50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
8,034
2,175
113
Why would you believe GOD LIES just to hold on to the worship of a book (John 5:39)?

GOD SAID

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jeremiah 8:8)!

Why would you say otherwise (I Corinthians 10:21)?

GOD gave dominion to MAN ON THE EARTH (Genesis 1:26) Who calls men "evil continually" (Genesis 6:5) and WARNED them in Revelation 22:18-19

18 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

How can you believe the opposite of what GOD SAID yet think you are a Christian (I Corinthians 10:21)?

GOD SAID

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jeremiah 8:8)!
I am guessing you are one of the 10 undecieved ones on the planet?
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
8,034
2,175
113
I have a real good king james bible and a good greek interlinear.

I have the Holy Spirit guiding me.

All this elite ism seems to lack the Holy Spirit.

That "Im Jewish" card is nice and good....but no, you are not as elite as you think you are.
 
Apr 18, 2021
97
5
8
not sure who or what you are condemning
Did you not say "You are basically saying God is not able to provide his church with a decent book?"

GOD gives mankind commandments and if you don't obey get ready to suffer the repercussions.

GOD commanded us don't touch His Word or suffer the repercussions (Revelation 22:18-19) but also warned us that "men are evil continually" (Genesis 6:5) to whom He gave dominion in the earth (Genesis 1:26) commanding us to be prepared by "Seeking ye first Holy Spirit baptism" (Matthew 6:33) so (((HE))) can guide us into all truth" (John 16:13).

OK!

What did we do? Went with the writings in a book that "evil man" changed time and time again to adhere to THEIR trinity-water baptism doctrine that leaves mankind powerless "DEAD spirits" (Rm 5:12-14; I Cor 15:21-22) so they can BRAINWASH them with THEIR doctrine and NOT "the gospel of Christ" (II Corinthians 11:4)

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our LORD Jesus" (I Thessalonians 1:8)!
 
Apr 18, 2021
97
5
8
I have a real good king james bible and a good greek interlinear.

I have the Holy Spirit guiding me.

All this elite ism seems to lack the Holy Spirit.

That "Im Jewish" card is nice and good....but no, you are not as elite as you think you are.
Have you not heard

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God" (Romans 2:28-29)?

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.” (Proverbs 16:18)!
 
Apr 18, 2021
97
5
8
I have a real good king james bible and a good greek interlinear.

I have the Holy Spirit guiding me.

All this elite ism seems to lack the Holy Spirit.

That "Im Jewish" card is nice and good....but no, you are not as elite as you think you are.
Why do you need "...a good greek interlinear" if "the Holy Spirit is guiding you" when GOD doesn't use a "greek interlinear" (I Cor 10:10-11)?


Have you not heard

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God" (Romans 2:28-29)?

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.” (Proverbs 16:18)!
 
Apr 18, 2021
97
5
8
If i had to choose between being stuck in a elevator with Jesus or someone who thinks they, and they alone have every jot and comma correct....i choose Jesus every time.
That's because you don't know Jesus who speaks through men (Galatians 1:12) who said

"Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." Hebrews 13:2
 
Apr 18, 2021
97
5
8
If i had to choose between being stuck in a elevator with Jesus or someone who thinks they, and they alone have every jot and comma correct....i choose Jesus every time.
That's because you don't know Jesus Who said

"Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." Hebrews 13:2 “
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,958
4,069
113
See thats the thing.

End times is FRAMED in the bride / groom dimension.

It is spirit FIRST.

So why is almost no one framing end times in a Bride\groom dimension?
It is EXTREMELY RARE that anyone mentions it.

OKEY, I will mention it.

The Bride and GROOM go to the Father's House in HEAVEN For the Wedding of the Lamb. A WEEK LONG WEDDING, but it would not surprise me if that is a WEEK of YEARS. One Week (of years) Ceremony, followed by the Traditional, WEDDING SUPPER in the Father's House. After that we all mount up on White Horses and Follow CHRIST as HE wants to make WAR on the Nations that Attacked ISRAEL.

That is the Same WEEK OF YEARS, THAT ANTICHRIST STARTS A WEEK OF COVENANT WITH ISRAEL. ONLY TO BREAK THE PEACE TREATY. YES, A COVENANT IS A PEACE TREATY. HE BEGINS EXECUTING PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO BOW TO HIM, and starts WWIII. BY THE TIME HIS SO-CALLED PEACE TREATY IS ONLY 3.5 YEARS old, he marches into the TEMPLE, and announces he is god, and starts to excecute anyone who refuses to bow to him as god.

At the same time GOD POURS OUT ON THE WHOLE EARTH, HIS WRATH. That is why GOD had to limit it to 7 years only, as there would not be any Survivors. Yes, the 144,000 SEALED, from harm are all JEWS, to repopulate ISRAEL. So with WWIII going on, followed by GOD's WRATH, and JESUS RETURNS splitting Mount of Olives in two, and MAKING WAR ON every country that Attacked Israel, therefore Jerusalem; Israel's population is ZERO, with the 144,000 who fled to JORDAN. THUS the 144,000 will be needed to REPOPULATE ISRAEL with Mortal Human Beings.

