50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[TheDivineWatermark]

And, again, when Jesus comes again, at the Second Advent or Coming, that will be a specific day, not a time period. In fact, Jesus referred to His second coming in "day and hour" terms. That's pretty specific.

So you are wrong about 2:1-3 being about a time period. Nope. It's a specific day.

Nobody is arguing that Christ's Second Advent won't occur on "a specific day" (a specific point in time... "day" and "hour": TRUE!).


The argument is: that is not what the false conveyors were purporting "is present / is already here [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"




[reminder: "PERFECT tense" means something that "BEGAN at some point in the PAST, and CONTINUES ON into the PRESENT"]

 

[OldSage]

@OldSage , I totally doubt that Walvoord made such a point. lol.

Are you speaking of the article in the OP (I assume)?

For sure. Read his words

6. The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration

 

[VCO]

Walvoord basically seems to be saying that the Church was raptured in the first century.... Lol. Another crazy Preterist?

6. The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.

The Rapture happens most likely between Rev. 4:1 and Rev. 6:11. No one knows the day or hour. But we can know the Season.


1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NRSV)
9 For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation 3:9-10 (NRSV)
9 I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying—I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you.
10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

 

[OldSage]

The Rapture happens most likely between Rev. 4:1 and Rev. 6:11. No one knows the day or hour. But we can know the Season.


1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NRSV)
9 For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation 3:9-10 (NRSV)
9 I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying—I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you.
10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Couldn't agree more

 

[randyk]

Nobody is arguing that Christ's Second Advent won't occur on "a specific day" (a specific point in time... "day" and "hour": TRUE!).

The argument is: that is not what the false conveyors were purporting "is present / is already here [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"

[reminder: "PERFECT tense" means something that "BEGAN at some point in the PAST, and CONTINUES ON into the PRESENT"]

Actually these "false conveyors" were indeed purporting that Christ's coming for the Church aka the Rapture had already come. They may simply have redefined it as spiritually contained in their Movement. A religious movement sometimes claims to be a move of God when it is not!

I do believe these Christians, carrying a false message, were portraying in themselves the "day of Christ's coming had literally already taken place." In this they were indeed speaking of the literal day and hour of Christ's return--something they believed had taken place in their movement.

 

[randyk]

For sure. Read his words

6. The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration

I'm not a reader of, nor a supporter of, Walvoord. But he most likely meant that Israel is prepared for restoration by disciplines experienced in the Great Tribulation aka Antichrist's reign. This is a typical Pretrib teaching, that Israel has its turn in the Tribulation period, and is prepared for national restoration through suffering the rigors of the Tribulation.

 

[randyk]

Nobody is arguing that Christ's Second Advent won't occur on "a specific day" (a specific point in time... "day" and "hour": TRUE!).

The argument is: that is not what the false conveyors were purporting "is present / is already here [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"

[reminder: "PERFECT tense" means something that "BEGAN at some point in the PAST, and CONTINUES ON into the PRESENT"]

When errant Christians proclaim a false coming of Christ, they are proclaiming he came on a literal 24 hour day. A "perfect indicative" form has to take into consideration the fact that this is talking about a literal 24 hour day which, after it comes, comes to be something that is in the past. It has already come.

So no matter how you present this "coming" or "presence," it is not something that continues on. It is something that at some point in time *has already happened.* You cannot use the form of the word "come" to indicate that a single day continues on forever!

If this supposed "coming" of Christ took place, as was proposed, at some point in the past, then at some point it has to remain in the past, and no longer continue into *our* present! Since it references a literal 24 hour day, that day took place in the past and was completed on the same day in the minds of those who claimed it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

For sure. Read his words

6. The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration

Some "pre-tribbers" use the term "The Great Tribulation" (in a "blanket" kind of way) to [incorrectly] refer to the entire 7-yr period leading up to Christ's Second Coming to the earth; whereas other pre-tribbers use that term to [properly] refer to ONLY the SECOND HALF of those 7 years. I am unsure which way Walvoord intends this phrase.

But he is for sure not conflating that phrase with the phrase (pertaining to the 70ad events) found in Lk21:23[20] "great DISTRESS IN THE LAND, and wrath upon THIS PEOPLE" (parallel to Jesus' words in Lk19:41-44, Matt22:7, and a few other places... speaking of the events surrounding "70ad"). He is properly *distinguishing* those distinct phrases (from what I recall of Walvoord's viewpoint).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You cannot use the form of the word "come" to indicate that a single day continues on forever!

