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There is no such thing as "spirit essence". The bible plainly says that the dead know nothing. Dead people are dead. Their body rots, their soul dies, and their holy spirit, for those who had it, returns to God who gave it. "They", as a conscious entity, do not return to God. They die.
Paul was desiring the return of Christ, when he will be with him. He was NOT desiring death. When we die, the next conscious thought we'll have is the return of Christ.
Jesus said to the thief "Verily I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise". Jesus was dead for three days and three nights. He, and the thief, went to the grave. The thief is still there, and will be resurrected at the resurrection of the just.
They will be raised FROM DEATH, and given new bodies.
Right!
Their former bodies will be gone. Rotted. The bible does not say exactly how the unsaved dead will be resurrected, but whatever it is, they will be judged and destroyed.
There is NOBODY in heaven except for the Lord Jesus Christ. John 3:13.
Paul was desiring the return of Christ, when he will be with him. He was NOT desiring death. When we die, the next conscious thought we'll have is the return of Christ.
Jesus said to the thief "Verily I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise". Jesus was dead for three days and three nights. He, and the thief, went to the grave. The thief is still there, and will be resurrected at the resurrection of the just.
They will be raised FROM DEATH, and given new bodies.
Right!
Their former bodies will be gone. Rotted. The bible does not say exactly how the unsaved dead will be resurrected, but whatever it is, they will be judged and destroyed.
There is NOBODY in heaven except for the Lord Jesus Christ. John 3:13.
That is your incorrect opinion. 1 Thes elaborates:
1 Thes 4:
14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we [ Christians ]which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The unsaved will get up at the great white throne judgment Rev 20:11-14. They will be judged for their works, and those found wanting will be destroyed.
1 Thes 4:
14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we [ Christians ]which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The unsaved will get up at the great white throne judgment Rev 20:11-14. They will be judged for their works, and those found wanting will be destroyed.
T
You are reading into those verses what you want to believe. Those verses are speaking of ONLY the saved. I know you see it, but you just can't let go of your man made religion. The "all" to be changed are all the believers in Jesus Christ. Why are you being so deceptive and trying to lead people astray??? If you persist in this teaching, you will one day answer to God for it. And I would truly hate to see that.
Tom
Tom
Haven't you ever noticed that Paul has a tendency to swap the Titles of His Name?
Jesus Christ, .....Christ Jesus......There is a reason He does this.
One speaks of His Humility and His partaking of our Humanity, and the other speaks of
His Deity and His Glory.
One is Natural, One is Spiritual, Both in our Lord.
Some have even said that the one speaks of before the Cross,
And after The Cross. Next time you read Paul, think about it.
And then maybe you can see, the difference in Sleep in Jesus, and Dead in Christ.
Jesus Christ, .....Christ Jesus......There is a reason He does this.
One speaks of His Humility and His partaking of our Humanity, and the other speaks of
His Deity and His Glory.
One is Natural, One is Spiritual, Both in our Lord.
Some have even said that the one speaks of before the Cross,
And after The Cross. Next time you read Paul, think about it.
And then maybe you can see, the difference in Sleep in Jesus, and Dead in Christ.
Hell does have a specific location. I did some research and this is what I found...
Matthew 12:40 (Hell is in the heart of the earth)
The heart of the earth would be the core.
“Hell hath enlarged herself” (Isaiah 5:14)
Scientists tell us that this hollowed out ball in the center of the earth is getting bigger and bigger as the years go by. Every time they measure that hollowed out ball in the center of the earth, they say it has grown a little bigger. Hell is obviously enlarging herself.
Ezekiel 31:16 & Isaiah 14:15 (Hell is a pit and this pit is in the depths of the earth)
Isaiah 14:9 (Hell is beneath the earth)
Ezekiel 31:17 (uses the phrase "down into Hell")
The "lake of fire" is molten lava and is located in the mantle beneath the earth. During the eruption of a volcano, the molten lava flows out from here.
Rev 14:10 (mentions fire and "brimstone")
Brimstone is sulfur. Sulfur is found beneath the earth's crust.
God is in control and since the core keeps growing in size ("hell hath enlarged") is it possible that the whole of the earth’s surface will eventually become part of the Lake of Fire?
Hell is eternal torment in an actual place. Since those who are born again will be given glorified bodies, I assume that the unsaved will also be given a body of some kind.
I'll never look at a volcano the same way
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F
Hell is (or will be) a real place, the condition will be the punishment thereof.
Hell is the contrast of Heaven.
