50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Jul 23, 2018
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As I said, this is the literal "day" in which Christ returns for his Church, in connection with Daniel's presentation of the coming of the Son of Man in a particular moment in time when the Antichrist has been persecuting God's People for 3.5 years. So he is coming on a *literal day* to put an end to the 3.5 years of abuse that the Antichrist is doing to God's people. I cannot, therefore, be a "period of time," and it certainly cannot include the "Tribulation Period," since Christ is there depicted as coming to *terminate* that time period!



Though that makes sense, it is not reasonably fit into this particular context, nor is it true of biblical eschatology overall. It makes total sense to say that if Christians believed they would be spared these tribulations at Christ's coming, they might think that they missed his coming if they continued to experience them.

The trouble with that is, that's not what is being said. That is what *you're saying* it says! You are adding all kinds of elements to Paul's message that simply aren't there in the text.

For example, nowhere is it said that Christians would be spared tribulation by Christ's coming. Rather, Paul assumes that Christians already know that Christ is coming to terminate Antichrist's reign at the end of a 3.5 years period. There is nothing at all, in the Scriptures, that say Christians are spared tribulation before that time!

The problem with Pretribbers is that they say Tribulation equals God's Wrath, and that's not accurate. It is true that God pours wrath out on unbelievers, and not on believers. But it is not true that believers are exempt from experiencing some of the problems in this world that falls upon us all because of the sins of unbelievers.

We go through hurricanes, earthquakes, wars, and illnesses all due to human sin. But we've been forgiven our sins, and have repented. Still, God asks us to go through these troubles in order to testify to Him in an ungodly world, in hopes that some will repent.

Going through tribulation, thus, is *not* going through God's wrath. But it is going through what unbelievers are experiencing as God's wrath. We shouldn't get it confused. Nor does God's wrath always mean that there can be no repentance. Jews have been going through God's punishment, or "wrath," for 2000 years. And still God is offering them repentance, forgiveness, and restoration.

So this false claim that there was Christian belief that Christ's coming would end our tribulations is false. That would happen, as Paul said, only after the destruction of Antichrist. That is the whole message of the book, which you completely are ignoring!

Again, it is completely unnatural to define "the day of Christ's coming for the Church" as an "extended time period." It is a *moment in time* in which Christ delivers the Church from the persecutions of the Antichrist, as depicted in Dan 7. Dan 7 is the obvious basis for all of this eschatology because it is the *only* place in the OT that deals this specifically with the subject.



No, this does not properly represent the argument, which explains why you feel it's foolish. The argument is much more rational than you are putting it. It's like this.

Paul was arguing in the same vein that Jesus had presented it, that false Christs would come. This means Christians are to expect false Millennial movements, Christians who claim to *be* the Kingdom of God arrived, people who believe that God is bringing authority to earth before the real arrival of the Kingdom of God.

We are to watch out for these. It isn't in the least irrational or foolish, since there have been a number of millennial movements in history, and cults, like the JWs, who think they are God's Kingdom active on earth. And there is even a "Kingdom Now" movement today, in which so-called "prophets" are claiming they are doing spiritual things with the authority of God when they are *not* doing those things!

This is a carnal display of power in the name of "spirituality," but is actually a false representation of Christ and his Kingdom. It is claiming faith to overcome Satan in this world, faith to assume prosperity and blessings against satanic opposition, etc. etc. But in reality, Satan and the Antichrist are given to "defeat" the saints in the present age, in some respects. In other respects, Satan can *never* defeat the Church. But our victory today is not carnal, but spiritual, and that is the message here.

Paul is warning us what Jesus had already said, that he didn't come to take us out of the world and its tribulations, that in the world we would, while we are still in the world, experience tribulations. This isn't experiencing God's wrath against us, but rather, our experiencing God's judgment against a rebellious, independent world. And some will be saved through our testimony. That's why we're called upon to "endure to the end!"

