Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, heresy is a work of the flesh (Gal.5)

[shroom2]

God has already "empowered" every man to choose. It's called free will. <----------right there

The bible teaches that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Any man can choose to seek God. <-----------and right there
God does not "make" or "cause" a person to believe, each man chooses of his own free will.,---------------------------------------------------and right there (i just got here there may be
more)

The list of scripture I posted above, which you agreed with, prove my statements.

If God "caused" a man to believe, what's the point of having a bible? We would all do what He "caused" us to do anyway.

I think many people are afraid of coming to the realization that God actually gave them free will. It makes people responsible for their lives.

 

[shroom2]

I just came back on and saw this and it made me laugh
maybe you can get through to him, no one else can.

Blessings

Get through to me how? That "God is in control of everything that happens"? That we're all pawns on God's chessboard, destined to do what He has determined we will do? That is not the God of the bible.

Someday maybe it'll get through to you that NOT everyone will be saved. Only those who choose to believe.

God through His grace, love, and mercy has provided through Christ the means of salvation to any man who wants it. Unfortunately, not all do.

 

[2knowhim]

Get through to me how? That "God is in control of everything that happens"? That we're all pawns on God's chessboard, destined to do what He has determined we will do? That is not the God of the bible.

Someday maybe it'll get through to you that NOT everyone will be saved. Only those who choose to believe.

God through His grace, love, and mercy has provided through Christ the means of salvation to any man who wants it. Unfortunately, not all do.

Sorry Shroom, that's just not how it works, it still takes The Holy Spirit to reveal
all of that to the individual.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

 

[tribesman]

Sorry Shroom, that's just not how it works, it still takes The Holy Spirit to reveal all of that to the individual...

It's interesting to see that the scriptures that shroom gave in most cases are addressed to the covenant people of God or to people who already are regenerate. If we are to give the unregenerate the same qualities and characteristics as the regenerate we are mistaken, for God is not asking anything from the heathen in regards to "choose ye this day whom you will serve" or "this do and thou shalt live". We can not read the Bible with the idea that it in every case is addressing every people and person on earth without making gross errors.

 

[2knowhim]

It's interesting to see that the scriptures that shroom gave in most cases are addressed to the covenant people of God or to people who already are regenerate. If we are to give the unregenerate the same qualities and characteristics as the regenerate we are mistaken, for God is not asking anything from the heathen in regards to "choose ye this day whom you will serve" or "this do and thou shalt live". We can not read the Bible with the idea that it in every case is addressing every people and person on earth without making gross errors.

Humm, I'm not sure how your using the word "heathen" if it's those who have not
been moved upon by the Holy Spirit,.... or Nations.
But with that being said, I do agree, that God does not expect anything from anyone
If He has not given them the ability to follow Him.

That would be like asking a blind man to follow the Light.

Now,.....Here's the question, if Christ paid for the sin of the whole world, and those
that have not been quickened die without receiving God's quickening Spirit,
What happens to that one? Are they at fault? Since it was never given to them?


They would have died in their sins, but..............
Is he lost for all eternity? And are we so sure that, that spirit could not receive
salvation apart from the body? (Still having to receive through Christ, I not saying
there is another Way,) but would it be impossible, since The Lord Himself says,
Is my hand to short that I cannot save to the Uttermost?

Blessings

 

[Red33]

My point is what the Bible teaches; salvation is of the Lord, and that means that all conditions/requirements for same are fulfilled in the person and work of Christ alone. Faith can then not be a condition for salvation, it will be the instrument through which salvation is received.

As said earlier in this thread, I'm not into going to extremes about the ordo salutis, but I cannot possibly see how an unregenerate, natural man can, at his own "free will", work up a "faith" that would merit him to become born again. If we assume that coming to faith is intertwined with regeneration and both occur simultaneously then really it must be asked what role natural man may have in it.

There might also be some who question whether there is a time lapse between regeneration and faith, or belief of the gospel. I don't see such.