Did the false conveyors use "a form of the word 'come'" ?? (v.2)


G1764 -
ἐνέστηκεν
enestēken / enistémi

https://biblehub.com/greek/1764.htm [LIST of occurrences]

https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm [verse 2]



____________

"come" - erchomai - G2064.... That's just ONE word for "come"... there are others, for sure... Just an example, here...

 

[OldSage]

I'm not a reader of, nor a supporter of, Walvoord. But he most likely meant that Israel is prepared for restoration by disciplines experienced in the Great Tribulation aka Antichrist's reign. This is a typical Pretrib teaching, that Israel has its turn in the Tribulation period, and is prepared for national restoration through suffering the rigors of the Tribulation.

Where do these guys get off? Like 2000 years of intense persecution is not tribulation? The guy is a crazy anti-semite. No wonder the Church is half dead, who wants to listen to a whack job theology like that?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Since it references a literal 24 hour day, that day took place in the past and was completed on the same day in the minds of those who claimed it.

K, we're covering the point of "what it was that the false conveyors were purporting "that IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" (per v.2).

PERFECT tense: that which "BEGAN at some point in the PAST, and CONTINUES ON into the PRESENT. *SOMETIMES* the results are PERMANENT" (not always so... but in the case of those things that ARE NOT *PERMANENT*, it is because SOMETHING or SOME [NEW] INFORMATION came along to CHANGE THAT STATUS"...

... but we're talking about what thing it was the false conveyors were purporting "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE]" and that's the info Paul tells us (v.2)... and for the Thessalonians not to be convinced by anyone purporting such a thing.

My question (to your point) is... until the Thessalonians received this letter from Paul, how long prior do you think they heard from the false conveyors, and IN THEIR MINDS did they think [whatever this thing was] BEGAN at some point in the past, and CONTINUED ON into the PRESENT (in their minds... in their thinking / experience).

Coz the words Paul supplies in v.2 (about the false conveyors' purportings) is in the "PERFECT TENSE" (... it BEGAN at some point in the PAST, and is CONTINUING ON into the PRESENT" [if only in their "wrong thinking/believing of the FALSEHOOD"--it's STILL what they were PURPORTING, see...]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@OldSage , "the Church which is His body" has been experiencing "persecutions and tribulations" ever since its existence in the first century [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]... FOR SOME NEAR-2000 YEARS! ; We see that in 2Th1:4 and many other passages. No one is denying such a thing (even Walvoord, from what I recall of him). It's that... we are NOT awaiting the "future 7-yr Trib" in order to experience it. (The 7-yr Trib serves a distinct "purpose" from that... tho certainly there will exist much of that same thing in those years ALSO )

 

[OldSage]

@OldSage , "the Church which is His body" has been experiencing "persecutions and tribulations" ever since its existence in the first century [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]... FOR SOME NEAR-2000 YEARS! ; We see that in 2Th1:4 and many other passages. No one is denying such a thing (even Walvoord, from what I recall of him). It's that... we are NOT awaiting the "future 7-yr Trib" in order to experience it. (The 7-yr Trib serves a distinct "purpose" from that... tho certainly there will exist much of that same thing in those years ALSO )

You talk in a very elliptical way. Can you please clarify?
I understand you to be blaming the sufferings of Christians for the last 2000 years solely on the Jews, and to be saying they will soon receive a terrible 7 year tribulation for what they've done us.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@OldSage , wow that's pretty warped... LOL


[one of the "purposes" of the "7-yrs" is to bring Israel into the New Covenant... ; And DURING those 7 Trib years, the believing remnant of Israel will be the ones LEADING THE WAY in sending forth the particular message of "INVITATION TO" the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom... (i.e. promised to them)... I suppose some people do find that offensive, that what they thought THEY were going to do *in the trib* had actually been assigned to someone ELSE, and not to *themselves*... in their wanting to *usurp* Israel's role and blessings... under the position/guise that they don't want to be an "anti-semite," ya know... ]

 

[OldSage]

Why is it funny?
It's hard to know what is more confusing, your 'theology' or your way of presenting it.
Give me an hour to decipher your last few posts.