So those who were nearly being deceived by Christians who thought they were exercising this eschatological authority were informed that we are not given such power in the present age. Until Christ comes again there will be antichrists trying to usurp God and His authority in heaven. They will ultimately be defeated at Christ's Kingdom, and until that time comes we are to be aware of this kind of carnality and deception.
that is a completely different study.

The authority Jesus placed on the believers today.
That was , as Jesus said, expediant, as his departure would be followed by the power of the Holy Spirit upon believers.

Authority if the believer is a basic knowledge.

Clearly given. As the bible vividly declares.

....but rejected by some in ignorance


" my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

Hence the devil runs over believers ill equipped to stop him.
Their backs are smooth streets where the enemy has trodden them down over their ignorance.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Are you kidding? Daniel himself parsed this prophecy at 69 weeks. The rest of Scripture confirms it (the gap and the reason for the gap) in undeniable overwhelming unequivocal fashion. If you know what you're talking about the matter is far far beyond any debate.

Hint: the Church age fills the gap.....;)
Daniel parsed it? What do you mean?
Are you implying that he modified the words of God?
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Prematurely? This battle was won a long LOOONG time ago. Inevitable truth escaping your notice is your most predominant if not defining trait....:sneaky:

"never won" lol? On the contrary every engagement was a cringeworthy rout in his favor.

Why do you think that I am no longer adding much commentary? Because its completely unnecessary at this point.
it is flat out comical seeing postribs forced to reframe the bible.
They are literrally standing in ashes thinking they have standing.
Comical
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Does the term "time of Jacob's trouble" ring a bell? You definitely need to undertake a study on that. And the relevant chapters in Daniel. You might as well do a deep dive study on Zechariah, Hosea, Isaiah, Joel.........hhhhmmm yes all of the Old Testament prophets come to think of it. Because a firm grasp of the Old Testament prophets is essential to even begin to understand the book of Revelation.
By the way, if you're looking for a rise, try harder...:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I'm not a reader of, nor a supporter of, Walvoord. But he most likely meant that Israel is prepared for restoration by disciplines experienced in the Great Tribulation aka Antichrist's reign. This is a typical Pretrib teaching, that Israel has its turn in the Tribulation period, and is prepared for national restoration through suffering the rigors of the Tribulation.
The bible says they are ushered to safety with satan in pursuit.
Further, only 144k ETHNIC TRIBAL jews are sealed against the flying scorpions.

The gt is jacobs trouble and the days are shortened in rev 14 where JESUS sitting on a cloud harvests jews approx mid trib.

Jesus first miracle was at a jewish wedding. Wine was invoked by the master of the feast " you saved the best wine for last"
That DIRECTLY pointed to the vine harvest of rev 14.
The best wine, the wayward wife, comes to the feast lastly.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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By the way, if you're looking for a rise, try harder...:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
Okay thanks.
So does "the time of Jacob's trouble" have any Scriptural relevance as it pertains to eschatology?
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I don't want to argue - I want to hear more
Repeat the thread?
The pretrib model has many many verses and is a theme.

Maybe start with the ac killing all refusing the mark and how postribs have never factored that in?
 

randyk

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Jan 14, 2021
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I've attempted to.

I've stated that "the false info that said a certain condition exists" (according to the false conveyors in v.2) and that this is the reason Paul is BRINGING "our RAPTURE" Subject TO BEAR on the matter... "because" (he says) that "certain condition" (they said is in existence) will NOT exist until ONE THING HAPPENS *FIRST* ... and it is NOT that "the Antichrist must be here for 3.5 years FIRST"... That is NOT what point Paul is conveying here. Though he IS providing the "corrective SEQUENCE [issue]"... bringing THAT TO BEAR on this matter (of v.2's Subject).
It's very "wooden" the way you're saying this, and I think it's because you're making a mistake with a grammatical point you're trying to make.