Faith is not something that the unregenerate man musters up in and of himself, faith comes to him by hearing the word of the gospel. The light of the glorious gospel shines unto him as an unregenerate man who is dead in trespasses and sins. He is the object of that light. The light came to him, he did not go to the light, faith came to him through the light of the gospel. He has the capacity to receive it or reject it, believe it or remain in unbelief, agree or disagree, meaning that his volition, that was dead and in darkness because of sin, has had light shine unto it and faith granted to it so that the unregenerate man can humble himself in that darkened state that has been enlightened through the gospel and believe unto the righteousness of God through Christ.

This is all part of God drawing the unregenerate man unto Himself through His goodness and loving kindness. The decision made by man, once that light has shined unto him, can not be made for him, he must make it as an individual soul that God is calling through the gospel of His Son. That is the 'whosoever believeth in Him'. In that God is not willing that any should perish, He has made the cross and the gospel available to 'ALL', that all should come to repentance. God calls and the unregenerate man must response and believe to have everlasting life and come to that place of repentance that the goodness of God has lead him to. Through that goodness, God is able to turn him as an unregenerate man that is relying upon the living God to give him life through death.

 

[2knowhim]

Hi Red,

I'm not trying to be difficult here just trying to see where your coming from.
We quote this scripture all the time, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God"
So what was the initiation for the person? Did they just decide one day to open the bible and
start reading, or did they just decide one day to go to church and here it?
please don't think I'm trying to argue, I just want to discuss this because I think its really
a big part of our understanding of God.

There still, (to me) seems that there had to be a motivation given to the person, or at least
be prepared to receive the Light of the Gospel, or there just words of a man, or words in a
book, etc.... I have heard the Gospel all my life, was raise hearing the word in church from
a child, but did'nt receive anything from it until much later on in life.

And I don't know if this means anything to anyone, but in this scripture this word, "word" is not Logos,
it's Rhema, I'm just pointing it out for consideration.

Blessings

 

[Grandpa]

The list of scripture I posted above, which you agreed with, prove my statements.

If God "caused" a man to believe, what's the point of having a bible? We would all do what He "caused" us to do anyway.

I think many people are afraid of coming to the realization that God actually gave them free will. It makes people responsible for their lives.

If the enemy can a cause a man to disbelieve, why is it so hard to come to the conclusion that God can cause a man to believe?

There are so many competing views and competing suggestions, how could a man come to the view that God is who He says He is, without His Help?

The gap is too wide, the chasm is too deep for man to overcome by himself. The more you understand what God has done for us the more you will realize the Goodness of God and our innate lack.

There are none that are righteous, no not one.
There is only one that is Good, God.

Our sinfulness is so deep that it is blinding. Only the Light can show us how bad it is.

 

[Abiding]

If the bible tells a truth in one section, and a requirement of the same truth in another. Both have to be considered.
If noone seeks after God and noone understands (Romans 3:11-12) And a natural man cannot receive the things of God
because they are foolish to him (1 cor 2:14) ....then why or how could anyone say theres a free will in man to choose???

If Jesus prayed in John 17 and elsewhere in the scriptures including On the Cross for divine intervention, why is it so hard
to accept that man alone cannot come to God on his own without Gods help?

Point being is to see a verse that says if a man calls on the name of the Lord and will be saved, does not mean that
it would negate the mechanics of all that is required and has been told elsewhere in scripture where the Spirit of God
Is involved in the entire process.

Well also i think its silly to try to prove this to anyone. Since not one Christian can grow alone, keep himself in the faith,
conform himself into Christs image, overcome sin alone, really not one thing can he do alone(John 15:5) after he is regenerated.
And thinks a dead man can choose what he is dead to? To me thats ignoring scripture.

 

[Red33]

Hi Red,

I'm not trying to be difficult here just trying to see where your coming from.
We quote this scripture all the time, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God"
So what was the initiation for the person? Did they just decide one day to open the bible and
start reading, or did they just decide one day to go to church and here it?
please don't think I'm trying to argue, I just want to discuss this because I think its really
a big part of our understanding of God.

There still, (to me) seems that there had to be a motivation given to the person, or at least
be prepared to receive the Light of the Gospel, or there just words of a man, or words in a
book, etc.... I have heard the Gospel all my life, was raise hearing the word in church from
a child, but did'nt receive anything from it until much later on in life.

