RAPTURE, PRE OR POST?

[Avinu]

AS MOST OF US KNOW, 1 COR. 15:52 IN A MOMENT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, AT THE LAST TRUMPET.
FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND, AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED.

AND 1 THESS. 4:16-17 16) FOR THE LORD HIMSELF WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF AN ARCH ANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMPET OF GOD.
AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. 17) THEN WE WHO ARE... ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. AND THUS WE SHALL ALWAYS BE WITH THE LORD.

AS MOST OF US KNOW THAT THESE ARE 2 OF MOST USED AND FAVORITE PASSAGES IN SCRIPTURE FOR PRE-TRIB EVIDENCE.

SO LETS LOOK AT 1 CORINTHIANS FIRST, IN IT, IT SAYS AT THE 'LAST' TRUMP. THE GREEK WORD FOR LAST IS 'ESCHATOS' WHICH MEANS, (FARTHEST, FINAL, LAST, UTTERMOST. SO HERE THIS VERSE SAYS AT THE FINAL TRUMP, THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE. HMMMM.

NOW LETS LOOK AT 1 THESS. IN VERSE 16, THE WORD DESCEND IN THE GREEK IS 'KATABAINO' MEANING TO COME DOWN FROM, SO THIS MEANS YESHUA IS COMING DOWN FROM. ALSO IN VERSE 16, "WITH A SHOUT" THE GREEK WORD 'KELEUMA' WHICH MEANS A CRY OF INCITEMENT' SO NOT A SILENT EVENT. V.17 "WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN" THE WORD REMAIN IN THE GREEK IS 'PERILEIPO' WHICH MEANS TO LEAVE ALL AROUND, SURVIVE' HMMM, WHO HAVE SURVIVED.

NOW LETS LOOK AT REV. 20:4-5 4)AND I SAW THRONES, AND THEY SAT ON THEM, AND JUDGEMENT WAS COMMITTED TO THEM. THEN I SAW THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD BEEN BEHEADED FOR THEIR WITNESS TO YESHUA AND FOR THE WORD OF YHVH, WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPED THE BEAST OR HIS IMAGE, AND HAD NOT RECEIVED HIS MARK ON THEIR FORHEADS OR ON THEIR HANDS. AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST FOR A THOUSAND YRS. 5) BUT THE REST OF THE DEADDID NOT LIVE AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

SO HERE IN REVELATION 20 IT IS TELLING US THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED IN THE TRIBULATION AND DIDN'T TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST WERE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 THESS. 4 ABOUT THE DEAD WILL RISE FIRST, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 COR. 15 AT THE LAST TRUMP AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORUPTIBLE.
THE KEY HERE IS THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
THEN THAT WOULD MEAN THAT THERE COULDN'T BE A RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS BEFORE THE TRIB. IF THEY ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

WHICH WOULD THEN FOLLOW WITH HEBREWS 9:28 SO MESSIAH WAS OFFERED ONCE TO BEAR THE SINS OF MANY. TO THOSE WHO EAGERLY WAIT FOR HIM HE WILL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, APART FROM SIN, FOR SALVATION.

SO ALL THIS TELLS US THAT YESHUA WILL COME A SECOND TIME, AND THE FIRST RESURRECTION IS NOT UNTIL THOSE WHO ARE BEHEADED IN THE GREAT TRIBULATION. THAT MEANS THAT PRE-TRIB IS A LIE. SCRIPTURE BACKS UP SCRIPTURE, BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHINGS. SHALOM

 

[jonathanbchristian]

I am post-trib because of Matthew 24:29-31. I believe that it is hopeful to believe in the post-trib rapture; not everyone will be beheaded during the Tribulation because there are those who are "alive and remain". Notice that every Christian goes in the rapture, the dead and the living. Pre-Trib believers need to explain why there are Christians in the Tribulation. Where did they come from if every Christian dead or alive is raptured? Many of the Pre-Trib Rapture beliefs are false. They say God would not put us through the Tribulation, but the fact is, that there are Christians mentioned in the Bible during the Tribulation many times. Like you mentioned some will be beheaded. Some will be sealed. All will be raptured as Matthew 24:29-31 says.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

AS MOST OF US KNOW, 1 COR. 15:52 IN A MOMENT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, AT THE LAST TRUMPET.
FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND, AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED.

