5 Points of Arminianism

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NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
977
386
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#41
“Methodism, also called the Methodist movement, is a group of historically related denominations of Protestant Christianity whose origins, doctrine and practice derive from the life and teachings of John Wesley. George Whitefield and John's brother Charles Wesley were also significant early leaders in the movement. They were named Methodists for "the methodical way in which they carried out their Christian faith".[1][2] Methodism originated as a revivalmovement in the Church of England in the 18th century and became a separate denomination after Wesley's death. The movement spread throughout the British Empire, the United States, and beyond because of vigorous missionary work,[3] and today has about 80 million adherents worldwide.[nb 1][4]

Wesleyan theology, which is upheld by the Methodist churches, focuses on sanctification and the transforming effect of faith on the character of a Christian. Distinguishing doctrines include the new birth,[5] assurance,[6][7] imparted righteousness, the possibility of entire sanctification,[8] and the works of piety. Scripture is considered a primary authority, but Methodists also look to Christian tradition, including the historic creeds. Most Methodists teach that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died for all of humanity and that salvation is available for all.[9] This is an Arminian doctrine,[nb 2] as opposed to the Calvinist position, that God has pre-ordained the salvation of a select group of people.
On January 3, 2020, a group of the church's leaders proposed a plan to split the United Methodist Church over issues of sexual orientation (particularly same-sex marriage) and create a new traditionalist Methodist denomination, which is called the Global Methodist Church,[15][16][17] though before its establishment, some congregations already left to join the Free Methodist Church, which is aligned with the Wesleyan-holiness movement.[18][19]” Wiki.

How about now?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,769
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#42
There’s an awful lot of people on here that have a lot to say on the topic without really understand what they’re saying.
I believe you are mistaken. Those who reject Five Point Calvinism understand exactly what it means and how it perverts the true Gospel. Just two verses of Scripture -- which are in fact the words of Christ -- refute Calvinism:

GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION IS FOR THE WORLD OF HUMANITY
For God so loved the world...

GOD GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON FOR ALL HUMANITY
...that he gave his only begotten Son,

IF ALL WOULD BELIEVE ALL WOULD BE SAVED
...that whosoever believeth in him

ALL COULD BE SAVED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION AND RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE AS A GIFT
...should not perish, but have everlasting life.

CHRIST DID NOT COME TO BRING DAMNATION ON ANY
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;

BUT THAT THE WORLD OF HUMANITY MIGHT BE SAVED
...but that the world through him might be saved.

So just these two verses refute (1) Total Depravity, (2) Unconditional Election, (3) Limited Atonement, and (4) Irresistible Grace. "Whosoever believeth" implies that all will not believe as noted in John 3:18. The real issue is how can anyone believe in Calvinistic nonsense in light of just these two verses? Which means that it takes brainwashing and indoctrination to believe the Five Points of Calvinism.

The "P" in TULIP stands for the perseverance of the saints, rather than for the eternal security of the believer. And the true Gospel includes the eternal security of the believer in Christ.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,577
3,614
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#43
  • Human Free Will – This states that though man is fallen, he is not incapacitated by the sinful nature and can freely choose God. His will is not restricted and enslaved by his sinful nature.

Yes but the Holy Spirit works on the conseience of each individuel as they go through the process of coming to the knowledge of the Atonement of Jesus..
  • Conditional Election –
    God chose people for salvation based on His foreknowledge where God looks into the future to see who would respond to the gospel message.
Agreed..
That"s only potential but not in reality.. The Atonement will pay the penalty of sin for all who will believe The LORD Jesus and trust in the Atonement He secured on the cross..

Agreed.. I deal with people nearly every day who are resisting the Grace of God..
It's not a case of losing.. It is a case of rejecting the Atonement that once believed in.. Yes people who once where saved can then come to cast away their salvation by coming to disbelieve that the Atonement of Jesus pays the penalty for their sins..
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
804
317
63
#44
Arminius taught that unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God’s will.
For Arminius, God’s love was the determining initiator and arbiter of human destiny.


The Arminian five points are laid out as FACTS:

