise and walk after he was in the tomb for 3 days. Was that Symbolic? When he said Satan Leave him, was that symbolic and not to be taken literally? So to Catholics when he said This is my Body take it and eat from it. It is not symbolism. I am not a President but in this case I know what the meaning of IS is. He took the cup and said this IS my blood. Transmigration of Spirit what he said will be him. The word becomes fact. It is his body and his blood to the spirit to feed the soul.The last supper had meaning in fact and had a symbolic meaning to it I do agree that he was to be the sacrificial lamb. But His words say airse sick. When he said to Peter come walk on the water. When he said I am the Truth and the Life there was truth. IF this has no meaning as fact then what are we doing here what are we believing. Wake up. The anit Christ will know everything about scripture and the best way for him to win is to have us fighting amoungst ourselves. Divide and Conquer. My eyes are on Christ and his words are written in our hearts and not a book. He is the word become flesh and he is our salvation. When communion time comes I am not worthy to recieve him but he only need say the WORD and I shall be healed.
 
P

prophecyman

Guest
#15
Uh-oh, controversyyyyy :p

Anywho, I know most people on here aren't Catholic, so I may post the odd thread on Catholic beliefs or questions regarding Catholicism. Not doing it to start an all out WAR, just for debate purposes :p

So firstly: We believe that during the Mass the priest transforms the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus.

Jesus said: "He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him." John 6:56

And there are various other Bible verses similar to this. I know I will be told that this is not to be taken literally, but that seems like choosing what you want to be literal or not.

Thoughts.
You are refering to the Catholic doctrine (teaching) of Transubnation, whereas the bread and wine (grape juice) is literally turned into the body and blood of Jesus.

What we to need to consider is, was this doctrine ever taught in the literal context by the Apostles? John 6:56 is a foretelling that those who believe should receive the promise of the Father, which is the Holy Spirit. Which in Colossians 1:27 is Christ in you the hope of glory.

The Holy Spirit is no different than the Spirit of Christ, for we read in the book of Acts how the early Church was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9 "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

Here is the scriptural proof that Jesus never meant that the blood and body was literally his blood and body, but was speaking of life in the Spirit.

John 14:17 "that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you."

John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."
 
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G

Graybeard

Guest
#16
what's the fuss???.....Jesus said to do it....."IN REMEMBRANCE OF HIM"
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#17
Verse 58 says we won't die.


This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.&#8221;


I think it might be wise, to read things in their entirety.


[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6SUtFCZQpA[/video]

It's very hard to argue against Sola Ecclesia. So this will likely be my only post here.
 
R

rodogg

Guest
#18
You are refering to the Catholic doctrine (teaching) of Transubnation, whereas the bread and wine (grape juice) is literally turned into the body and blood of Jesus.

What we to need to consider is, was this doctrine ever taught in the literal context by the Apostles? John 6:56 is a foretelling that those who believe should receive the promise of the Father, which is the Holy Spirit. Which in Colossians 1:27 is Christ in you the hope of glory.

The Holy Spirit is no different than the Spirit of Christ, for we read in the book of Acts how the early Church was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9 "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

Here is the scriptural proof that Jesus never meant that the blood and body was literally his blood and body, but was speaking of life in the Spirit.

John 14:17 "that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you."

John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."
Transubstantiation*

I don't see any scriptural proof against the body and blood in those verses, sorry.
 
R

rodogg

Guest
#20
the problem is you are taking on part of a verse which is part of a whole conversation jesus was having with people who he fed the day before, and came just looking for a handout and not the message Christ had. when taken in context. one oculd NOT come up with the literal translation of the verse you are using. now one must ask why?

1. the bread. what was Jesus comparing the bread of life he was offering to?


John 6: 26 - 27 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

jesus was making it clear. You worked to come all this way to get a free handout (bread) but would it not better to come to give what I was sent to give? Food (bread) which will endure to eternal life (endures forever)

if one thinks. Bread dies, that is why we have to keep eating. Jesus said the bread he came to give will never die. thus we will never hunger.


vs 35 - 40 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

Notice a very important thing Jesus said. What did he say would give them the bread? "COME TO ME and BELIEVE IN ME. which fits perfectly with the verse before. whan asked what work one had to do to get this bread.

vs 28 - 29 : Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

so we see in two separate parts of the passage exactly what they were told (and us) we are to do if we want this "bread of life"

Then Jesus told them, they do not believe. that is why they will not get this bread. But those who do recieve this bread, he made a promise.


36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

what a promise from God! Whoever receives this bread of life will have eternal life. and promised by Christ himself to be raised BY HIM on the last day. Add this to the previous passage that they will NEVER HUNGER, and we start to see a picture.

Jesus makes other promises to those who "eat this bread":

44 - 51 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

promises so far:

1. Never hunger or thirst
2. Live forever
3. Never Die
4. Be raised on the last day



And what did Jesus say one must do to recieve this bread?

1. Come to him,
2. Call out to him
3. Believe in him.
4. Listen to god, Learn from god. And believe in the message God came to give,

What is that meassage?

That christ will come and give his flesh for the life of the world (He will die on the cross)


Jesus goes on further to explain exactly what this means (to believe)

vs 61 -63 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

What is life? What is the bread? The thing we BELIEVE IN. And what is it that we believe? THE WORDS OF CHRIST. and who is it that speaks through Christ? THE SPIRIT. THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST!

He who believes has eternal life. Who who does not believe is condemned and shall never see life. Those sare the words of Christ.

No mention of a "mass" No mention of a Eucharist" no mention of a wafer of bread which turns to flesh, or cup which turns to blood. BELIEVE IN ME AND YOU WILL NEVER HUNGER, NEVER THIRST, LIVE FOREVER, NEVER DIE, BE RAISED ON THE LAST DAY"

The Eucharist promises non of this. why?

1. People eat this flesh, and still hunger. thus they need to keep eating it. Like the children of Israel ate manna
2. They still thirst, same as above
3. It does not promise anyone who eats it will have eternal life.
4. People can eat it and still die
5. Eating the flesh does not guarantee you will be raised by Christ, vs be delivered to him for Judgment.


Again, If one studies the WHOLE PASSAGE, instead of taking on part of one verse. they would see what the true BREAD OF LIFE IS'
I agree to some extent with what you are saying, in that Jesus gives himself as the bread of life for us that whoever believes in him will have eternal life, however I take literally what Jesus said when he said "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood...". We don't eat it as a food for our flesh, but as a spiritual food, so that Jesus will dwell within us, just as you quoted: "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”