RAPTURE, PRE OR POST?

1Christianwarrior316 · Dec 28, 2011

I have to disagree.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Since scripture says this is the last trump, it would also have to include the seven trumps of Revelation. And I believe scripture verifies this.

Rev 10:6 And swore by him that liveth forever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Revelation 10:6 says “there should be time no longer:” (7th trump)

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 10:7 says “ the mystery of God should be finished,” (7th trump)

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.

Revelation 11:15 says “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.” (7th trump)

Since we (the Church) are taken at the last trump, it would also have to include the seven trumpets of Revelation.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

shroom2 · Dec 29, 2011

"Whew, I barely made it home. I caught the last bus."

Was it literally the last bus EVER?

So it is with the last trump. The trumpets at the rapture will be a heralding, an announcement of an event. Not unlike the bugles that sound prior to the Kentucky Derby.

I believe it is a mistake to think the "last trump" refers to the seventh trumpet in Revelation.

midwestbob · Dec 29, 2011

shroom2 said:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last(Greek eschatos, meaning final or uttermost) trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and weshall be changed.

The verse tells us it is the last trump. Either the verse is true as it written or it is a lie. The verse contains no qualifiers or exceptions. The verse doesn’t say it is the last trump of the festival of …….. The verse doesn’t say the last trump except for…. It says it is the last trump. No other trump will come after this trump. Scripture does not lie if Scripture says it is the last trump it is the last trump.

shroom2 · Dec 29, 2011

midwestbob said:

"Whew, I barely made it home. I caught the last bus."

This sentence tells us it was THE LAST bus. Either the sentence is true as it is written or it is a lie. The sentence contains no qualifiers or exceptions. The sentence doesn't say it is the last bus of the day, or the last bus for the NY metro system. It says it was THE last bus. No other bus will come after this bus. The sentence doesn't lie if it says it is the last bus it is the LAST BUS.

(of course we all know it isn't THE LAST BUS EVER)

Another example might be "My wife ate the last piece of candy". It was "the final" piece of candy. Was it the last piece of candy EVER?

Click here to see other usages of the word eschatos:

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

The "last trump" can indeed mean something other than the 7th trump of Revelation.

midwestbob · Dec 29, 2011

shroom2 said:

Using your example, either no bus will come after it or the sentence is a fallacy (unintenional lie). There is no qualifier in your sentence that says it is the last bus of the day. So we have no reason to believe another bus will run based solely on your statement. While your intent may have been the last bus of the day, that is not what you said, so the sentence is a fallacy (unintentional lie).

Once again if you say your wife at the last piece of candy and it wasn’t the last piece ever, that would be a lie. For your statement to be true you would have to add a qualifier such as in the bag . While it is true that people quite often make statements like those you cite. I have no reason to believe God would do so. In the examples you cite the intent may have been the last bus of the day or the last piece of candy from the bag, but as stated (without qualifiers) they are still fallacy (unintentional lies). Scripture is the inspired word of God. Do you honestly believe that the inspired word of God contains fallacy (an unintentional lie)?

The last trump can not come before the seventh trump of Rev, or Scripture contains a fallacy (unintentional lie). We both know that isn’t the case. So we can either accept the verse as it is written or one can presume to know the mind of God and add a qualifier or exception to justify not believing the Word as it is written.. As for me, I'll accept the verse as written and do believe it is the last (final) trump.

shroom2 · Dec 29, 2011

midwestbob said:

Eph 4:15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Do you accept that verse as written? Following your logic, one can assume from this verse that we can grow up into Christ in drunkenness. It plainly says "all things", right? Or is that verse an unintentional lie?

(I'm not saying you would think of that verse this way. I'm just trying to make my point.)

I believe it's error to try and force the "last trump" in 1 Cor 15:52 to be the seventh trumpet in Rev.

Calmador · Dec 29, 2011

Just wanna say it doesnt matter, be ready for it. Be ready for the rapture... knowing about the details, I suppose its nice but more importantly be ready. It's like talking about an earthqauke... theres an earthquak coming... yeah when do you think it'll come? Just be ready and since this is a christian forum, GET OTHERS READY.

Brigitte · Dec 29, 2011

Avinu said:

There are no scriptures that state that no one will become Christian during the tribulation. Also, it always has been during chaos, disasters and trials that people turn to God for help. It is rarely when everything goes well and seems perfect.

Avinu · Dec 29, 2011

I agree with this statement, but it actually talks about in Revelation people refusing to repent of their sins in the tribulation. Doesn't mean there won't be anyone saved, but I find it curious that this time of tribulation talks about people continuing to rebel instead of repent with everything around them going horribly wrong. Shalom

midwestbob · Dec 30, 2011

shroom2 said:

One might jump to that conclusion if they read that verse by itself but when put in its proper context we can see that isn’t the case. Now when it comes to the verse in 1Cor15:52 reading the surrounding verses does not change the context in any way that would indicate the verse would mean anything other then exactly what it says “the last trump”.

You are entitled to your opinion But lets have a look at a few verses and see if anything ties the trump of 1Cor115:52 to the 7th trump of Rev.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be
revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not
God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Th1:7-10 tells us the wicked are judged at the same time as we are taken, then that must mean they are judged at the last trump 1Cor15:52. Is there anything in Scripture that specifies which trump the wicked are judged at? Sure Rev11:15

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and
he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon
their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and
art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

For2Th1:7-10 to be true then the last trump of 1Cor15:52 and the 7th trump of Rev11:15 must be the same. Precept upon precept, line upon line. No need to add qualifiers or find an exception.

