Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, heresy is a work of the flesh (Gal.5)

[tribesman]

The natural/unregenerate man can not work up true faith by his own efforts, or even at his own will. Such faith is a fruit of the Spirit that comes with regeneration, which is wholly a work of God.

Galatians 5:22 makes it clear that faith is a fruit of the Spirit. Of course, this must mean believing the truth, the gospel, and it must also mean that all souls that possesses such faith are regenerate. Prior to regeneration it is not possible to have the fruit of the Spirit and as a result of regeneration its fruit is produced, among which is faith. It is typical of regenerates that they do have saving faith in Christ Jesus, whose person and work they have come to know.

Galatians 5:20 says that heresies is a work of the flesh. And in the next verse there's a warning that people who continue in such works "shall not inherit the Kingdom of God". This work of the flesh must of course mean believing lies and false gospels and it must also mean that all souls that do this wicked work of the flesh are unregenerate. It is typical of unregenerates that they will believe and teach blatant heresies, they will expound on matters they do not know or understand, and the reason for it is simply because they are not born again.

If any child of God should stray away however, he is called back to the fold. God will lose none of His (Matt.18:12-14).

 

[Red33]

The natural/unregenerate man can not work up true faith by his own efforts, or even at his own will. Such faith is a fruit of the Spirit that comes with regeneration, which is wholly a work of God.

Galatians 5:22 makes it clear that faith is a fruit of the Spirit. Of course, this must mean believing the truth, the gospel, and it must also mean that all souls that possesses such faith are regenerate. Prior to regeneration it is not possible to have the fruit of the Spirit and as a result of regeneration its fruit is produced, among which is faith. It is typical of regenerates that they do have saving faith in Christ Jesus, whose person and work they have come to know.

Galatians 5:20 says that heresies is a work of the flesh. And in the next verse there's a warning that people who continue in such works "shall not inherit the Kingdom of God". This work of the flesh must of course mean believing lies and false gospels and it must also mean that all souls that do this wicked work of the flesh are unregenerate. It is typical of unregenerates that they will believe and teach blatant heresies, they will expound on matters they do not know or understand, and the reason for it is simply because they are not born again.

If any child of God should stray away however, he is called back to the fold. God will lose none of His (Matt.18:12-14).

Faith comes as the result of hearing the gospel from any Spirit-filled believer and hearing the word of God preached and taught by a pastor-teacher that has the Spirit. Faithfulness is the fruit of the Spirit that is born and exhibited in and by the believer toward God by keeping His word through a walk of faith. The unregenerate man hears the gospel through the word being preached, that word is taken by the Spirit to convict their heart and produces faith in their heart to believe. The unregenerate man must humble himself to receive the gospel when he is convicted by the Holy Spirit. Conviction gives the unregenerate man the ability to see his condition before a holy God and if that unregenerate man humbles himself to that truth, God will give him grace, forgive and cleanse him from sin and save his soul forever and regenerate him through the new birth.

 

[tribesman]

Faith comes as the result of hearing the gospel from any Spirit-filled believer and hearing the word of God preached and taught by a pastor-teacher that has the Spirit. Faithfulness is the fruit of the Spirit that is born and exhibited in and by the believer toward God by keeping His word through a walk of faith. The unregenerate man hears the gospel through the word being preached, that word is taken by the Spirit to convict their heart and produces faith in their heart to believe. The unregenerate man must humble himself to receive the gospel when he is convicted by the Holy Spirit. Conviction gives the unregenerate man the ability to see his condition before a holy God and if that unregenerate man humbles himself to that truth, God will give him grace, forgive and cleanse him from sin and save his soul forever and regenerate him through the new birth.

It seems like you believe that unregenerate man does something that results in regeneration, i. e. he uses his ability to believe and as a result of him believing he is regenerated. Is that correct?

My view is quite the opposite, that is, it is the Spirit of God who quickens natural man, without ANY of his preparation or "humbling" of self prior to God's reviving act, and as a result/fruit of God regenerating the natural man, he believes. He has no ability to exercise such faith as a natural man.

Faith is then instrumental in receiving God's saving grace, not meritorious. If indeed natural/unregenerate man could "humble" himself much enough to work up saving faith, then it would be merit, not a free gift, given at the will of God himself, that regenerated him.