Freed by Grace (to Believe)
Atonement for All
Conditional Election
Total Depravity
Security in Christ
Hi! I know many good, sincere Christians aren't able to agree fully on the subjects pertaining to salvation. We are to be patient with those who sincerely see differently than ourselves may see things on this subject, and to pray for God to help both ourselves and others to understand these things as correctly as possible. Though it's true - that no doubt, many Christians go into heaven after this life without having learned them 100 % correctly while on earth. But all will understand them 100 % correctly when they get to heaven, as the Bible says so. I personally believe that God's Word teaches that God is not happy about anyone ending up in hell - but does have the foreknowledge to know which people will make the choice to be His children, and which ones will not. He doesn't force anyone to repent - He wants willing consent. Jesus died on the cross so that all people could be saved, provided they are willing to repent and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior of their lives. He only forgives those who do so. We are all dead in our sins outside of Christ. No good works can save anyone outside of having a saving relationship with Christ. I do believe (and the church we presently attend also believes) that it is possible for some Christians to fall away. But it is not a helpless falling away. It only happens if a Christian willfully turns away. But there's always the possibility of eventually coming to repentance, and turning back to God. Though not all do turn back, I believe. But as long as a person is alive, they have the opportunity to make their relationship with Christ, if it is in a wrong condition. God bless you!
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#45
  • Human Free Will – This states that though man is fallen, he is not incapacitated by the sinful nature and can freely choose God. His will is not restricted and enslaved by his sinful nature.
  • Conditional Election – God chose people for salvation based on His foreknowledge where God looks into the future to see who would respond to the gospel message.
  • Universal Atonement – The position that Jesus bore the sin of everyone who ever lived.
  • Resistible Grace – The teaching that the grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.
  • Fall from Grace – The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation.
God awful.
 
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
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#46
We are to Glorify God in everything. Calvinism does not make God look Glorified but rather something with complex issues over power and control.

And that is not how God is described in the Tanakh. God would be the same as He has always been. He desires the Lost to find life.

How can a God who desires sinners to find Life also be picking and choosing which ones go to HELL?
 

Attachments

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
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#47
God's Election - God has chosen the way unto salvation through his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Man cannot will it or work it any other way. Man must go through Jesus Christ by believing in the death, burial, and resurrection for sins. Once a man believes the gospel, God places that man in Christ and puts the Holy Spirit in that man. He then predestinates that man, for the future adoption which is the redemption of the body. This destination is the final result of all those in Christ.
Your theology contradicts 1 Cor 2:14.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,735
29,094
113
#48
Hi! I know many good, sincere Christians aren't able to agree fully on the subjects pertaining to salvation. We are to be patient with those who sincerely see differently than ourselves may see things on this subject, and to pray for God to help both ourselves and others to understand these things as correctly as possible. Though it's true - that no doubt, many Christians go into heaven after this life without having learned them 100 % correctly while on earth. But all will understand them 100 % correctly when they get to heaven, as the Bible says so. I personally believe that God's Word teaches that God is not happy about anyone ending up in hell - but does have the foreknowledge to know which people will make the choice to be His children, and which ones will not. He doesn't force anyone to repent - He wants willing consent. Jesus died on the cross so that all people could be saved, provided they are willing to repent and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior of their lives. He only forgives those who do so. We are all dead in our sins outside of Christ. No good works can save anyone outside of having a saving relationship with Christ. I do believe (and the church we presently attend also believes) that it is possible for some Christians to fall away. But it is not a helpless falling away. It only happens if a Christian wilfully turns away. But there's always the possibility of eventually coming to repentance, and turning back to God. Though not all do turn back, I believe. But as long as a person is alive, they have the opportunity to make their relationship with Christ, if it is in a wrong condition. God bless you!

Thank You! God Bless You
:)
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
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#50
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God did not set this choice before all mankind, but before Israel, his people, before they were to go over and dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto their fathers . Life, if they choose it, was not eternal life, but that they would live and multiply in in the land that they were to possess (Deut 30:16). Death=separation. If they choose death, they would be separated from God's fellowship, temporary, until they repented, then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion on thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.(Deut 30:3).
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#51
“I don't like the first explanation, human free-will. Christ must draw everyone as it's impossible to freely know God.”

you look first at adam

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Adam is free to eat of any tree in Eden but he’s warned not to eat of one tree in Eden or he will surely die. The only thing restraining Adam from the forbidden fruit is trusting Gods word that said it’s death. Mankind was created inherantly free to choose to either believe God or to reject what God said.

satan didn’t strong arm them he told them a lie contrary to what God told them. They freely had both words and freely chose the serpents word to obey.

then you look at the result of what adam did for all Of his natural offspring ( human beings )

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

At his knowledge isn’t meant to be in us it’s not of God for man to have this issue

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21, 23‬ ‭

In order for someone to sin they have to be informed first God said “don’t eat this fruit you’ll die for sure “ Satan said “ you won’t die it will make you wise as gods “ sin is to know what is right and then do the opposite. Adam and Eve knew what god said and they also heard the devils lie

a they had two words opposite “ you will die “ “ you won’t die “ they trusted the serpent rather than thier creator who blessed them and gave the earth to them to rule in his image and likeness

later when the law came they were still free to choose Gods word and live like Adam or reject it and die like Adam

