Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, heresy is a work of the flesh (Gal.5)

Abiding · Jan 21, 2012

I dont think Andrew Murray or William Law spent much of their time appealing to the natural man.
Question? what application is there in splitting hairs over the actual mechanics of regeneration?
Can you give a brief summary of its implications? Does it effect the way we preach the gospel?
Or some other kingdom duty? Or have a impact in our theology that guides our lives? I understand
its bound to be important seeing so much dialogue over it....but at the moment it alludes me. ty

tribesman · Jan 21, 2012

Abiding said:

I have browsed through said book by A Murray now, might be back with a comment on it. The intention with the OP was to highlight faith as a fruit of the Spirit. Given that only regenates can have such fruit, it will obstruct any occasion to boast in self for those that will say that saving faith can be had, at will, by carnal, natural and unregenerate men. This might not so much effect our way of preaching the gospel per se. After all the call to repent and believe does not imply any ability among the hearer, but there's a difference as wide as east is from the west to believe that natural man has the ability to positively respond to the gospel and as a result of this become regenerated than to believe that natural man is dead in trespasses and sins, not able to receive things of the Spirit of God, which are foolishness to him. It is being said then that the man who positively responds to the gospel call is the new man. And the gospel is the good news about salvation conditioned on the work and person of Jesus Christ alone.

shroom2 · Jan 21, 2012

tribesman said:

Those verses do not say that the sheep are predetermined by God. A sheep is any person who chooses to follow.

Rom 10:9, Eph 1:13, Rom 10:13

Men do not save themselves. God saves them when they choose to believe.

God's will is for all men to be saved. But He requires them to believe.

Salvation is by grace through faith, not works.

Neither are true. "God-man" is not scriptural.

1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Abiding · Jan 21, 2012

tribesman said:

Oh, well of coarse natural man has no saving faith else he could choose Christ, which Jesus said couldnt
happen. Thats why it is said we are given a measure of faith. And Romans 5 says this faith gives us access
to grace. Grace being the divine influence that saves us by empowering us to believe the gospel.

Im hearing this arguement alot and see it wont go away. What i see the most is an emotional fight it
seems to give man a so called free will. And God on the sidelines spending most of His time making sure
He is keeping up with His debt towards man.

So if your saying that a man is regenerated before he receives the measure of faith that gives him access
to the grace that saves him, then i find that hard to understand and seems to not line up with scripture as
i understand it. But if your point is that man in his natural state cannot receive the gospel nor repent alone
without divine intervention, well yes of coarse, thats what the bible teaches. Salvation is of the Lord! All of it.

shroom2 · Jan 21, 2012

Abiding said:

The bible teaches that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Any man can choose to seek God. God does not "make" or "cause" a person to believe, each man chooses of his own free will.

Red33 · Jan 21, 2012

shroom2 said:

There is so much scriptural evidence that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and the Son of Man, making him the God-man in (Phil 2:7,8, Heb 1:3, Mt 9:6, 14:33, 61,62, John 1:1,14,34, 12:34, Acts 7:56, Rev 1:13, 1Tim 3:16), just to mention a few. When He became a man He was crucified to satisfy the justice of God as the Son of God and He put away the sins of man (2Cor 5:21) as the Son of man. Jesus is the Son of God in relationship to the Father and the Son of man in relationship to man. he is the mediator between God and man (1Tim 2:5) and is our advocate before the Father (1Jn 2:1). If any believer does not recognize Christ as the God-man, meaning that as God He was fully a man and as a man He was fully God, then they do not believe that God was manifest in the flesh as the Son of God and the Son of man.

Abiding · Jan 21, 2012

shroom2 said:

Yes the bible does teach that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. But what are the
mechanics of it. It teaches that also.

Romans says noone seeks after God. Right? Romans 3:11

From your first biblical statement on is not from the bible...u know that. My comment would be that
to make it biblical. The reason that any man can choose is because every man will be empowered
by God to choose as it tells throughout scripture. My favorite is the parable of the sower and the seed.
We are to pray that God will permit people repentance to be taken from the snare of the devil who
takes them captive when he wills. Even repentance is brought about by grace(divine influence).

So yes God "causes" a believer to believe. If not the person is doomed in his natural state. Plenty of
biblical evidence for that. But is "make" the same as "cause" ? well i dont think so. The man must
receive the gift by faith through grace....all of which is given to him supernaturally by God.

shroom2 · Jan 21, 2012

Abiding said:

When the man chooses to believe.