In Heaven: , Life, Light, Peace, Joy, all Conscience reward
In Hell, Death, Darkness, Pain, Sorrow All conscience punishment.
There is no reason to assume Hell and the punishment is figurative, unless you also assume Heaven is figurative, and eternal conscience reward figurative as well.
I believe this kind of reasoning comes from the fact, no matter how clear hell is taught in scriptures, people do not want to believe it. Yet, when it comes to the rewards that are promised, people have no problem excepting a literal interpretation of heaven and the life promised to us.
. “Perish” does not mean the cease to exist, but it means that one who is alive in their punishment has perished. they are no longer a person who is eligible for heaven, but a soul in conscience punishment. I will get more into detail below.
The Fact that Christ used “Gehenna” to describe the future punishment should tell you it is eternal.
Your right, Gehenna always burned, it never went out.
The usage of such a place would have struck fear into the hearts of those who knew Gehenna and what it was used for.
The unsaved are treated as the trash that will burn forever. this is why Gehenna was used to describe hell.
God is just and will meet out to each lost one what they deserve. Jesus said that the one who knew the masters will and didn't do it will be beaten with many stripes; but the one who didn't know will be beaten with few. If God intended to eternally torment people this verse would not make sense[/quote]Even if “beaten with many and few stripes showed a degree in punishment, it would not erase what God has revealed about hell.
You need to look at the entire context of Luke 12:
First, the parable that leads to this is showing a servant That knew his lords will and disobeyed it.
He that knew was beaten with many stripes -
Luke 12:48: But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
He that knew not, those who have not heard the word of God, Yet did things that violated the laws of nature and of their conscience bearing witness against them.
This would not apply to you and me, as we have the word of God and do know his will.
Well, that can defiently be debated depending on certain passages of the OT. But I will not go there because it really does not matter. Because if it’s not revealed in the OT, it changes nothing. The NT has revealed the mysteries hid since the beginning of creation as we are told:
I Corinthians 2:7: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
It has been said the OT is the NT concealed, and the NT is the OT revealed. Because the NT teaches us the things that were not explicitly manifested in the OT, yet through types and shadows the NT reveals the true meaning of things.
Again, why would you assume Eternal life is not figurative, just as it’s contrast of punishment?
Two verses in revelation is enough. Yet it is symbolic in many areas. That does not mean all things are symbolic. When something is read as figurative, it must be because the context demands it. The context of Hell in Revelation demands no figurative interpretation, because it fits with the teachings of the rest of scripture.
Matthew 25:41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
This is the same place revered for Satan and his angles. The fire is everlasting, if the punishment was not, then the fire has no fear because it is everlasting.
We know this because “the smoke of their torment will rise forever”. - Rev 14:11
“The smoke of torment” could be figurative, maybe not.
“will rise forever” - could be figurative, but for what is would it be symbolizing?
The eternal punishment of the wicked, is what it would be symbolizing if not literal, which i have no reason not to take this literal, as I would assume real smoke may be present.
II Thessalonians 1:9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
this is not saying the death, or inhalation is everlasting, but the destruction is .i.e. the punishment.
Agreed. One must accept Christ in order to have eternal life, this is the reward and it is literal.
One the contrary, if one rejects Christ, he will have eternal death this is the punishment, no reason to assume it is not literal as it counter part.
[/quote] problem came in in the early centuries of the church with the teaching of the immortality of the soul.[/quote]The early church, would be the church we find, starting in the book of Acts, and through the letters written to the churches found in the NT.
They did teach the immortality of the soul.
No where does it say our souls will cease to exist. they will always exist, in a state of punishment and reward.
Ecclesiastes 12:7: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Hebrews 4:12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Clearly their is a distinction between soul and spirit, for they are not the same. Yet something they are used interchangeably, yet other times as in Heb 4, they are clearly distinct.
Many passages speak of the soul, in as the punishment recipient.
Matt 10:28 - “ ...fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell”.
Everlasting punishment, is everlasting destruction. It is not a poof, and your gone.
It was carried over from greek philosophy. The greeks taught that the soul is immortal, but the Bible does not. [/quote]Of the soul goes on after the death of the body, and the soul enters into punishment or reward, that is everlasting, that implies immortality as Paul says “this mortal must put on immortality” when speaking of the resurrection. He says “we all shall be changed”, meaning saved and unsaved. All will be clothed in different bodies (who knows what they will be).
Some will rise to the resurrection of damnation, others to life eternal.
I will see if I can find it a Library or something, let you know what i think.