Do you see this?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It seems like you believe that unregenerate man does something that results in regeneration, i. e. he uses his ability to believe and as a result of him believing he is regenerated. Is that correct?

My view is quite the opposite, that is, it is the Spirit of God who quickens natural man, without ANY of his preparation or "humbling" of self prior to God's reviving act, and as a result/fruit of God regenerating the natural man, he believes. He has no ability to exercise such faith as a natural man.

Faith is then instrumental in receiving God's saving grace, not meritorious. If indeed natural/unregenerate man could "humble" himself much enough to work up saving faith, then it would be merit, not a free gift, given at the will of God himself, that regenerated him.

Do you see this?

No I can't see this. I did not work to earn trust or faith in my wife. She worked to gain my trust in her.

Are you saying that a person can not see God love, their sin, and what God did for them and trust in that work? How could that be a work of unregenerate man? They did not do something to earn their own trust in God. God did all the work.

 

[tribesman]

No I can't see this. I did not work to earn trust or faith in my wife. She worked to gain my trust in her.

Are you saying that a person can not see God love, their sin, and what God did for them and trust in that work? How could that be a work of unregenerate man? They did not do something to earn their own trust in God. God did all the work.

God did all the work. Yes. That is exactly what I am saying. Sinners are dead in trespasses and sins, so they have no ability to respond to anything spiritual (of God). That's why God in His love and mercy quickens/regenerates them. As a result of this, they believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God did all the work. Yes. That is exactly what I am saying. Sinners are dead in trespasses and sins,

Yes they are. they are spiritually dead because of sin. Separated from God, unable to have any relationship wiith him.

so they have no ability to respond to anything spiritual (of God).

Why can't they? Why can't they see there sin? Paul says they have no excuse in romans 1. They know in their hearts they are sinners, because Gods law is written in their hearts. If they can know they are sinners. why can't they comprehend Gods love and the cross? There is nothing keeping them from knowing that.

That's why God in His love and mercy quickens/regenerates them

No one can be quickened or regenerated until after they are justified. Quickened or regeneration means to give life to that which was dead. Since we are dead due to the penalty of sin, We can not be made alive until that penalty is removed. Meaning one must be justified first. This can only come through Faith in Christs work of the gospel.

As a result of this, they believe.

This is backwards, As a result of faith they are justified. As a result of justification they are made alive in Christ (born again, quickened or regenerated to life however you want to say it)

 

[prophecyman]

No I can't see this. I did not work to earn trust or faith in my wife. She worked to gain my trust in her.

Are you saying that a person can not see God love, their sin, and what God did for them and trust in that work? How could that be a work of unregenerate man? They did not do something to earn their own trust in God. God did all the work.

OH LET US LABOR FOR THE MASTER FROM THE DAWN TIL SETTING SUN,

LET US TALK OF ALL HIS WONDROUS LOVE AND CARE...

THEN WHEN ALL OF LIFE IS OVER AND OUR WORK ON EARTH IS DONE, AND THE ROLL IS CALLED UP YOUNDER I'LL BE THERE!

 

[tribesman]

Yes they are. they are spiritually dead because of sin. Separated from God, unable to have any relationship wiith him.

Yes, they are unable to have a relationship with him. This means also unable to prepare for such a relationship or to please God/have saving faith in such a state.

Why can't they? Why can't they see there sin? Paul says they have no excuse in romans 1. They know in their hearts they are sinners, because Gods law is written in their hearts. If they can know they are sinners. why can't they comprehend Gods love and the cross? There is nothing keeping them from knowing that.

When they see their sin they see it because of the drawing of God (John 6:44), and because of the illumination of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8). They do not understand what their sin is and how God see their sin as natural men.

No one can be quickened or regenerated until after they are justified. Quickened or regeneration means to give life to that which was dead. Since we are dead due to the penalty of sin, We can not be made alive until that penalty is removed. Meaning one must be justified first. This can only come through Faith in Christs work of the gospel.

True, justification occurs at regeneration. As a fruit of this, the converted sinner believes.

This is backwards, As a result of faith they are justified. As a result of justification they are made alive in Christ (born again, quickened or regenerated to life however you want to say it)

No, it is not backwards. Scripture is clear that the new birth is wholly the work of God, at the will of God (John.1:13-14, Eph.1:1-14).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, they are unable to have a relationship with him. This means also unable to prepare for such a relationship or to please God/have saving faith in such a state.

says who? so god removed free will or the ability to have free will?? How can the HS convict of sin righteousness and judgment if we are unable to be convicted of such a thing?

