Body and Blood

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R

rodogg

Guest
#21
It is not symbolic. Christians of all denominations Bible is the literal word of God. First there was the word as it says in John. The words of Christ carry significance and meaning. Ok lets pose this question....were the words of Christ in action or symbolic. In the Parables yes they were in fact symbolic in order to teach. However when his words meant action they were fact. He told the sick arise and walk, that was not symbolic. He transformed water into wine, that was not symbolic. He said Lasurus Arise and walk after he was in the tomb for 3 days. Was that Symbolic? When he said Satan Leave him, was that symbolic and not to be taken literally? So to Catholics when he said This is my Body take it and eat from it. It is not symbolism. I am not a President but in this case I know what the meaning of IS is. He took the cup and said this IS my blood. Transmigration of Spirit what he said will be him. The word becomes fact. It is his body and his blood to the spirit to feed the soul.The last supper had meaning in fact and had a symbolic meaning to it I do agree that he was to be the sacrificial lamb. But His words say airse sick. When he said to Peter come walk on the water. When he said I am the Truth and the Life there was truth. IF this has no meaning as fact then what are we doing here what are we believing. Wake up. The anit Christ will know everything about scripture and the best way for him to win is to have us fighting amoungst ourselves. Divide and Conquer. My eyes are on Christ and his words are written in our hearts and not a book. He is the word become flesh and he is our salvation. When communion time comes I am not worthy to recieve him but he only need say the WORD and I shall be healed.
Completely agreed. Who decided his is only symbolic? Jesus said what he said, and if Jesus said it, I want to do it. We can all, and a lot of people do, claim that Jesus meant something else by what he said, but as you said, unless he was speaking in parable, I take him literally. Another point is, people can look past the physical; see it as unimportant, as if these bodies are just something to wait around in while we wait for Heaven, but God obviously likes flesh, material, matter, the physical, since he made us with it, and sent us Jesus in real, physical flesh, and so he gave us physical food for our souls, in the Eucharist.
 
R

rodogg

Guest
#22
Verse 58 says we won't die.


This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”


I think it might be wise, to read things in their entirety.


It's very hard to argue against Sola Ecclesia. So this will likely be my only post here.
As I said to another person on this thread, the Eucharist is spiritual food, for the soul, not for the body. So that verse doesn't contradict what I'm saying.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#23
As I said to another person on this thread, the Eucharist is spiritual food, for the soul, not for the body. So that verse doesn't contradict what I'm saying.
Spiritual food. So you don't take that part literally?


He says he's bread. :p
 
R

rodogg

Guest
#24
Spiritual food. So you don't take that part literally?


He says he's bread. :p
I don't think its THAT hard a concept :p

Obviously the bread is physical. Yes. But it is nourishing our souls.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#25
I agree to some extent with what you are saying, in that Jesus gives himself as the bread of life for us that whoever believes in him will have eternal life, however I take literally what Jesus said when he said "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood...". We don't eat it as a food for our flesh, but as a spiritual food, so that Jesus will dwell within us, just as you quoted: "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
yet as a Catholic you continually eat this "flesh" over and over. and are not assured you will live forever, or that you have eternal life.

so you see my issue with the catholic and other faith doctrines of the eucharist,

Paul said one needs to eat meat and not only milk. He was not talking about literal milk or meat. But spiritual. Meaning one should not just feed on doctrines which are considered milk for the immature christian. But doctrines which will make one mature in Christ.

This is what Jesus meant when he said it is the spirit which gives life. THE WORDS HE SPOKE ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE.


The words are what gives life. We better knaw, chew, or whatever on these words which will give whoever believes in these words of God paul called the Gospel. so we can spend eternity with him. Because this is what Jesus was talking about.
 
P

prophecyman

Guest
#26
Transubstantiation*

I don't see any scriptural proof against the body and blood in those verses, sorry.
Are you blind? Read this verse again... It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

The flesh profits noting!
 
R

rodogg

Guest
#27
yet as a Catholic you continually eat this "flesh" over and over. and are not assured you will live forever, or that you have eternal life.

so you see my issue with the catholic and other faith doctrines of the eucharist,

Paul said one needs to eat meat and not only milk. He was not talking about literal milk or meat. But spiritual. Meaning one should not just feed on doctrines which are considered milk for the immature christian. But doctrines which will make one mature in Christ.

This is what Jesus meant when he said it is the spirit which gives life. THE WORDS HE SPOKE ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE.


The words are what gives life. We better knaw, chew, or whatever on these words which will give whoever believes in these words of God paul called the Gospel. so we can spend eternity with him. Because this is what Jesus was talking about.
Yes I do continually eat this flesh over and over, but not because I am not assured that I will live forever, but because, believing as I do, that this is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, I am greedy for it! I desire it more and more! Again, it is not like the manna which was food from heaven to nourish the body. this is food to nourish the soul.

You said "This is what Jesus meant", you should have said "This is what I believe Jesus meant".

I agree about ingesting as much of the word of God as is possible, but that's metaphorical. Jesus did not say anything about it being a metaphor or a representation when he said the words "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood...", although you think that what he said in other places in Scripture draw this conclusion, Jesus still said what he said. Another problem I have is that the Eucharist was the food of the early Church, it isn't a modern doctrine, so it was instituted, in terms of time, closer to Christ than us, but that's just a thought with no real elaboration...
 
R

rodogg

Guest
#28
Are you blind? Read this verse again... It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

The flesh profits noting!
No I'm not blind. I can see what you have said. In what way does this negate the existence of Jesus in the Eucharist?
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#29
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

Jesus says he is the bread of life.


Wonder, or Sarah Lee?

, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood,

Are you eating his flesh and drinking his blood?
 