Hell is the contrast of Heaven.
In Heaven: , Life, Light, Peace, Joy, all Conscience reward
In Hell, Death, Darkness, Pain, Sorrow All conscience punishment.
There is no reason to assume Hell and the punishment is figurative, unless you also assume Heaven is figurative, and eternal conscience reward figurative as well.
I believe this kind of reasoning comes from the fact, no matter how clear hell is taught in scriptures, people do not want to believe it. Yet, when it comes to the rewards that are promised, people have no problem excepting a literal interpretation of heaven and the life promised to us.
. “Perish” does not mean the cease to exist, but it means that one who is alive in their punishment has perished. they are no longer a person who is eligible for heaven, but a soul in conscience punishment. I will get more into detail below.
The Fact that Christ used “Gehenna” to describe the future punishment should tell you it is eternal.
Your right, Gehenna always burned, it never went out.
The usage of such a place would have struck fear into the hearts of those who knew Gehenna and what it was used for.
The unsaved are treated as the trash that will burn forever. this is why Gehenna was used to describe hell.
God is just and will meet out to each lost one what they deserve. Jesus said that the one who knew the masters will and didn't do it will be beaten with many stripes; but the one who didn't know will be beaten with few. If God intended to eternally torment people this verse would not make sense[/quote]Even if “beaten with many and few stripes showed a degree in punishment, it would not erase what God has revealed about hell.
You need to look at the entire context of Luke 12:
First, the parable that leads to this is showing a servant That knew his lords will and disobeyed it.
He that knew was beaten with many stripes -
Luke 12:48: But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
He that knew not, those who have not heard the word of God, Yet did things that violated the laws of nature and of their conscience bearing witness against them.
This would not apply to you and me, as we have the word of God and do know his will.
Well, that can defiently be debated depending on certain passages of the OT. But I will not go there because it really does not matter. Because if it’s not revealed in the OT, it changes nothing. The NT has revealed the mysteries hid since the beginning of creation as we are told:
I Corinthians 2:7: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
It has been said the OT is the NT concealed, and the NT is the OT revealed. Because the NT teaches us the things that were not explicitly manifested in the OT, yet through types and shadows the NT reveals the true meaning of things.
Again, why would you assume Eternal life is not figurative, just as it’s contrast of punishment?
Two verses in revelation is enough. Yet it is symbolic in many areas. That does not mean all things are symbolic. When something is read as figurative, it must be because the context demands it. The context of Hell in Revelation demands no figurative interpretation, because it fits with the teachings of the rest of scripture.
Matthew 25:41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
This is the same place revered for Satan and his angles. The fire is everlasting, if the punishment was not, then the fire has no fear because it is everlasting.
We know this because “the smoke of their torment will rise forever”. - Rev 14:11
“The smoke of torment” could be figurative, maybe not.
“will rise forever” - could be figurative, but for what is would it be symbolizing?
The eternal punishment of the wicked, is what it would be symbolizing if not literal, which i have no reason not to take this literal, as I would assume real smoke may be present.
II Thessalonians 1:9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
this is not saying the death, or inhalation is everlasting, but the destruction is .i.e. the punishment.
Agreed. One must accept Christ in order to have eternal life, this is the reward and it is literal.
One the contrary, if one rejects Christ, he will have eternal death this is the punishment, no reason to assume it is not literal as it counter part.
[/quote] problem came in in the early centuries of the church with the teaching of the immortality of the soul.[/quote]The early church, would be the church we find, starting in the book of Acts, and through the letters written to the churches found in the NT.
They did teach the immortality of the soul.
No where does it say our souls will cease to exist. they will always exist, in a state of punishment and reward.
Ecclesiastes 12:7: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Hebrews 4:12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Clearly their is a distinction between soul and spirit, for they are not the same. Yet something they are used interchangeably, yet other times as in Heb 4, they are clearly distinct.
Many passages speak of the soul, in as the punishment recipient.
Matt 10:28 - “ ...fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell”.
Everlasting punishment, is everlasting destruction. It is not a poof, and your gone.
It was carried over from greek philosophy. The greeks taught that the soul is immortal, but the Bible does not. [/quote]Of the soul goes on after the death of the body, and the soul enters into punishment or reward, that is everlasting, that implies immortality as Paul says “this mortal must put on immortality” when speaking of the resurrection. He says “we all shall be changed”, meaning saved and unsaved. All will be clothed in different bodies (who knows what they will be).