Now I have to WONDER why do you want to talk about what is going on in ISRAEL, when the TITLE OF THIS THREAD is,
50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord ? ? ?

Isn't your efforts, just to try to DERAIL this thread, into what YOU WANTED TO TALK ABOUT ? ? ?

Seems to me, just talking about the RAPTURE, is the Original Poster's intentions.
May I suggest that if you want to talk about END TIMES, you start your own THREAD,
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,958
4,069
113
God's wrath begins in the temple when the returning Lord slays Antichrist and the armies which come up with him to Jerusalem. The church is removed.
NO, long before that.


Revelation 6:1-7 (HCSB)
1 Then I saw the Lamb open one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!”
2 I looked, and there was a white horse. The horseman on it had a bow; a crown was given to him, and he went out as a victor to conquer.
3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!”
4 Then another horse went out, a fiery red one, and its horseman was empowered to take peace from the earth, so that people would slaughter one another. And a large sword was given to him.
5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and there was a black horse. The horseman on it had a set of scales in his hand.
6 Then I heard something like a voice among the four living creatures say, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius—but do not harm the olive oil and the wine.”
7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!”


Revelation 6:12-17 (HCSB)
12 Then I saw Him open the sixth seal. A violent earthquake occurred; the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair; the entire moon became like blood;
13 the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind;
14 the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up; and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
17 because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?”

Revelation 7:1 (HCSB)
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, restraining the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.
 
Aug 3, 2018
6,219
1,245
113
correct and incorrect.
yes sequential - following in sequence, not consecutive in this manner:
  1. 27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
  2. 26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
#2 has nothing to do with 7 years or one week of years.
"The people OF the prince that SHALL COME" are not themselves "the prince THAT SHALL COME"

"The people OF [the prince that SHALL COME]" are the ones doing the 70ad things ("shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"--Lk19:41-44 / Matt22:7 / Lk21:23,20 / Matt23:38,39 "left unto you desolate..." / etc). This pertains to the "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined," in that, "the desolation THEREOF" in Lk21:23,20 speaks of the 70ad events (re: "Jerusalem"), and Matt23:38,39's "left unto you desolate" (re: "your house").


So, I'm saying that "the people OF" (who do the "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" thing) have to do with the "AFTER" 69 Weeks [total], i.e. in the 70ad events.

And that Luke 21:12 states definitively that the events of 70ad (in vv.12-24a) must take place "BEFORE ALL THESE [BEFORE ALL the beginning of birth pangs that were JUST DESCRIBED in vv.8-11]"; and v.24a "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations" plus v.b "AND Jerusalem [the Subject of the Dan9:24-27 prophecy] shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles UNTIL"... these items are VERY LENGTHY in nature... (the latter of these two, relating to Rev11:2, which verse provides the "timing" issue, saying that this aspect will not be concluded until the future 2nd half of the Trib is concluded at Christ's Second Coming to the earth).

So, right... "the people OF" do the 70ad thing (not having to do with the "ONE WEEK [/7 yrs]" time-frame); but "the prince THAT SHALL COME" (v.26b) himself, does!

The bold in 27 are errors.
Do you mean, like the following shows (at BibleHub):

[for v.27... which I believe only has something like 17-20 words]

Translations from Aramaic
Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
And he shall strengthen the covenant with many, one week and half of a week, and he shall cancel sacrifice and offering, and upon the wings of abomination destruction shall rest upon the desolation until the end of the judgments

Lamsa Bible
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for seven weeks and half of seven weeks, then he shall cause the sacrifice and gift offerings to cease, and upon the horns of the altar the abomination of desolation; and the desolation shall continue until the end of the appointed time; the city shall remain desolate.


OT Translations
JPS Tanakh 1917
And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and upon the wing of detestable things shall be that which causeth appalment; and that until the extermination wholly determined be poured out upon that which causeth appalment.'


Brenton Septuagint Translation
And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.




... since you had mentioned "Brenton" translation in your Post #2109.
 
May 22, 2020
245
32
28
We are saved from the wrath of God, that is what the Rapture is all about. But we are warned to expect tribulation.

Incidentally the Jews will all come home to Israel for the same purpose that the church is raptured. to separate them from the nations and to save them from the wrath of God. The wrath of God is upon the nations which came up with Antichrist to invade Jerusalem.

Tribulation is pre rap, wrath is post rap.

Agree with all (well put) except Jews. There will be an en-gathering of the Jew per end time prophecy but, they are lost. The ......Christian Hebrew.... will prevail however. From that God will save 12000 from each of the 12 tribes as seed to go into the millenium reign of Christ on this earth.
 