And grace is not "divine influence". It is divine favor. It's purely by the grace of God that salvation through Christ is available to any man who simply believes on him.

Men come to God freely by their own will. God has given man genuine free will.

I am not saying God does not work in mens hearts. He does. But the "cause" of a man choosing to believe is within himself. It's his decision.

Abiding · Jan 21, 2012

shroom2 said:

Grace is the word charis: divine influence on the heart. Of coarse thats divine favor. But to rob its actual intended
meaning isnt right. Go look it up. Yes its purely by the grace(actually its more accurate to say mercy)of God to
offer man salvation. But let God through His word teach how that operates.

I think i see your fuss is about mans obligation to choose when God provides the necessary power for him to do so....but i havnt even mentioned that aspect. Except that he would not be able to choose if God didnt empower him to do so...which He will.

2knowhim · Jan 21, 2012

KJV
Isa 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

LITV
Isa 65:1 I have been sought, not by those who asked. I have been found, not by those who sought Me. To a nation not calling on My name, I said, Behold Me! Behold Me!

YLT
Isa 65:1 I have been inquired of by those who asked not, I have been found by those who sought Me not, I have said, `Behold Me, behold Me,' Unto a nation not calling in My name.

JPS
Isa 65:1 I gave access to them that asked not for Me, I was at hand to them that sought Me not; I said: 'Behold Me, behold Me', unto a nation that was not called by My name.

tribesman · Jan 21, 2012

Abiding said:

My point is what the Bible teaches; salvation is of the Lord, and that means that all conditions/requirements for same are fulfilled in the person and work of Christ alone. Faith can then not be a condition for salvation, it will be the instrument through which salvation is received.

As said earlier in this thread, I'm not into going to extremes about the ordo salutis, but I cannot possibly see how an unregenerate, natural man can, at his own "free will", work up a "faith" that would merit him to become born again. If we assume that coming to faith is intertwined with regeneration and both occur simultaneously then really it must be asked what role natural man may have in it.

There might also be some who question whether there is a time lapse between regeneration and faith, or belief of the gospel. I don't see such.

shroom2 · Jan 21, 2012

Abiding said:

God has already "empowered" every man to choose. It's called free will.

And He wishes all would choose to believe, and receive salvation.

tribesman · Jan 22, 2012

tribesman said:

What you are saying is that if someone want to become a sheep, he chooses to become one? You do give much power in the hands of man. I'd say that a sheep follows his shepherd because it is his nature to do so. He follows because he is a sheep, not to become a sheep. Did you ever think more closely about what makes a sheep a sheep? Why a sheep has certain characteristics compared to goats, dogs and hogs? It's a matter of nature, where the creature has very little say or power, if any. The creation and its order is there to teach us something.

shroom2 said:

Rom.10:9 and 13 are addressed to israelites "to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" (Rom.9:4) and it does not imply any ability for anyone to positively do what is asked for. It may also well be argued that Rom.10:9 is aimed at believers. Eph.1:13 should be read in its context, read the whole chapter and you will see how predestination is being taught throughout it. These scriptures are not supportive of general free-willism.

shroom2 said:

So, salvation is conditioned on the work of man? On his choosing to believe?

shroom2 said:

I'd say that all such requirements are already met in Christ Jesus. Eph.1:1-11.

Would you say that it is God's will to save the crowd spoken of in Rom.1:18-32, souls that he gave up to a reprobate mind? Or those that He sent strong delusion that they might believe the lie and be damned (2Thess.2:3-12)? It was God's will to save these? Or Pharao, whose heart God hardened? Or those people that He ordered the israelites to destroy? God wanted to save these people?

shroom2 said:

Good if you believe so. But you will say at the same time that salvation is conditioned on man believing, which is a requirement that God has on man. So, then it is a work after all?

shroom2 said:

Red33 has already given you a good reply on this one in post#26.

tribesman · Jan 22, 2012

Regeneration Precedes Faith

by R. C. Sproul

One of the most dramatic moments in my life for the shaping of my theology took place in a seminary classroom. One of my professors went to the blackboard and wrote these words in bold letters: "Regeneration Precedes Faith."

