50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
All this describes the Second Advent of Christ.


Glad you mentioned "caught up". We find "our being gathered to Him" in 2 Thess 2:1, which occurs at "the coming of the Lord", which is the Second Advent. And v.3 specfically mentions that His coming and our gathering won't occur UNTIL the tribulation occurs.
in thess. Jesus meets in the clouds

In rev. Jesus puts boots on the ground

Huge difference.

just saying
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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We are even told in the scene when Jesus opens the first seal. they are already their laying their crowns at the feet.
Yes! (y)

... and Paul had said he would be awarded/given a "stephanos/crown" IN THAT DAY (and not to him only); which does not refer to the day he *died* (and was then 'present with the Lord,' when absent from the body 2Cor5:6-10)... no.


Plus, in Rev5:9 they say, "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY..." ("US"!) And they are wearing "crowns" (where did those come from??) and are sitting on "thrones" (why is this?) and are clothed in the same thing ('in white raiment/garments [G2440]') that Rev3:5 had promised to ppl, in the "things WHICH ARE" section (chpts 2-3)... :unsure: [where it shows the 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" as being distinct from "the things WHICH ARE" which things are NOT stated "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"]
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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FreeGrace2 said:
The 10 virgins have NOTHING to do with a rapture. It's a parable. And one that is being "spiritualized" in order to try to defend a pretrib rapture.

Please address my post about 2 Thess 2:1-3. That's the key to the whole thing.

Like I said, it has NOTHING to do with a rapture.

So, since you disagree, please explain how "will be like" is a reference to the rapture?

While you're at it, remember that parables were given to those with ears that aren't hearing. People who weren't interested in what Jesus was saying.

Even Jesus' own disciples didn't understand any of them. Jesus had to explain all of them to His disciples.

So trying to use a parable to illustrate any doctrine is doomed to failure. They weren't meant to be understood.

And, not only that, but the parable of the 10 virgins has to be highly spiritualized to make it a rapture teaching.

When someone spiritualizes any verse or passage, they are able to say whatever they want to say about the verse/passage, and it can't be proven or refuted.

If Jesus resurrects/raptures believers and THEN takes them back up to heaven (the big U-turn), there would be a verse that plainly says so.

But, there isn't any such verse. So there's no big U-turn.

Plus, 2 Thess 2:1-3 places the "gathering" or rapture at the 'coming of the Lord', a phrase for the Second Advent.
1622751318977.png



The RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH and the Gathering of the Remnant of ISRAEL, are a different times. You are surely CONFESSED.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (HCSB)
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers,

THAT IS JUST BEFORE HIS FEET TOUCH DOWN ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, and what is being GATHERED is ISRAEL.

We are gone about 7 years before that.

QUOTE:
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other [Matt. 24:31].

The elect spoken of in this verse is still the nation Israel. The prophets in the Old Testament foretold of a miracle that would bring the Jews back into their land. (This is not the church, which is going to be caught up out of this world to meet the Lord in the air, NOT GATHERED. Angels are not connected with the Rapture.) The Lord will come in person to receive the church with the sound of a trumpet, and His voice will be like that of an archangel. He will not need any help to gather His church together. He died for the church, and He will bring it together. When He says that the "angels... shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other," we can be sure that He is talking about the nation Israel -- ministering angels have always been connected with Israel.
Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.
:END QUOTE.



QUOTE:
d. The Sound with Which He Will Return (24:31)


At His return the Son of Man "shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:31). Moses anticipated the judgmental scattering of Israel into all parts of the earth because of national sin; he also foresaw the end-time ingathering of all the remaining outcasts of Israel. In Deuteronomy 30:3-5 he prophesied that national repentance would be followed by national regathering:

Exploring the Future: A Comprehensive Guide to Bible Prophecy.
:END QUOTE.


The RAPTURE happens at lest 7 years before the Mat. 24:31 happens. We are not GATHERED by the ANGELS, we are:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (HCSB)
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.

READ THEM, AND WEEP!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes! (y)

... and Paul had said he would be awarded/given a "stephanos/crown" IN THAT DAY (and not to him only); which does not refer to the day he *died* (and was then 'present with the Lord,' when absent from the body 2Cor5:6-10)... no.


Plus, in Rev5:9 they say, "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY..." ("US"!) And they are wearing "crowns" (where did those come from??) and are sitting on "thrones" (why is this?) and are clothed in the same thing ('in white raiment/garments [G2440]') that Rev3:5 had promised to ppl, in the "things WHICH ARE" section (chpts 2-3)... :unsure: [where it shows the 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" as being distinct from "the things WHICH ARE" which things are NOT stated "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"]
Redeemed us from ever nation,

the 24 there represented the us, the many of all nations.

not just a few
 

ewq1938

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Now before we go any further, PLEASE EXPLAIN in Detail, what you mean by: worthy of being raptured.
God will ensure that certain Christians will survive the Great Tribulation and be raptured. They are worthy of this because they stay faithful to God while others commit Apostasy.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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Actually Mid trib rapture just before the abomination of desolation would fit also.

No, only one model fits and exists in scripture: post-trib.







The rapture is after the Great Tribulation has ended, after Christ's second coming begins, after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.


A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.

Let's back up slightly to establish context:



Paul is clear the rapture happens after the resurrection and the resurrection happens after the second coming. There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture.


It never fails to amaze me that a thread about the Rapture does not include the actual verses that speak of the Rapture and when it happens.