Some will rise to the resurrection of damnation, others to life eternal.
I will see if I can find it a Library or something, let you know what i think.
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E
wow, so when scripture says they will burn forever, and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth God does not mean it.
dude, you need to stop reading things from these fanatics. they are leading you in error. and teaching you dangerous false truths. If there is no eternal separation from God, there is no need to come to Christ. for I can live a good life in this world, and not worry about the other world, and have no fear. because I will just cease to exist. Why should I suffer in this world when I don't have to worry about suffering in the next?
dude, you need to stop reading things from these fanatics. they are leading you in error. and teaching you dangerous false truths. If there is no eternal separation from God, there is no need to come to Christ. for I can live a good life in this world, and not worry about the other world, and have no fear. because I will just cease to exist. Why should I suffer in this world when I don't have to worry about suffering in the next?
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
I think hell is a place. No different than heaven. A place. A lake of fire. You go there and you are in pain and suffering for all eternity. Scary thought. We're lucky we know Jesus.
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
I think hell is a place. No different than heaven. A place. A lake of fire. You go there and you are in pain and suffering for all eternity. Scary thought. We're lucky we know Jesus.
hell is the grave atm, however the lake of fire spoken
of in revelation is the real hell prepared for the devil and
his angels.
when you die your soul dies with the body and the spirit
(breath of life) goes to God who first gave it until Christ
resurrects us with new incorruptible bodies.
if one thinks otherwise is because they tend to take
everything written in scripture as literal.
of in revelation is the real hell prepared for the devil and
his angels.
when you die your soul dies with the body and the spirit
(breath of life) goes to God who first gave it until Christ
resurrects us with new incorruptible bodies.
if one thinks otherwise is because they tend to take
everything written in scripture as literal.
F
So I guess the Jews are the rich man.
The Gentiles - the beggar
They begged the Jews for food (spirtual?) and the Jews refused them so they were sent to a figuartive flame of fire that tormented them, and regreted not helping the Gentiles. And why they were in this figuartive torment, they wanted Abraham to raise them so they could warn other Jews to be sure and help the Gentles or they will be in a figurative torment. They wanted water figuratively, showing that in our unconscious torment, we will be figuratively thirsty.
lol Ill stop now.
The Gentiles - the beggar
They begged the Jews for food (spirtual?) and the Jews refused them so they were sent to a figuartive flame of fire that tormented them, and regreted not helping the Gentiles. And why they were in this figuartive torment, they wanted Abraham to raise them so they could warn other Jews to be sure and help the Gentles or they will be in a figurative torment. They wanted water figuratively, showing that in our unconscious torment, we will be figuratively thirsty.
lol Ill stop now.
T
Everything that I read in the NT points to the destruction of the unsaved. There is always a contrast between life or death. "should not perish, but have everlasting life" is but one example from Jesus. How could He make a contrast like that if both parties, the saved and unsaved, have eternal life? It would make no sense. Jesus could have said, "should not be eternally seprerated and tortured in hell, or to be forever with me in heaven, but He never gives that contrast. If you've read through everything I've written in the thread, "Misunderstanding of hell", you would see all of the references I give. There is only one reference in Matthew 25, and two references in Revelation that are used to teach unending concious torment. If you read through all of the Gospels and Pauls letters, you will not see this teaching of the unsaved being tortured forever.
It's funny how you thought my teaching on election and predestination make God look horrible, but as long as you have your "free will" to choose God, you have no problem with God torturing people forever based on their rejection of Him. God even taught the Israelites not to overly punish a fellow human, so why would He do less. What could someone possibly do in a finite amount of time to possibly deserve to be forever tortured? Please read through the rest of that thread and think carefully about it. I know it sounds like heresy or crazy talk. I know, since I held to unending conscious torment for many years. But is wasn't any teacher that led me to see it was wrong, it was the verses that Jesus spoke of about the "the one who knew the masters will and didn't do it will would be beaten with many stripes, but the one who didn't know would be beated with few". I used to hear teachers say that that was teaching degrees of hell. But I would think, "why the distinction of many or few stripes if it went on forever"? Would it really matter what degree of hell if it went on forever??!!
No, God would not torture anyone forever. That is not His nature. Eternal torture has been a slander against God's character for too long. The real hell will be people realizing that they will miss out on eternity with God. The gnashing of teeth you speak of doesn't indicate pain, but anger. I explain it in that thread, if you wish to know more.
This is a serious issue, so you should at least go thtough the the whole thread before passing judgment on it.
God bless.
Tom
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