When they see their sin they see it because of the drawing of God (John 6:44), and because of the illumination of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8). They do not understand what their sin is and how God see their sin as natural men.

Rom 1: 18: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Seems paul would disagree with you. They can not only know who God is, What is righteous requirements are, and that they are rightly judged. They can know what God did for them to save them. But they CHOSE NOT TO.

True, justification occurs at regeneration. As a fruit of this, the converted sinner believes.

Justification comes only by faith. It does not produce faith.

No, it is not backwards. Scripture is clear that the new birth is wholly the work of God, at the will of God (John.1:13-14, Eph.1:1-14).

Amen. And what does eph 1: 13 14 say:

After you hear the word of truth, After you believed. you were saved. Not the other way around. Belief comes first. then justification follows.

It is the work of God which saves us, your right. But we must trust that work, and the words of the gospel for that saving to take place. A lack of trust will condemn us.

 

[tribesman]

says who? so god removed free will or the ability to have free will?? How can the HS convict of sin righteousness and judgment if we are unable to be convicted of such a thing?

I have to ask you who says there is a free will? I just stated in my last post how the Holy Ghost convicts sinners.

God says that sinners are dead in their trespasses and sins. What is a dead man able to do? Spiritually speaking, nothing good. That's why God must intervene and raise him from the dead.

Eph.2

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved )

Seems paul would disagree with you. They can not only know who God is, What is righteous requirements are, and that they are rightly judged. They can know what God did for them to save them. But they CHOSE NOT TO.

Do you believe that the crowd in Romans 1:18-32 were ever saved?

Justification comes only by faith. It does not produce faith.

I agree that justification comes by faith. However, I believe that this faith comes as a result of regeneration. A natural man cannot exercise such a faith, but a regenerate man will 1Cor.2:12-15.

Amen. And what does eph 1: 13 14 say:

After you hear the word of truth, After you believed. you were saved. Not the other way around. Belief comes first. then justification follows.

It is the work of God which saves us, your right. But we must trust that work, and the words of the gospel for that saving to take place. A lack of trust will condemn us.

This trust comes from us being quickened, regenerated.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have to ask you who says there is a free will? I just stated in my last post how the Holy Ghost convicts sinners.

Who says there is not a free will? If we are saved by faith. and condemned by lack of faith. Logic states there must be free will to chose to accept or reject.

Yes the HS convicts sinners. It says he convicts the world. If one does not have free will, thay have no chance to accept the HS's conviction or reject it.

God says that sinners are dead in their trespasses and sins. What is a dead man able to do?

Well if they are physically dead it is too late. But just like man through free will chose to sin to cause spiritual death. Man also must make a free will decision to chose to have faith in Christ to be made alive.

Do you believe that the crowd in Romans 1:18-32 were ever saved?

I don't understand why this would matter. It states they KNEW GOD, Chose to reject God. and will not have an excuse because of this knowledge. These same people were spiritual dead when they had this knowledge.

I agree that justification comes by faith. However, I believe that this faith comes a result of regeneration. A natural man cannot exercise such a faith, but a regenerate man will.

I can't agree. New birth comes from justification. not the opposite way around. A man can not be born again who is still dead in sin. A man is dead in sin UNTIL justification takes place. thus regeneration can not possibly occur until after justification.

This trust comes from us being quickened, regenerated.

I can't Agree because that would say justification comes after one is born again, which is impossible. because until justification takes place. One remains dead in sin.

What your saying is that one is born again, forgiven of all sin (justified) before they even have faith, which is not according to scripture. we are justified through faith, not before it.

 

[tribesman]

Who says there is not a free will? If we are saved by faith. and condemned by lack of faith. Logic states there must be free will to chose to accept or reject.

Well, do you answer a question with a question? The issue of free will has been debated before here at CC, I am positive that there is no free will in spiritual matters for the unregenerate man.

Faith is not a work or a merit, it is a gift of God. The gospel can be rejected by natural man, but not positively received by him prior to God having quickened him. Phil. 2:13.

Yes the HS convicts sinners. It says he convicts the world. If one does not have free will, thay have no chance to accept the HS's conviction or reject it.