AND 1 THESS. 4:16-17 16) FOR THE LORD HIMSELF WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF AN ARCH ANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMPET OF GOD.
AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. 17) THEN WE WHO ARE... ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. AND THUS WE SHALL ALWAYS BE WITH THE LORD.

AS MOST OF US KNOW THAT THESE ARE 2 OF MOST USED AND FAVORITE PASSAGES IN SCRIPTURE FOR PRE-TRIB EVIDENCE.

SO LETS LOOK AT 1 CORINTHIANS FIRST, IN IT, IT SAYS AT THE 'LAST' TRUMP. THE GREEK WORD FOR LAST IS 'ESCHATOS' WHICH MEANS, (FARTHEST, FINAL, LAST, UTTERMOST. SO HERE THIS VERSE SAYS AT THE FINAL TRUMP, THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE. HMMMM.

NOW LETS LOOK AT 1 THESS. IN VERSE 16, THE WORD DESCEND IN THE GREEK IS 'KATABAINO' MEANING TO COME DOWN FROM, SO THIS MEANS YESHUA IS COMING DOWN FROM. ALSO IN VERSE 16, "WITH A SHOUT" THE GREEK WORD 'KELEUMA' WHICH MEANS A CRY OF INCITEMENT' SO NOT A SILENT EVENT. V.17 "WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN" THE WORD REMAIN IN THE GREEK IS 'PERILEIPO' WHICH MEANS TO LEAVE ALL AROUND, SURVIVE' HMMM, WHO HAVE SURVIVED.

NOW LETS LOOK AT REV. 20:4-5 4)AND I SAW THRONES, AND THEY SAT ON THEM, AND JUDGEMENT WAS COMMITTED TO THEM. THEN I SAW THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD BEEN BEHEADED FOR THEIR WITNESS TO YESHUA AND FOR THE WORD OF YHVH, WHO HAD NOT WORSHIPED THE BEAST OR HIS IMAGE, AND HAD NOT RECEIVED HIS MARK ON THEIR FORHEADS OR ON THEIR HANDS. AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST FOR A THOUSAND YRS. 5) BUT THE REST OF THE DEADDID NOT LIVE AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

SO HERE IN REVELATION 20 IT IS TELLING US THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED IN THE TRIBULATION AND DIDN'T TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST WERE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 THESS. 4 ABOUT THE DEAD WILL RISE FIRST, WHICH GOES ALONG WITH 1 COR. 15 AT THE LAST TRUMP AND THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORUPTIBLE.
THE KEY HERE IS THAT THOSE WHO WERE BEHEADED ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
THEN THAT WOULD MEAN THAT THERE COULDN'T BE A RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS BEFORE THE TRIB. IF THEY ARE A PART OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

WHICH WOULD THEN FOLLOW WITH HEBREWS 9:28 SO MESSIAH WAS OFFERED ONCE TO BEAR THE SINS OF MANY. TO THOSE WHO EAGERLY WAIT FOR HIM HE WILL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, APART FROM SIN, FOR SALVATION.

SO ALL THIS TELLS US THAT YESHUA WILL COME A SECOND TIME, AND THE FIRST RESURRECTION IS NOT UNTIL THOSE WHO ARE BEHEADED IN THE GREAT TRIBULATION. THAT MEANS THAT PRE-TRIB IS A LIE. SCRIPTURE BACKS UP SCRIPTURE, BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHINGS. SHALOM

Dear Avinu, Without going into all of these details, it is clear from Matthew 24:29ff. that the resurrection

of the Church occurs after the tribulations of the future times, whenever that time of tribulation shall

be. In Erie Scott R. Harrington

 

[Avinu]

To Scott and Jonathan, I couldn't agree more, I think Matt. 24:29-31 just makes more case of the lie of pre-trib. Shalom to you both.