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God also set life and death before Adam and Eve and they chose death

now the choice is bekieve in Jesus and live or reject him and die still the same offer life and death is in accepting or rejecting what God is saying to you he’s saying the gospel to everyone and saying believe and live reject and die

anytime a person has two options and are informed of the result of each they have been given a choice and can choose freely and reap the results promised

at he only thing that keeps us from choosing Jesus is the idea we can’t choose Jesus

God has given mankind the freedom to make choices as to how they want to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth, but the eternal deliverance for those that God gave to Jesus for the redemption of their sin, (John 6:39), was made by God's sovereign grace, without the choice of mankind.
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
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#52
God did not set this choice before all mankind, but before Israel, his people, before they were to go over and dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto their fathers . Life, if they choose it, was not eternal life, but that they would live and multiply in in the land that they were to possess (Deut 30:16). Death=separation. If they choose death, they would be separated from God's fellowship, temporary, until they repented, then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion on thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.(Deut 30:3).

Colossians 2:17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

So the old testament is a type and shadow of the new testament. Yes, God did give that choice to the Israelites, but since God doesn't change, He gave us a choice as well in Jesus.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,735
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#53
What part of the following is awful?
  • Universal Atonement – The position that Jesus bore the sin of everyone who ever lived.
Sometimes it seems that no matter how many times a person is told something, they just can't
seem to grasp it, such as with universal atonement, for those who claim that if Jesus died for
everyone's sins, then all are saved, when that is not the case at all, for they leave the necessity
of faith out of their equation, and we know that without faith, it is impossible to please God.
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
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#54
God has given mankind the freedom to make choices as to how they want to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth, but the eternal deliverance for those that God gave to Jesus for the redemption of their sin, (John 6:39), was made by God's sovereign grace, without the choice of mankind.
But God's choice wasn't arbitrary.

Everyone knows this verse:

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

But God actually has a criteria. Look at the next verse:

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So it's the people who CHOOSE to listen to and learn from God that will be sent to the Lord Jesus for salvation.

Man still gets the choice and the Lord honors it.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,735
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#55
But God's choice wasn't arbitrary.

Everyone knows this verse:

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

But God actually has a criteria. Look at the next verse:

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So it's the people who CHOOSE to listen to and learn from God that will be sent to the Lord Jesus for salvation.

Man still gets the choice and the Lord honors it.
Say to those with anxious hearts: “Be strong, do not fear! Behold, your God will come with vengeance.
With divine retribution He will come to save you.” Then the eyes of the blind will be opened and the
ears of the deaf unstopped. Then the lame will leap like a deer and the mute tongue will shout for joy.
For waters will gush forth in the wilderness, and streams in the desert. Isaiah 35: 4-6



Luke 24:27 + 31
:)
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#56
What part of the following is awful?
  • Universal Atonement – The position that Jesus bore the sin of everyone who ever lived.

If all mankind were included in the atonement, they would all inherit eternal life, and that would be good, but only those that God gave to his Son (John 6:39, John 6:37, John 17:2, John 17:9) The scriptures teach that some will go into everlasting fire, and that is awful.
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,850
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#57
If all mankind were included in the atonement, they would all inherit eternal life, and that would be good, but only those that God gave to his Son (John 6:39, John 6:37, John 17:2, John 17:9) The scriptures teach that some will go into everlasting fire, and that is awful.
Yes, God gives those who choose to listen to Him and choose to learn from Him to His Son, Jesus for salvation. (John 6:45)

I can't help it - it's in the Bible!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,735
29,094
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#58
If all mankind were included in the atonement, they would all inherit eternal life, and that would be good, but only those that God gave to his Son (John 6:39, John 6:37, John 17:2, John 17:9) The scriptures teach that some will go into everlasting fire, and that is awful.
The shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient to pay the sin debt of the whole world (every single person who has ever lived, is currently alive now, or whoever will live in the future) but is efficacious only for those who by grace through faith believe.
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
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#59
The shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient to pay the sin debt of the whole world (every single person who has ever lived, is currently alive now, or whoever will live in the future) but is efficacious only for those who by grace through faith believe.
Yes,

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

This is why the Lord Jesus commands us to spread the gospel - so that people can choose to hear it and choose to learn from the message of the gospel. (Isaiah 53:1 “Lord, who has believed our message?”)
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
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#60
But God's choice wasn't arbitrary.

Everyone knows this verse:

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

But God actually has a criteria. Look at the next verse:

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So it's the people who CHOOSE to listen to and learn from God that will be sent to the Lord Jesus for salvation.

Man still gets the choice and the Lord honors it.
I understand your confusion, I was there many years myself. Some of Jesus's disciples told him that it was a hard doctrine, who could understand it.

Only God's sheep (his elect) can hear to understand his voice (John 10:26-29). The natural person, before he has been born again, cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness (1 Cor 2:14).

Before we are born again, we are spiritually dead, unable to choose spiritual things (Eph 2:1).