And I don't know if this means anything to anyone, but in this scripture this word, "word" is not Logos,
it's Rhema, I'm just pointing it out for consideration.

Blessings

There's nothing wrong with asking these questions. Most of the time any man that lives in unbelief and is unsaved never would make a decision to come to the light unless God is drawing him through circumstances and situations where he would cry out to God being helpless and without hope. That is a good place to be in to be able to receive from God, but it is not that way in all cases. I know a very successful man that had every thing going for him and had no need for God. One day he received a gospel tract that told him that if he didn't receive Christ that he would go to hell. It made him angry so much so, that he was going to prove that he did not need God and that the Bible was nothing but a bunch of trash. In the midst of his determination to prove the many errors of prophecy in the scriptures, the Holy Spirit ministered to him through the words of Christ in (Jn 14:28,29) and began to break him down and teach him...

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

The Holy Spirit ministered these verses to this man that was a unitarian and in his mind and heart he thought that what Christ was saying in (v.29) was fair. He went into every prophecy and claim of the scriptures that was made from (Gen 1). He found that God claimed to have made all things in heaven and earth in (6) days and on the (7th) day He rested. He was living in a (7) day week so it made what God had said over (4,000) years ago to Moses very refreshing and up to date. Everything that God had claimed He had created was also up to date and true.

He discovered in his studies that this revelation in (Gen 1) was given to Moses, who has grown up under the schools of Pharaoh that taught and believed at that time that man came out of the slime of the Nile river, but what God had claimed could not be refuted evidenced by the fact that they existed just as God said they did, so when he read Balak's testimony of God in (Num 23:19), it meant something more that just a claim. God was someone that could be trusted and if He could be trusted with these claims than He could be trusted about His salvation and the testimony of why He sent His Son.

God draws many to hear the gospel from those that have been saved by it and have become God's mouthpiece for the gospel as the 'living word'. This can be in the home, on the street, at the hair salon, at an evangelical crusade, from reading a tract left at your home to seeing a friend, neighbor or loved one that has become a believer with a transformed life. There are so many 'fish hooks' that God has put out there so that we can seek the lost and be 'fishers of men' (Mt 4:19, Mk 1:17).

 

[tribesman]

Humm, I'm not sure how your using the word "heathen" if it's those who have not been moved upon by the Holy Spirit,.... or Nations.

The heathen I referred to in that post are non-believing gentiles. They are not israelites after the flesh, they are not spiritual israelites (believers).

Now,.....Here's the question, if Christ paid for the sin of the whole world, and those that have not been quickened die without receiving God's quickening Spirit, What happens to that one? Are they at fault? Since it was never given to them?

They are at fault and will be condemned for their unbelief and rejection of Christ. Just because it was not given them to believe it doesn't mean that their guilt is nullified.

They would have died in their sins, but..............Is he lost for all eternity? And are we so sure that, that spirit could not receive salvation apart from the body? (Still having to receive through Christ, I not saying there is another Way,) but would it be impossible, since The Lord Himself says, Is my hand to short that I cannot save to the Uttermost? Blessings

We cannot know all about alterlife, but questions like this I think it not useful to debate. As always, we must primarily go with what the revealed word of God says on the matter. I believe these scriptures below are quite clear cut.

Luke 16

[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Heb.9

[24] For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
[25] Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
[26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Rev.17

[8] The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev.20

[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think we are all missing the point. Abiding made some great points which show God must work, we can not come to God on our own. And no one that I know of is denying this.

However scripture also speaks of Gods work in the unbelieving man who ultimately will reject God.

Rom 1 tells us these unbelieving men;

1. Know God
2. Knows they are rightly judged
3. Chose sin, and false idols over the real and true God
4. God allows them to go in their way of error

what we see is these people know the truth, but have CHOSEN to reject it. thus God has said they will have no excuse. Someone who can't possibly know or chose has an excuse, because they were not given the opportunity to believe anything.

We also see in the word of christ,

8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

This is the Holy Spirits work in convicting all mankind of these things. mankind can chose to reject the HS's convictions. Or chose to agree, and have faith in Christ.

that is why no man will have an excuse. everyone is given the same opportunity. If they reject God, it is not God's fault, it is there fault, and they will suffer their just reward.,

 

[shroom2]

They are at fault and will be condemned for their unbelief and rejection of Christ. Just because it was not given them to believe it doesn't mean that their guilt is nullified.