 

[peterT]

To Scott and Jonathan, I couldn't agree more, I think Matt. 24:29-31 just makes more case of the lie of pre-trib. Shalom to you both.

Hi Avinu, Scott and Jonathan

I like to look at the post-trib from two different angles.

Matt24 29 Immediately after the tribulation
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet

And

Rv11 the two end time witnesses are killed by the beast and raised from the dead in the clouds at the last trumpet. Immediately after the tribulation

This then becomes a double edged sword which exposés the pre-trib even more.

 

[Bloodwashed]

I'm pan-trib! It will all pan out!
I'm not overly fond of pre-trib. I was raised with it. Lots of folks just wanting out of here!
I lean towards post! The only thing I know for sure is this same Jesus shall come again, as you see Him go!
Oh Blessed Day! Love Mark!

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

Here are some articles you might find interesting.

View topic - The 7-year Tribulation Darby/Scofield Myth Jesus Christ Forums
rapture&tribulation - notjustnotes

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

 

[Laodicea]

SO LETS LOOK AT 1 CORINTHIANS FIRST, IN IT, IT SAYS AT THE 'LAST' TRUMP. THE GREEK WORD FOR LAST IS 'ESCHATOS' WHICH MEANS, (FARTHEST, FINAL, LAST, UTTERMOST. SO HERE THIS VERSE SAYS AT THE FINAL TRUMP, THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE. HMMMM.

God Bless you
John 6:39-40
(39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
(40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

To me last day means what it says, it is not 7 years before

 

[lookinup]

I hope we as believers are united with our Lord before we have to see all the suffering but if we experience it then we do no more than our brethren who came before. Maranatha!!

 

[Saul_Durian]

Sorry, couldn't resist

 

[prophecyman]

I am post-Trib, its been two years since Jesus taught me about this wonderful Truth, imagine the expression on the Elders faces when I declared without hesitation that the Church will go through the Tribulation, imagine even more so when I denied the doctrine of imminence.

Did you know that Jesus told Peter that when he is old he will hold out his hands and others will take him where he ought not. This he spake concerning what death he would glorify the Lord... HMMM? He told him that before he ascended; it appears from that vantage point when Peter was young that he knew that he would grow old and die, and what he further knew was that Jesus was yet to come even after his death, for it would not be in his life time.

This was a clue that the Apostles knew of the resurrection at the last day... Remember that Martha declared to the Lord that she knew Lazarus would be raised on the last day, and Jesus said... I am the resurrection! GLORY, I CAN JUST SHOUT THE HOUSE DOWN AND RUN THE CHURCH LANES!

 

[Crossfire]

Sorry, couldn't resist

*lol* Funny. I remember the Macho Man. A very interesting character to say the least. I'm sure his autobiography would make for an interesting read. It's too bad that he passed away. I do pray that he found peace with the Lord before his passing.

 

[Crossfire]

Personally, I tend to lean more toward a mid-trib / pre-wrath rapture. I believe that scripture makes it clear that believers will be transformed into their ressurection bodies before the bowls of God's wrath are dispersed upon mankind. When that occurs exactly during the scheme of things, either near the middle or the end of tribulation, remains to be a topic for further study.

I've also noticed that the book of Revelation is not one large vision but a series of visions. For example, chapters 1 - 3 appears to be one vision, chapters 4 - 11 is another vision, another vision begins with chapter 12. While I'm not finished with my study of Revelation, I'm confident that there is at least two more visions (maybe more) as the book unfolds, which is why certain elements, namely the beasts and the return of Christ, seem to appear / occur more than once. Some visions being a retelling of certain of events with different detail.

 

[peterT]

Personally, I tend to lean more toward a mid-trib / pre-wrath rapture. I believe that scripture makes it clear that believers will be transformed into their ressurection bodies before the bowls of God's wrath are dispersed upon mankind.

I can see that two but not before the great tribulation and the beast


1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


There we are , stand on the sea of glass after getting the victory over the beast, and over his image, then the wrath comes upon the wiked that have the mark.