I edited my latest post, post #10, adding the scripture 1Cor.2:12-15. That scripture tells you that natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. It also says that to the contrary the spiritual man does receive it.

1Cor.2


[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Well if they are physically dead it is too late. But just like man through free will chose to sin to cause spiritual death. Man also must make a free will decision to chose to have faith in Christ to be made alive.

That is the arminian take of this issue. There are several scriptures that says that it is God who does the choosing. Natural man has no ability or will to accept/receive anything from God.

I don't understand why this would matter. It states they KNEW GOD, Chose to reject God. and will not have an excuse because of this knowledge. These same people were spiritual dead when they had this knowledge.

That's what I was aiming at, there may be some knowledge there, even among the natural man, but it is another thing entirely to receive the gospel.

I can't agree. New birth comes from justification. not the opposite way around. A man can not be born again who is still dead in sin. A man is dead in sin UNTIL justification takes place. thus regeneration can not possibly occur until after justification.

And I cannot agree that the new birth comes as a result of natural man using some "ability" to have saving faith and thus deciding to become born again. Where is there a scripture for this? Where in creation can a creature exercise will-power for his own birth?

I can't Agree because that would say justification comes after one is born again, which is impossible. because until justification takes place. One remains dead in sin.

I have not said that justification comes after regeneration.

What your saying is that one is born again, forgiven of all sin (justified) before they even have faith, which is not according to scripture. we are justified through faith, not before it.

I am not trying to displa an exact time frame of these events, but I do see evidence in scripture that regeneration proceeds faith. That it is a spiritual, and not a natural, man who positively responds to the calling. A sign that one is regenerate is that one believes the gospel.

 

[shroom2]

Tribesman, you sound like Forest.

We are saved at the moment we choose to believe. God does not "regenerate" a man first, then he believes. He believes first. He believes unto salvation.

Rom 1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Every man has free will, and can decide what he wants to believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, do you answer a question with a question? The issue of free will has been debated before here at CC, I am positive that there is no free will in spiritual matters for the unregenerate man.

I do not see how you can believe that. And I shudder to think of what kind of God would make it that way.

Imagine if a father had two children. And wanted to give all he had to only one kid. But he chose randomly only one kid based on nothing. Of course the one he gave it to had faith in him after this. the one he did not give it to had no faith. only hate. What kind of father would this be?

No, under the same situation. we have two kids who hate their father, and want nothing to do with him. and their relationship is dead. But he has this gift to offer to restore their fellowship. he offers to both kids. One decides to trust him. one does not. The one who chose to trust him gets his blessings and all he has to offer. the one who does not gets nothing. Is this a Father we would chose to love?

Faith is not a work or a merit, it is a gift of God. The gospel can be rejected by natural man, but not positively received by him prior to God having quickened him. Phil. 2:13

.

Then no one will go to hell. becaue no one who rejected God by not having faith were given any opportunity or the ability to chose God. Thus they could never be condemned.

I edited my latest post, post #10, adding the scripture 1Cor.2:12-15. That scripture tells you that natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. It also says that to the contrary the spiritual man does receive it.

You stated the HS convicts men did you not? Scripture states he convicts not just the elect, but the WORLD. even saying he convicts them of judgment because they have been judged.

A spiritual man understands the advanced doctrines of God because they have the spirit. Can not the HS during his conviction act as a spirit guide to help them understand the Gospel? why do you want to remove power From God and say he is incapable of doing this very thing. Thus man is judged or condemned based on his chose to recieve or reject the gift of God.

That is the arminian take of this issue. There are several scriptures that says that it is God who does the choosing. Natural man has no ability or will to accept/receive anything from God.

Scripture states HOW God does the choosing. By foreknowledge. Natural man, if convicted by the HS can and do accept the gospel (although they can not understand anything else from God) That is why no man will have an excuse.

That's what I was aiming at, there may be some knowledge there, even among the natural man, but it is another thing entirely to receive the gospel.

Man has to be given the ability to recieve or reject. or man has an excuse. Romans 1 says they will have no excuse. because they had the knowledge, but chose to reject it.

And I cannot agree that the new birth comes as a result of natural man using some "ability" to have saving faith and thus deciding to become born again. Where is there a scripture for this? Where in creation can a creature exercise will-power for his own birth?

For by Grace we are SAVED through FAITH.