That ^^^ is what is wrong with Calvinism.

 

[Abiding]

Tribesman: They are at fault and will be condemned for their unbelief and rejection of Christ. Just because it was not given them to believe it doesn't mean that their guilt is nullified.


This is something i dont understand also. What do you mean "given them to believe" All men are empowered to believe. In their evil(preferance) hearts
they may choose to reject the gospel or not be given repentance due to their unwilling hearts. But to say they were given to believe...to me is
stretching things. Faith and belief are not exactly the same......could you please explain more? I kinda understand what you could be saying
but im not sure.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They are at fault and will be condemned for their unbelief and rejection of Christ. Just because it was not given them to believe it doesn't mean that their guilt is nullified.

This does not make any sense. it is like saying they were condemned for unbelief, but they had no chance to make the choice to believe or not. If they were given no choice. then they can not be condemned for unbelief because they had no option to believe or not.

 

[tribesman]

That ^^^ is what is wrong with Calvinism.

It is not "calvinism" which says that those that believe not are condemned already (John 3:18). Noone is innocent. Is that "unfair"? Does God owe man anything?

This is something i dont understand also. What do you mean "given them to believe" All men are empowered to believe. In their evil(preferance) hearts they may choose to reject the gospel or not be given repentance due to their unwilling hearts. But to say they were given to believe...to me is stretching things. Faith and belief are not exactly the same......could you please explain more? I kinda understand what you could be saying but im not sure.

I see no scripture which says "all men are empowered to believe" (with that said, do you mean to say that all men have "equal chance" to believe, if they just wills it?). I do see a lot of examples in scripture of people refusing to believe and rejecting Christ. This, certainly a natural/unregenerate man is "free" to will and do. What about those to the contrary that positively repents and believe? How is it possible? I believe this has been discussed at length in several threads, inclusive this one. To summarize it, those who are saved have only God to thank for it, those who are condemned have only themselves to blame for it. That's what it boils down to.

This does not make any sense. it is like saying they were condemned for unbelief, but they had no chance to make the choice to believe or not. If they were given no choice. then they can not be condemned for unbelief because they had no option to believe or not.

So you mean that giving a "chance and choice" to sinners will nullify their guilt? Is maybe those that never heard the gospel innocent? Is hearing the gospel a "human right"?

 

[tribesman]

Faith is not something that the unregenerate man musters up in and of himself, faith comes to him by hearing the word of the gospel. The light of the glorious gospel shines unto him as an unregenerate man who is dead in trespasses and sins. He is the object of that light. The light came to him, he did not go to the light, faith came to him through the light of the gospel. He has the capacity to receive it or reject it, believe it or remain in unbelief, agree or disagree, meaning that his volition, that was dead and in darkness because of sin, has had light shine unto it and faith granted to it so that the unregenerate man can humble himself in that darkened state that has been enlightened through the gospel and believe unto the righteousness of God through Christ.

What you are saying is that if a unregenerate man only hear the gospel then faith comes to him, over which he gets volition to either accept or reject? Again, I think the problem here is that we give the unregenerate the charactheristics of the regenerate. This is not a small matter, as it does effect our view of man and ultimately of sin. You say, and have said it before, that it is unregenerate man who humbles himself before God and positively responds to His call, this response resulting in regeneration? While I'd say that actually some repentence and humbling of self is possible for the unregenerate prior to regeneration, none of this is in any way anything that can justify him before God.

Justification is a legal act where God on legal grounds "justifieth the ungodly": God is the only one who can do this. If man justifies the wicked (including himself in his lost state) he will become an abomination. And, no doubt, the "faith" and religion of the unregenerate is no better, all of his attempts to justify himself, to glory in self, to attain to righteousness and to boast of his efforts to that end are an abomination to God. None of it is justifying faith. According to Gal.5:23 humility (meekness, KJV) is a fruit of the Spirit. None of these charactheristics are found in the unregenerate. Only regenerate persons have this. Unregenerate persons do not have this, alas unregenerate persons can not have such humility before God. It is regenerate persons who positively responds to God's calling. I will give God alone the glory here and say that it is God who illuminates and humbles a soul to see his lostness and to understand that it is only by the atoning blood and imputed righteousness alone that he is just before his maker. It is the work of God that you believe the one He has sent (John 6:29).