2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,


Tribulation then the seven angels having the seven last plagues;

 

[Avinu]

YHVH bless you too Laodicea.

 

[midwestbob]

Personally, I tend to lean more toward a mid-trib / pre-wrath rapture. I believe that scripture makes it clear that believers will be transformed into their ressurection bodies before the bowls of God's wrath are dispersed upon mankind. When that occurs exactly during the scheme of things, either near the middle or the end of tribulation, remains to be a topic for further study.

I can see that two but not before the great tribulation and the beast


1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


There we are , stand on the sea of glass after getting the victory over the beast, and over his image, then the wrath comes upon the wiked that have the mark.

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Tribulation then the seven angels having the seven last plagues;

Crossfire and Peter T Wouldn’t the fact that we are taken at the last trump eliminate the possibility of a mid trib rapture?

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the
Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

There are some verses in Scripture that can be interpreted in various ways, but the above quotes are not among them. These verses are direct declarations of spiritual truth. They are clear statements of fact. These Scriptures, 2Th 1: 7-10, 1Co 15: 52, Rev 10: 6-7 and Rev 11:15, are either true as they stand, or they are lies. If any of the above verses stood alone, maybe a pre or mid trib view position could be supported, but these four quotes above teach us exactly the same thing

1. 1Co 15:52, states that the Church is taken to be with the Lord at the Last Trumpet, and not before.
2. Our trumpet is the LAST trumpet. As a result, it would have to include the seven trumpets in Revelation, or it would not be the Last Trumpet.
3. Rev 10:6, states that at the 7th trumpet, there is “no more time,” KJV.
4. Rev 10:7, states that at the 7th trumpet, “the mystery of God is finished.”
5. Rev 11:15, states that at the 7th trumpet (which is the last), God reigns “for ever and ever.”
6 2Th 1:7-10, says that the wicked have their final judgment on the same day that the Lord comes for the saints.

If we are taken at the last trump and at the last trump there is time no more , then how can there be time for the last half of the tribulation.?

If we are taken at the last trump and at the last trump the mystery of God is finished, then how could the bowls of wrath come after that? Aren’t they part of the mystery of God?

 

[peterT]

Crossfire and Peter T Wouldn’t the fact that we are taken at the last trump eliminate the possibility of a mid trib rapture?

yes

If we are taken at the last trump and at the last trump there is time no more , then how can there be time for the last half of the tribulation.?

Just wondering where do you get a 7 year tribulation?
I think that is what you are saying yes?

Me personally I don’t think there is a mid-trib rapture
He comes at the last trumpet at the end of the great tribulation.

then there will be time no longer for us, and then I see the seven angels having the seven last plagues come upon the people that have the mark of the beast.

1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

There we are , stand on the sea of glass after getting the victory over the beast, and over his image, then the wrath comes upon the wiked that have the mark.

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Tribulation then the seven angels having the seven last plagues;

 

[midwestbob]

Just wondering where do you get a 7 year tribulation?
I think that is what you are saying yes?

Not at all not once did I mention 7 years. We would be hard pressed to say the tribulation is only 7 years.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ
If John was already in tribulation while on the isle of Patmos I’d have to say it lasts much longer then just 7 years.

Me personally I don’t think there is a mid-trib rapture

I’m sorry I misunderstood you, I thought when you said “I can see that two but not before the great tribulation and the beast” you were agreeing that we were taken mid trib.

 

[peterT]

Not at all not once did I mention 7 years. We would be hard pressed to say the tribulation is only 7 years.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ
If John was already in tribulation while on the isle of Patmos I’d have to say it lasts much longer then just 7 years.



I’m sorry I misunderstood you, I thought when you said “I can see that two but not before the great tribulation and the beast” you were agreeing that we were taken mid trib.

No I was commenting about when he said pre-wrath rapture not mid-trib

 

[See_KING_Truth]

Matthew 24
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus gets right to the point here, it is plain as day that the rapture will be post tribulation, however, the period of tribulation will be shortened for the elect's sake.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.