Salvation only comes through faith. faith does not come through salvation

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

This power is only given to those who believe. meaning they must believe or it has no power.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Righteousness comes only to those who believe, not before. but after.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

faith does not come by being regenerated. it comes by hearing the word of God (the gospel)

i could go on and on, But I hope you see the picture here

I have not said that justification comes after regeneration.

then when does it come? Justification can only come by faith. if it does not come after, does it come before?? are you changing your mind? And don't say it comes at the same time, this is impossible. One must hear and understand the gospel before they can have faith. If they can not understand until regeneration, their must be a time allowed for them to hear, and understand and chose to believe.

I am not trying to displa an exact time frame of these events, but I do see evidence in scripture that regeneration proceeds faith. That it is a spiritual, and not a natural, man who positively responds to the calling. A sign that one is regenerate is that one believes the gospel.

Sorry. I can not worship a God who choses not to allow hundreds of millions of people the chance to accept them, and send them to eternal damnation based on Gods refusal to let them hear, understand and chose to follow him or reject him. This is not the God of the bible.

 

[tribesman]

shroom2, where Forest and I mainly disagree is when justification occurs. He says it occured at the cross, while I say it occurs when we believe.

However, this believing I do not see as the result of natural man using some "ability" to surrender to God. Much of the reformed tradition holds to the view that regeneration preceeds faith.

 

[tribesman]

I do not see how you can believe that. And I shudder to think of what kind of God would make it that way.

You obviously believe in free will for natural man. Where are scriptures that proves your view? I have proven that idea several times, it has all fall short in the light of the totality of scripture.

Imagine if a father had two children. And wanted to give all he had to only one kid. But he chose randomly only one kid based on nothing. Of course the one he gave it to had faith in him after this. the one he did not give it to had no faith. only hate. What kind of father would this be?

No, under the same situation. we have two kids who hate their father, and want nothing to do with him. and their relationship is dead. But he has this gift to offer to restore their fellowship. he offers to both kids. One decides to trust him. one does not. The one who chose to trust him gets his blessings and all he has to offer. the one who does not gets nothing. Is this a Father we would chose to love?

Maybe you are misunderstanding something here?.Not all men are the children of God.

Then no one will go to hell. becaue no one who rejected God by not having faith were given any opportunity or the ability to chose God. Thus they could never be condemned.

No. Everyone is still responsible for their actions. People will go to hell because of unbelief and rejection of Christ. They have themselves only to blame for that.

You stated the HS convicts men did you not? Scripture states he convicts not just the elect, but the WORLD. even saying he convicts them of judgment because they have been judged

We are not discussing here how the word world may be understood and interpreted in various contexts. But, yes, the Holy Spirit do convict sinners, apart from such conviction the sinner will not understand what sin is and how God looks upon it.

A spiritual man understands the advanced doctrines of God because they have the spirit. Can not the HS during his conviction act as a spirit guide to help them understand the Gospel? why do you want to remove power From God and say he is incapable of doing this very thing. Thus man is judged or condemned based on his chose to recieve or reject the gift of God.

You add here "the advanced doctrines of God". This is not found in the text that I quoted, there it is written, quite categorically, that "natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God", we cannot put in a notion that natural man understand some things of the Spirit of God, or one single thing of the Sprit of God. And then it's followed up by:: "for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned". So, he can not know them, he is unable to know them. Why? Because he's a natural, unregenerate man. That's what this scripture says. I'll go with that. This modernist view of that there be "carnal christians" have enough flaws to be spent time on here. And I am certainly not the one who remove any power from God to do anything, on the contrary I am affirming that it is God, and Him alone, who does all the work at hand here, not man to any extent. It is you who put everything here in the hands of the almighty free will of natural man. It may sound correct to your "logic", but scriptural it is not.

Scripture states HOW God does the choosing. By foreknowledge. Natural man, if convicted by the HS can and do accept the gospel (although they can not understand anything else from God) That is why no man will have an excuse.

In Romans 8 and 9 the word predestination is used. It clearly goes beyong foreseeing something. No man has an excuse for their unbelief, but no man can take or get any credit for their belief.

Man has to be given the ability to recieve or reject. or man has an excuse. Romans 1 says they will have no excuse. because they had the knowledge, but chose to reject it.