These words were a shock to my system. I had entered seminary believing that the key work of man to effect rebirth was faith. I thought that we first had to believe in Christ in order to be born again. I use the words in order here for a reason. I was thinking in terms of steps that must be taken in a certain sequence. I had put faith at the beginning. The order looked something like this:

"Faith - rebirth -justification."

I hadn’t thought that matter through very carefully. Nor had I listened carefully to Jesus’ words to Nicodemus. I assumed that even though I was a sinner, a person born of the flesh and living in the flesh, I still had a little island of righteousness, a tiny deposit of spiritual power left within my soul to enable me to respond to the Gospel on my own. Perhaps I had been confused by the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Rome, and many other branches of Christendom, had taught that regeneration is gracious; it cannot happen apart from the help of God.

No man has the power to raise himself from spiritual death. Divine assistance is necessary. This grace, according to Rome, comes in the form of what is called prevenient grace. "Prevenient" means that which comes from something else. Rome adds to this prevenient grace the requirement that we must "cooperate with it and assent to it" before it can take hold in our hearts.

This concept of cooperation is at best a half-truth. Yes, the faith we exercise is our faith. God does not do the believing for us. When I respond to Christ, it is my response, my faith, my trust that is being exercised. The issue, however, goes deeper. The question still remains: "Do I cooperate with God's grace before I am born again, or does the cooperation occur after?" Another way of asking this question is to ask if regeneration is monergistic or synergistic. Is it operative or cooperative? Is it effectual or dependent? Some of these words are theological terms that require further explanation.

A monergistic work is a work produced singly, by one person. The prefix mono means one. The word erg refers to a unit of work. Words like energy are built upon this root. A synergistic work is one that involves cooperation between two or more persons or things. The prefix syn means "together with." I labor this distinction for a reason. The debate between Rome and Luther hung on this single point. At issue was this: Is regeneration a monergistic work of God or a synergistic work that requires cooperation between man and God? When my professor wrote "Regeneration precedes faith" on the blackboard, he was clearly siding with the monergistic answer. After a person is regenerated, that person cooperates by exercising faith and trust. But the first step is the work of God and of God alone.

The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead.

When I began to wrestle with the Professor's argument, I was surprised to learn that his strange-sounding teaching was not novel. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield - even the great medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas taught this doctrine. Thomas Aquinas is the Doctor Angelicus of the Roman Catholic Church. For centuries his theological teaching was accepted as official dogma by most Catholics. So he was the last person I expected to hold such a view of regeneration. Yet Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace. Aquinas spoke of prevenient grace, but he spoke of a grace that comes before faith, which is regeneration.

These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.

This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to giants of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself.

(Excerpt from the book, The Mystery of the Holy Spirit, by R.C. Sproul, Christian Focus).

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html <-link

Abiding · Jan 22, 2012

shroom2 said:

why not just for fun....use scripture to make a point?

shroom2 · Jan 22, 2012

Abiding said:

Just for fun, here's a few:

John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 2:
37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1 Tim 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Deut 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

...I realize Calvinists think these verses don't mean what they say.

Abiding · Jan 22, 2012

shroom2 said:

Just for fun, here's a few:

John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 2:
37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1 Tim 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Deut 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

...I realize Calvinists think these verses don't mean what they say.

Are you implying im a calvinist, or are you just jabbing.
Whichever...yes those are very good scriptures and no doubt true.
It seems to me we are talking about the mechanics of what you have
provided, not whether what you provided is true or not. My request was
for you to provide scripture for the spin you put on the truth not the truth
itself.

shroom2 · Jan 22, 2012

Abiding said:

Are you implying im a calvinist, or are you just jabbing.
Whichever...yes those are very good scriptures and no doubt true.
It seems to me we are talking about the mechanics of what you have
provided, not whether what you provided is true or not. My request was
for you to provide scripture for the spin you put on the truth not the truth
itself.

What "spin" do you think I put on the truth?

Abiding · Jan 22, 2012

shroom2 said:

God has already "empowered" every man to choose. It's called free will. <----------right there

The bible teaches that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Any man can choose to seek God. <-----------and right there
God does not "make" or "cause" a person to believe, each man chooses of his own free will.,---------------------------------------------------and right there (i just got here there may be
more)

2knowhim · Jan 22, 2012

Abiding said:

I just came back on and saw this and it made me laugh

maybe you can get through to him, no one else can.

Blessings

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, heresy is a work of the flesh (Gal.5)

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