May 22, 2020
245
32
28
I have a real good king james bible and a good greek interlinear.

I have the Holy Spirit guiding me.

All this elite ism seems to lack the Holy Spirit.

That "Im Jewish" card is nice and good....but no, you are not as elite as you think you are.


Correct...and I am Hebrew.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
8,034
2,175
113
Did you not say "You are basically saying God is not able to provide his church with a decent book?"

GOD gives mankind commandments and if you don't obey get ready to suffer the repercussions.

GOD commanded us don't touch His Word or suffer the repercussions (Revelation 22:18-19) but also warned us that "men are evil continually" (Genesis 6:5) to whom He gave dominion in the earth (Genesis 1:26) commanding us to be prepared by "Seeking ye first Holy Spirit baptism" (Matthew 6:33) so (((HE))) can guide us into all truth" (John 16:13).

OK!

What did we do? Went with the writings in a book that "evil man" changed time and time again to adhere to THEIR trinity-water baptism doctrine that leaves mankind powerless "DEAD spirits" (Rm 5:12-14; I Cor 15:21-22) so they can BRAINWASH them with THEIR doctrine and NOT "the gospel of Christ" (II Corinthians 11:4)

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our LORD Jesus" (I Thessalonians 1:8)!
I am saying the opposite!
I know he did provide us with his word.
It is his testimony.
It is eternal.
I have a copy of it
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
8,034
2,175
113
That's because you don't know Jesus Who said

"Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." Hebrews 13:2 “
angels are not Jesus

Reread what i said.

You have not gotten what i said.

You are basically saying you would rather be with some entity other than Jesus.
Then scolding me for saying i would.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
8,034
2,175
113
OKEY, I will mention it.

The Bride and GROOM go to the Father's House in HEAVEN For the Wedding of the Lamb. A WEEK LONG WEDDING, but it would not surprise me if that is a WEEK of YEARS. One Week (of years) Ceremony, followed by the Traditional, WEDDING SUPPER in the Father's House. After that we all mount up on White Horses and Follow CHRIST as HE wants to make WAR on the Nations that Attacked ISRAEL.

That is the Same WEEK OF YEARS, THAT ANTICHRIST STARTS A WEEK OF COVENANT WITH ISRAEL. ONLY TO BREAK THE PEACE TREATY. YES, A COVENANT IS A PEACE TREATY. HE BEGINS EXECUTING PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO BOW TO HIM, and starts WWIII. BY THE TIME HIS SO-CALLED PEACE TREATY IS ONLY 3.5 YEARS old, he marches into the TEMPLE, and announces he is god, and starts to excecute anyone who refuses to bow to him as god.

At the same time GOD POURS OUT ON THE WHOLE EARTH, HIS WRATH. That is why GOD had to limit it to 7 years only, as there would not be any Survivors. Yes, the 144,000 SEALED, from harm are all JEWS, to repopulate ISRAEL. So with WWIII going on, followed by GOD's WRATH, and JESUS RETURNS splitting Mount of Olives in two, and MAKING WAR ON every country that Attacked Israel, therefore Jerusalem; Israel's population is ZERO, with the 144,000 who fled to JORDAN. THUS the 144,000 will be needed to REPOPULATE ISRAEL with Mortal Human Beings.

Now I have to WONDER why do you want to talk about what is going on in ISRAEL, when the TITLE OF THIS THREAD is,
50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord ? ? ?

Isn't your efforts, just to try to DERAIL this thread, into what YOU WANTED TO TALK ABOUT ? ? ?

Seems to me, just talking about the RAPTURE, is the Original Poster's intentions.
May I suggest that if you want to talk about END TIMES, you start your own THREAD,
Nope.
You misunderstood.

I was COMMENDING YOU for framing in the bride/groom dynamic.
Sorry i didn't mean to say anything to the contrary.
We basically agree.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
8,034
2,175
113
It doesn't at all, yes the 144k or the whole house of Israel ... the church is gone. God's kingdom on earth is set up and Christ begins His 1, 000 year reign through the Jews.

Folks zero in upon the bowls of wrath upon the unrepentant and overlook that the reign is Righteousness, Peace and prosperity. It will be rolled out across the earth pushing the the wicked back ever back to the 4 corners of the earth.
No
The 144k are firstfruits.

Firstfruits ALWAYS DENOTES harvest.
IOW no fitstfruits...no harvest.

So those 144k firstfruits are but a small portion of the main jewish harvest.

Harvest always is sectional
Firstfruits
Main
Corners
Gleaners.

If you remove key components you miss the picture
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,958
4,069
113
Nope.
You misunderstood.

I was COMMENDING YOU for framing in the bride/groom dynamic.
Sorry i didn't mean to say anything to the contrary.
We basically agree.

SORRY, I misunderstood. BUT I HAVE AN EXCUSE.

I am 72 year old, with 8 strokes, but still functioning. SLOWLY. That is a fact, Strokes run in my family.