Maybe the error lies in trying to make ‘the last trump, the last trump except for… or the last trump of the festival…..

shroom2 · Dec 30, 2011

midwestbob said:

No, it doesn't. You assume "shall come to be glorified in his saints" means when "we are taken". We will be taken before then, and be returning with him.

Because of your incorrect assumption above, you arrive at an incorrect conclusion here.

Maybe. But I do not think so. If I am wrong, and Christians are to go through the trib, then..... I will go through the trib (assuming I don't die first). But until then, I believe the bible teaches Christians will not go through it. We will be gathered together before it starts.

midwestbob · Dec 30, 2011

shroom2 said:

So we are taken before this but not glorified? Doesn't that happen when we are taken as the bride of Christ?

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So John was wrong?

Tribulation is promised for the saints, John 16:33 and 2 Timothy 3:12 being examples. For Christians, tribulation has continued unabated throughout the Christian Era. The word for tribulation, θλίψις, thlip’sis, appears 37 times in the Greek New Testament manuscripts. In every instance but one, thlip’sis is to and for God’s children.
“In the world ye shall have tribulation (thlip’sis)
but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” John 16:33
“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” 2 Timothy 3:12
If we Christians aren’t suffering persecution, it’s because we’ve done nothing to deserve it!

shroom2 · Dec 30, 2011

midwestbob said:

I agree! If we are living for the Lord, we will suffer persecution. But any persecution or tribulation we suffer now cannot be compared with the events that will transpire during THE 7 year tribulation described in Revelation. It will be a truly evil time, with many cataclysmic events.

Avinu · Dec 30, 2011

Shroom, just for the sake of arguement, no where in Rev. or anywhere else in the Bible is it ever called 7 yr. tribulation. The time of tribulation is called a times, time and half a time, Daniel 12, 42 months Rev. 13, 1260 days. The actual tribulation period is only 3 1/2 yrs. Shalom

shroom2 · Dec 30, 2011

Avinu said:

There will be two three and a half year periods, totaling seven years.

Avinu · Dec 30, 2011

There is a 7 yr. deal made, but there is only one 3 1/2 yr. tribulation period, there is not 7 yrs. of tribulation and Rev. doesn't say there is. So if you say it does please show your evidence.

Shilo · Dec 31, 2011

Brigitte said:

2 thess 2:9-11
9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,

It looks like the line in the sand is drawn at the abomination of desolation.

nath1234 · Dec 31, 2011

midwestbob said:

Not at all not once did I mention 7 years. We would be hard pressed to say the tribulation is only 7 years.

as for the 7 years this comes fron the book of daniel there is a time declared for Israle of 70 weeks of years

Dan 9:24 "Seventy 'sevens' [fn] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish [fn] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. [fn]
so the70 7s are 70 sets of 7 years

Dan 9:25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree [fn] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, [fn] the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

7 sets of 7 years and
62 sets of 7 years

=69 sets of 7 years so there is 1 set of seven years left over to make up the 70

so form the time the comand is given to rebuild the temple with streets and walls to the coming of the messia which is Jessus Christ will be 62 sets of 7 years

Da

n 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [fn] In the middle of the 'seven' [fn] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [fn]" [fn]

this final 7 years is the what many people call the great tribulation however the great tribulation is realy only the last 3.5 years after the ruler breaks the covanent with the Jews you will find many mentions of a 3.5 year periould measured in (weeks days years) in revalation i think this refers to the 2nd part of the 7 years

you also want to study the proficy of statue specificily the feet of iron and clay and the 2nd one with the beasts as it is the same proficy repeated in paralell with the beast in revalation

oh and as for the gap between the coming of Jesus christ and the last set of 7

it is interesting to note where Jesus stops when reading from the book of Isaiah in luke 4 16

Isaiah 61
1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,

Jesus does not read And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn, he stops at a comma has been in place for 2000 years untill a world ruler makes a 7 year peace treaty with Israle

well that is atleast how i see it

also im pre trib but thats another post maybe

Nath

nath1234 · Dec 31, 2011

Avinu said:

see my other post

Nath

nath1234 · Dec 31, 2011

mm the Rapture pre or post can of worms

one important thing to note when figering out the rapture pre or post is to note

although the church and Israle are the same in many ways they are different entitys

and the way God deals with the church is different to the way God deals with Israle

there are promises made to Israle that are not made to the church

my under standing of it goes like this

church raptured
this is because while the church is on the scene Israle is on pause or has been set aside and once the church is removed God can once again deal with Israle ie 70 weeks proficy as previously mentioned

7years ie 3.5 years of peace then 3.5 years of tribulation

then Jesus comes to Israle and they will accept him as there messia

Luke 17:26-30New King James Version (NKJV)

26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

as from this verse we can see that the days of Noa are a picture of the tribulation

so God protected Noa and his family through the tribulation but i think this is a picture if Israle and how God will protect Israle through the tribulation

i think the picture of the church is that of enoch who was raptured before the tribulation

one of the purposes of the tribulation is so Israle will return to God
Hosea 5:15

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

I pray for the day when when the messia will return to Israle and i pray for the peace of Israle
and i know the Almighty God wawtches over you always

Psalm 121:4

New King James Version (NKJV)

4 Behold, He who keeps Israel
Shall neither slumber nor sleep.

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