This is all part of God drawing the unregenerate man unto Himself through His goodness and loving kindness. The decision made by man, once that light has shined unto him, can not be made for him, he must make it as an individual soul that God is calling through the gospel of His Son. That is the 'whosoever believeth in Him'. In that God is not willing that any should perish, He has made the cross and the gospel available to 'ALL', that all should come to repentance. God calls and the unregenerate man must response and believe to have everlasting life and come to that place of repentance that the goodness of God has lead him to. Through that goodness, God is able to turn him as an unregenerate man that is relying upon the living God to give him life through death.

I do not agree here, as explained earlier. Once I used to have a similar position to yours on this though, it was when it came alive to me that man is not only sick in his sins but actually dead in them that I saw the flaws in it. Also, it cannot be said that the work of the cross has merely made salvation "available". It will be argued, by scripture, that the work of Christ alone actually secured, bought out, His covenant people and their salvation. The work of Christ, for His people, in which He fulfilled all the conditions and requirements of God for them, in their stead, was then for God's acceptance rather than man's acceptance (conditioned on same). It is a work that makes unworthy sinners "acceptable in the beloved", before God. This said, I am convinced that the gospel should be offered to all, preached to as many as possible and that people ought to be encouraged to hear it. Yet we ought to see that the positive outcome of this rests in the hands of God.

 

[2knowhim]

Hi tribesman,
I have to agree with you on this.

It is no doubt God's goodness that leadeth thee to repentance,
but God makes His Goodness to shine on the just and the unjust.

So again there has to be a divine intervention for that individual
in order for them to be able to acknowledge Him. Like you said,
God only can justify the ungodly.

But He has done this through Christ,

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

According to this, It sounds like to me that God is not holding anyone acountable
for their sin anymore, They just don't know it yet, but it will be testified to them in due
time.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Blessings

 

[tribesman]

Hi tribesman,
I have to agree with you on this.

It is no doubt God's goodness that leadeth thee to repentance,
but God makes His Goodness to shine on the just and the unjust.

So again there has to be a divine intervention for that individual
in order for them to be able to acknowledge Him. Like you said,
God only can justify the ungodly.

But He has done this through Christ,

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

According to this, It sounds like to me that God is not holding anyone acountable
for their sin anymore, They just don't know it yet, but it will be testified to them in due
time.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Blessings

I have to answer this with a question, to get "where you are coming from" and your mind on this. You said that (because of scriptures like 2Cor.5:18-21 and 1Tim.2:6) God does not hold anyone accountable for their sin anymore. Then all ought to be saved. Will all be saved? Is that what scripture says? If it does not say that (which is doesn't) then how would you explain that some did not get saved? Was there something lacking in Christ's sacrifice or was there something lacking in them?

 

[Abiding]

Tribesman yes i believe scriptures show God draws men and empowers them to believe, all man. Not in their first born
nature do they have even the inclination to do it on their own. Plenty of verses stating all men are given this drawing. All.

I rekon your saying He doesnt draw all men. If thats what your saying, then your forgetting part of word of God. You can
say what i think your saying because you think that empowering a man to make a choice can only mean he has been regenerated,
at least thats what i think your saying(by fruit). But that is not what the word teaches.

I think youve went to far with this if your saying that a mans choice to submit to God with the grace given him to enable him to
choose is meritorious and adds to Christ alone. Hmm I sure dont agree. Nor do i agree this grace enablement is regeneration.
According to that logic then the very fact that the Holy Spirit convicts the man and causes him to repent and regenerates him
is adding to Christs sacrifice...therefore something was lacking in Christs sacrifice.

Its back to what ive said in other posts. We can read truths in one context and the actual specifications in other contexts.
But it takes the whole council of God to make a doctrine. And some of these ideas are partial.

Jesus once said that if a man has done all he was told to do...consider himself and unprofitable servant doing only
what he ought to have done. Where is the merit there?