R

rodogg

Guest
#30



35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

Jesus says he is the bread of life.


Wonder, or Sarah Lee?

, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood,

Are you eating his flesh and drinking his blood?



Yes, those quotes agree with what I'm saying.
Wonder or Sarah Lee? What ?

Anyway... Yes, I am eating His flesh and drinking His blood.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#31
Yes, those quotes agree with what I'm saying.
Wonder or Sarah Lee? What ?
Jesus said he is the bread of life.


Which do you prefer? Wonder, or Sara Lee?






Anyway... Yes, I am eating His flesh and drinking His blood.
Ritualistic Cannibalism.
 
R

rodogg

Guest
#32
Jesus said he is the bread of life.


Which do you prefer? Wonder, or Sara Lee?







Ritualistic Cannibalism.
Oh ok I didn't get your hilarity since we don't have those brand in Ireland :p

And yeah I was waiting on the Cannibalism thing. Nice.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#33
Oh ok I didn't get your hilarity since we don't have those brand in Ireland :p
Which one do you prefer?


And yeah I was waiting on the Cannibalism thing. Nice.
What does the bible say about Cannibalism?
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#34
the problem is you are taking on part of a verse which is part of a whole conversation jesus was having with people who he fed the day before, and came just looking for a handout and not the message Christ had. when taken in context. one oculd NOT come up with the literal translation of the verse you are using. now one must ask why?

1. the bread. what was Jesus comparing the bread of life he was offering to?


John 6: 26 - 27 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

jesus was making it clear. You worked to come all this way to get a free handout (bread) but would it not better to come to give what I was sent to give? Food (bread) which will endure to eternal life (endures forever)

if one thinks. Bread dies, that is why we have to keep eating. Jesus said the bread he came to give will never die. thus we will never hunger.


vs 35 - 40 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

Notice a very important thing Jesus said. What did he say would give them the bread? "COME TO ME and BELIEVE IN ME. which fits perfectly with the verse before. whan asked what work one had to do to get this bread.

vs 28 - 29 : Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

so we see in two separate parts of the passage exactly what they were told (and us) we are to do if we want this "bread of life"

Then Jesus told them, they do not believe. that is why they will not get this bread. But those who do recieve this bread, he made a promise.


36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

what a promise from God! Whoever receives this bread of life will have eternal life. and promised by Christ himself to be raised BY HIM on the last day. Add this to the previous passage that they will NEVER HUNGER, and we start to see a picture.

Jesus makes other promises to those who "eat this bread":

44 - 51 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

promises so far:

1. Never hunger or thirst
2. Live forever
3. Never Die
4. Be raised on the last day



And what did Jesus say one must do to recieve this bread?

1. Come to him,
2. Call out to him
3. Believe in him.
4. Listen to god, Learn from god. And believe in the message God came to give,

What is that meassage?

That christ will come and give his flesh for the life of the world (He will die on the cross)


Jesus goes on further to explain exactly what this means (to believe)

vs 61 -63 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

What is life? What is the bread? The thing we BELIEVE IN. And what is it that we believe? THE WORDS OF CHRIST. and who is it that speaks through Christ? THE SPIRIT. THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST!

He who believes has eternal life. Who who does not believe is condemned and shall never see life. Those sare the words of Christ.

No mention of a "mass" No mention of a Eucharist" no mention of a wafer of bread which turns to flesh, or cup which turns to blood. BELIEVE IN ME AND YOU WILL NEVER HUNGER, NEVER THIRST, LIVE FOREVER, NEVER DIE, BE RAISED ON THE LAST DAY"

The Eucharist promises non of this. why?

1. People eat this flesh, and still hunger. thus they need to keep eating it. Like the children of Israel ate manna
2. They still thirst, same as above
3. It does not promise anyone who eats it will have eternal life.
4. People can eat it and still die
5. Eating the flesh does not guarantee you will be raised by Christ, vs be delivered to him for Judgment.


Again, If one studies the WHOLE PASSAGE, instead of taking on part of one verse. they would see what the true BREAD OF LIFE IS'
That is true EG and just to add to that
John 6:60-63
(60) Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
(61) When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
(62) What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
(63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


There were people who heard Jesus did not understand and Jesus explains what He was saying

John 6:67-68
(67) Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
(68) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Psalms 119:50
(50) This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened (given life) me.



 
R

rodogg

Guest
#35
Which one do you prefer?



What does the bible say about Cannibalism?
I can't tell if you're being in some way serious or just trying to make a mockery of this thread. I have no response to your Cannibalism talk... If you are being sincere about it then perhaps...
 
C

CrimsonFlames

Guest
#37
yes he said eat my flesh., but in John it says and the WORD became flesh

to eat his flesh means to digest his WORD

What is so hard about this?
 
R

rodogg

Guest
#38
yes he said eat my flesh., but in John it says and the WORD became flesh

to eat his flesh means to digest his WORD

What is so hard about this?
Your frustrations are my frustrations also. We're both seeing it from different angles. The Word became flesh. Ok. While flesh, He said to eat His flesh and drink His blood. He did not say it metaphorically. While I understand YOUR belief, my belief differs.
 
N

NickInCali

Guest
#39
i can't find scripture for wine
but this is what i have found:
"cup" or "fruit of the vine."

but normally
Red wine--symbolizes blood of Christ
So if I understand, you believe Jesus actually DID give his disciples grape juice, not wine, at the Last Supper?
 
N

NickInCali

Guest
#40
Are you blind? Read this verse again... It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

The flesh profits noting!
Think very carefully about how far you'd like to take the application of that verse. Are you claiming that Jesus' actual, PHYSICAL death on the cross profited nothing for us spiritually?