Rapture is an English word that comes from a Greek word which is Harpazo. Here is the Harpazo/Rapture and when it happens:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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FreeGrace2 said:
The 10 virgins have NOTHING to do with a rapture. It's a parable. And one that is being "spiritualized" in order to try to defend a pretrib rapture.
It certainly doesn't teach a pre-trib rapture but it is another way to depict the post-trib rapture. Christ returns and gathers virgins to himself and takes them somewhere. That's the rapture or our gathering to him. The tribulation would be happening while the slept and while the foolish went to those who sell to buy from them. That's clearly a reference to the buying and selling happening during the Great Tribulation. When the Messiah shows up, that is the end of the Great Tribulation where he takes his faithful to be with him...not to heaven of course but to be with him which is the Earth.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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Actually the starting point is the "revealing" of the man of sin. This occurs at the very start of the 70th week of Daniel and opening of the first seal of Revelation 6.
The man of sin will claim to be God but there will come a time that he will be revealed to be a fake god instead. When do you think that revealing happens? Could that be the revealing the verse is speaking about and not his revealing of first appearing?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Scripture disagrees with you.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
You assume that’s the second comming
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
No, only one model fits and exists in scripture: post-trib.







The rapture is after the Great Tribulation has ended, after Christ's second coming begins, after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.


A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.

Let's back up slightly to establish context:



Paul is clear the rapture happens after the resurrection and the resurrection happens after the second coming. There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture.


It never fails to amaze me that a thread about the Rapture does not include the actual verses that speak of the Rapture and when it happens.

Rapture is an English word that comes from a Greek word which is Harpazo. Here is the Harpazo/Rapture and when it happens:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.
yep. We are caught up with him

in Rev we are brought back by him.

2 events.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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113
View attachment 228357



The RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH and the Gathering of the Remnant of ISRAEL, are a different times. You are surely CONFESSED.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (HCSB)
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers,

THAT IS JUST BEFORE HIS FEET TOUCH DOWN ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, and what is being GATHERED is ISRAEL.

We are gone about 7 years before that.

QUOTE:
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other [Matt. 24:31].

The elect spoken of in this verse is still the nation Israel. The prophets in the Old Testament foretold of a miracle that would bring the Jews back into their land. (This is not the church, which is going to be caught up out of this world to meet the Lord in the air, NOT GATHERED. Angels are not connected with the Rapture.) The Lord will come in person to receive the church with the sound of a trumpet, and His voice will be like that of an archangel. He will not need any help to gather His church together. He died for the church, and He will bring it together. When He says that the "angels... shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other," we can be sure that He is talking about the nation Israel -- ministering angels have always been connected with Israel.
Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.
:END QUOTE.



QUOTE:
d. The Sound with Which He Will Return (24:31)


At His return the Son of Man "shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:31). Moses anticipated the judgmental scattering of Israel into all parts of the earth because of national sin; he also foresaw the end-time ingathering of all the remaining outcasts of Israel. In Deuteronomy 30:3-5 he prophesied that national repentance would be followed by national regathering:

Exploring the Future: A Comprehensive Guide to Bible Prophecy.
:END QUOTE.


The RAPTURE happens at lest 7 years before the Mat. 24:31 happens. We are not GATHERED by the ANGELS, we are:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (HCSB)
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.

READ THEM, AND WEEP!
Yes
Rev 14 is jewish firstfruits 144k followed by main jewish harvest of ripe fruit a few sentences later.
Probably about mid trib.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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You assume that’s the second comming
No assuming is needed. It is without a doubt about the second coming and it's not the only reference:

Rev_3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee .

Rev_16:15 Behold, I come as a thief . Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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yep. We are caught up with him

in Rev we are brought back by him.

2 events.
Yeah, everyone knows going and coming are two different things but they happen the same day, or hour perhaps much less. The rapture to the clouds of Earth will happen then they will fol.low Christ as he completes the second coming by arriving visibly.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
No assuming is needed. It is without a doubt about the second coming and it's not the only reference:

Rev_3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee .

Rev_16:15 Behold, I come as a thief . Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
circumstantial

have not proven a thing

again you assume they are the same there is no mention of Jesus returning to the earth boots on the ground in a battle in pauls words
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yeah, everyone knows going and coming are two different things but they happen the same day, or hour perhaps much less. The rapture to the clouds of Earth will happen then they will fol.low Christ as he completes the second coming by arriving visibly.
They happen the same day?

again, if you want to believe it feel free. But it makes no sense according to scripture
 
Jul 23, 2018
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The ac is revealed with the other horsemen at the very begining of the gt.
He is seated as God mid trib.

He comes on a white horse and "conquors " everything immediately.

The restrainer is holding them back.
At the rapture , 100% pretrib, the rstrainer is removed...ac revealed.

No way is he revealed mid trib.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Yeah, everyone knows going and coming are two different things but they happen the same day, or hour perhaps much less. The rapture to the clouds of Earth will happen then they will fol.low Christ as he completes the second coming by arriving visibly.
That notion is easy to debunk.

In fact...impossible.
Rev 14 has a gathering mid trib
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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No, only one model fits and exists in scripture: post-trib.







The rapture is after the Great Tribulation has ended, after Christ's second coming begins, after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.


A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.

Let's back up slightly to establish context:



Paul is clear the rapture happens after the resurrection and the resurrection happens after the second coming. There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture.


It never fails to amaze me that a thread about the Rapture does not include the actual verses that speak of the Rapture and when it happens.

Rapture is an English word that comes from a Greek word which is Harpazo. Here is the Harpazo/Rapture and when it happens:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.
Matthew is discussing the nation of Israel. Paul's epistles is dealing with the church.