The crowd in Romans 1 is not the type and example of all men. There's nothing in Romans 1 that says that these people ever had saving knowledge about Christ. They may have had natural knowledge about that there is a God, and that there is an order of creation etc, but it should not be confused with the knowledge that pertains to salvation. But, yes, they used their free will to reject God, that does not mean that had the ability to positively accept Him.

then when does it come? Justification can only come by faith. if it does not come after, does it come before?? are you changing your mind? And don't say it comes at the same time, this is impossible. One must hear and understand the gospel before they can have faith. If they can not understand until regeneration, their must be a time allowed for them to hear, and understand and chose to believe.

Sorry, misunderstanding by me in my latest post here, I meant to say quite the opposite. I believe that regeneration and justification are intertwined. Yet, as said, I do not speculate about the exact time frame of the events pertaining to ordo salutis. Regeneration would naturally preceed justification though, however it would be hard to argue that there is a "time" lapse between these two, as they are inseparable. The point is still that if faith is a gift of the Spirit, then it stands to reason that only regenerate persons have this, as only regenerate persons have the fruit of the Spirit. Thus, only regenerated persons believes.

We have different perspectives in approaching this issue,. I guess you are coming from SBC, free will, first or fundamental baptist or similar background? My take is the protestant lutheran/reformed. So we do have different views on man. Am I right when I guess that you would say that infants or small babies cannot understand the gospel and therefore cannot receive it?

Sorry. I can not worship a God who choses not to allow hundreds of millions of people the chance to accept them, and send them to eternal damnation based on Gods refusal to let them hear, understand and chose to follow him or reject him. This is not the God of the bible.

I hope you can consider and ponder these things a little closer before making too much of wrong conclusions. Let me ask you this: do you think that every person who ever lived on this earth throughout all time and in all locations, each and everyone had a "chance" to repent and believe, that each and every one of them heard the gospel, and that God manifested Himself to each and every one of them? If this was not the case, was then God unfair, unjust and unrighteos by not doing this for them? Does God owe man something, or anything at all?

 

[Crossfire]

shroom2, where Forest and I mainly disagree is when justification occurs. He says it occured at the cross, while I say it occurs when we believe.

However, this believing I do not see as the result of natural man using some "ability" to surrender to God. Much of the reformed tradition holds to the view that regeneration preceeds faith.

You should try reading Andrew Murray sometime. A true man of God without a doubt and a Calvinist. He wrote a book entitled 'Absolute Surrender' that you should read. If interested, you should be able to find the .pdf file for free online, if not I would be more than happy to email you a copy.

 

[shroom2]

shroom2, where Forest and I mainly disagree is when justification occurs. He says it occured at the cross, while I say it occurs when we believe.

However, this believing I do not see as the result of natural man using some "ability" to surrender to God.

Every man who hears has the ability to believe what he hears.

Much of the reformed tradition holds to the view that regeneration preceeds faith.

They are wrong. The bible plainly states we are born again after we believe.

Calvinism is false doctrine. God loves all men and wants them all to believe and be saved. It's every man's free will choice.

 

[tribesman]

Every man who hears has the ability to believe what he hears.

What would you say about these scriptures?

John 10

[11] I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

[14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
[15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

[26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

They are wrong. The bible plainly states we are born again after we believe.

Nowhere does the Bible state such a thing. And where in creation does a creature have the will power to be born into something of his own choice?

The Bible says regeneration is the result of God's will

John 1

[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Calvinism is false doctrine. God loves all men and wants them all to believe and be saved. It's every man's free will choice.

Arminanism and arianism are false doctrines. Both are advocates of work righteousness. Arianism also denies the God-Man mediation of Christ, as it denies His deity.

 

[tribesman]

You should try reading Andrew Murray sometime. A true man of God without a doubt and a Calvinist. He wrote a book entitled 'Absolute Surrender' that you should read. If interested, you should be able to find the .pdf file for free online, if not I would be more than happy to email you a copy.

Haven't read that much of Andrew Murray, more from Iain and John with same surname (not related). I think Andrew struggled with the extent of the atonement and the issue of self. He was inspired by the methodist influenced "mystic" William Law, which is quite graphic. I know that people like Watchman Nee and his successor (some of whose teachings I consider bordering on the cultic) were quite influenced by Andrew. The "mystical" approach to scripture appealed to me somewhat earlier, not that much now. I'd look for the work you mentioned tho, and have a look at it too. I can only say now that if he believed that natural man could surrender to God, then I do not agree with it, as it is unscriptural.