@OldSage , wow that's pretty warped... LOL


[one of the "purposes" of the "7-yrs" is to bring Israel into the New Covenant... ; And DURING those 7 Trib years, the believing remnant of Israel will be the ones LEADING THE WAY in sending forth the particular message of "INVITATION TO" the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom... (i.e. promised to them)... I suppose some people do find that offensive, that what they thought THEY were going to do *in the trib* had actually been assigned to someone ELSE, and not to *themselves*... in their wanting to *usurp* Israel's role and blessings... under the position/guise that they don't want to be an "anti-semite," ya know... ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But he most likely meant that Israel is prepared for restoration by disciplines experienced in the Great Tribulation aka Antichrist's reign. This is a typical Pretrib teaching, that Israel has its turn in the Tribulation period, and is prepared for national restoration through suffering the rigors of the Tribulation.

Aside from the "pre-trib [rapture]" part, and if my memory serves ( it's faulty, many times! )... I think this is basically also how *you* see the final 3.5 years, am I right? (with regard to "Israel" in the last 3.5 years, turning to Him, I mean). Am I recalling somewhat accurately, your view?? Or no?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@OldSage ... refresh my memory... where in my last post did I use the term "funny"?

 

[OldSage]

@OldSage , "the Church which is His body" has been experiencing "persecutions and tribulations" ever since its existence in the first century [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]... FOR SOME NEAR-2000 YEARS! ; We see that in 2Th1:4 and many other passages. No one is denying such a thing (even Walvoord, from what I recall of him). It's that... we are NOT awaiting the "future 7-yr Trib" in order to experience it. (The 7-yr Trib serves a distinct "purpose" from that... tho certainly there will exist much of that same thing in those years ALSO )

Okay - I was a bit unkind as I am sure you don't believe that, so sorry for any offence.
But really Paul says that the Tribulation was a punishment for the tribulation of the Church
(in the Thessalonians that you quoted).

So this idea of a future 7 year tribulation for the Jews. Where does it come from?
I mean really? Where? (In both the scriptural and the diagnostic sense.)

 

[OldSage]

Also - some modern translations eliminate/obfuscate the meaning here in 2 Thess 1:4

KJV
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It is something that at some point in time *has already happened.* You cannot use the form of the word "come" to indicate that a single day continues on forever!

If this supposed "coming" of Christ took place, as was proposed, at some point in the past, then at some point it has to remain in the past, and no longer continue into *our* present! Since it references a literal 24 hour day, that day took place in the past and was completed on the same day in the minds of those who claimed it.

Allow me to re-phrase the actual definition of the "Perfect Tense" from the Greek Grammar sites...

... keeping in mind that the false conveyors were [or even 'potentially' could be] purporting that ____ "IS ALREADY HERE / IS PRESENT [*PERFECT INDICATIVE]" (v.2)... and Paul is saying for them not to believe such a claim...

[quoting definition]

Perfect Tense -
"ACTION COMPLETED at a SPECIFIC POINT of TIME in PAST (●) with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT (▬►). In certain contexts the results are PERMANENT."



"the perfect tense... emphasizes the present, or ongoing result of a completed action."

[end quoting]


... so if they were purporting something "IS ALREADY HERE / HAS ALREADY ARRIVED / IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"... then its "results" are "CONTINUING into the PRESENT" (meaning, "whatever it was"... took place/was completed at a SPECIFIC POINT of time in the PAST, and its results were CONTINUING into the PRESENT"

[unless we can think of something that would have intervened to "CHANGE THAT STATUS" like, introducing further info that changes the "results" from what one could call "PERMANENT" to instead be considered "NOT PERMANENT" after all, like "Jesus said His kingdom would be pretty BRIEF, you recall..."... but, as I see it, that'd be a notion I would think would be rejected from those CONVEYING the falsehood if the thing they claimed "IS ALREADY HERE / HAS ALREADY ARRIVED" was His Second Coming and the Rapture event (even tho there was ZERO EVIDENCE anywhere in sight, for such a thing to have convinced the Thessalonians WAS TRUE and cause for "troubled in mind / shaken" status for their part...)]


... I'm just not seeing it... I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint, based on the actual text Paul conveyed especially in v.2 (about the false conveyors' purportings... I do NOT believe the text itself is getting across the point that the false conveyors were saying "CHRIST has returned, and the RAPTURE has taken place" [*zero evidence* is blaring loudly to the Thessalonians right about now... the ppl who "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of "the DOTL's *ARRIVAL* (which Jesus also spoke of), according to the previous epistle...])