The form of "come" has no bearing on the fact the day we're speaking of is a literal 24 hour day! Paul is talking about a condition of belief, which continues as a state of fact about the belief, and not about the continuing nature of the coming!

In other words, it is not about believing that the day will continue on indefinitely, but rather, about a continuing belief that the day has already happened.

Come (elthe) stands in the sense of a kind of hypothetical, as when someone claims something. It can be claimed that it has happened in the past, or it can be claimed that it will happen in the future. But the point is, this is a claim that something either has been or is.

It has nothing to do with whether the object coming is an immediate occurrence or something that continues on indefinitely. It only has to do with a continuing state of belief that something has happened or will happen.

So when you say Jesus comes, present indicative, continues to come, or something like that, it is very misleading. And several here think you're making a valid point, when I don't think you are. If this is what you're saying, it appears to be mistaken grammar. Since I'm not a specialist in grammar or language, I can consult my brother, who is much more specialized in this than I am?

Present indicative in "come" is a statement of fact that is presently existing. In this case, Paul is saying that the errant ones presently believe that Jesus had already come. It has nothing to do with their believing that the day of Jesus' coming continues indefinitely.

...Or am I completely misunderstanding you?
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
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Repeat the thread?
The pretrib model has many many verses and is a theme.

Maybe start with the ac killing all refusing the mark and how postribs have never factored that in?
False. I've answered this question recently. It is simple to answer. The Scriptures make all kinds of hyperbolic and universal-type statetments that are generalized and not stating, absolutely, that every single person on earth must take the mark or die.

It's like saying "everybody's dying" when the conditions exist in which many people are dying, and not literally everybody is dying, including everybody throughout the earth in all times.

We generalize in language all the time. The conditions for this "mark" have already been outlined as existing in a 10 nation empire under the Antichrist, probably in Europe. The mark will be applied within this empire, and obviously will reach only those who are actually caught.

Since the Scriptures indicate Christians will survive until Christ's coming, it's plain that many survive Armageddon and the mark of the Beast. Nowhere are we told that a "Rapture" is what delivers them *before* this time period!
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Lot and noah were removed.
Only from judgment, NOT removed from earth, as you are trying to make the rapture.

And don't forget Israel was removed from God's judgment on Egypt, all the while still IN Egypt.
So your assumptions and examples don't work for removing resurrected and raptured believers from earth.

As was the baby Jesus.
Another incorrect assumption. Jesus wasn't removed from earth, He was removed from Israel.

So either God made a mistake ( as you insist God never does that) or you are 100% wrong.
Given your poor examples, it is clear the mistake is on you.

Btw none are delivered AT THE END..or return to the starting place 10 minutes after rescue (the made up postrib uturn)
Nothing made up about a post trib gathering/rapture.

2 GThess 2:1-3 is clearly about Christ's Second Coming and rapture.

The only point of a rapture is to gather together the dead and living saints and giving them their immortal bodies. None of them then go to heaven.

That's why there are NO verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Because He doesn't.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Mhmm...

Acts 3:21 - "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive UNTIL the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [i.e. OT prophets and their OT prophecies]
I don't know why cv5 agrees with this verse, since it refutes his theory of a secret return to earth before the Second Advent.

The Greek "heaven receives" actually means "to receive, retain, to contain". A number of translations say this:

New Living Translation
For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Berean Study Bible
Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets.
Amplified Bible
whom heaven must keep until the time for the [complete] restoration of all things about which God promised through the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
Contemporary English Version
But Jesus must stay in heaven until God makes all things new, just as his holy prophets promised long ago.
International Standard Version
He must remain in heaven until the time of universal restitution, which God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets.

Clearly Jesus will STAY in heaven UNTIL the time of restoration. The restoration doesn't begin with the tribulation. It begins AFTER the tribulation. And 2 Thess 2:1 also says the coming of our Lord will be AFTER the tribulation.

And, no one has provided any verse that describes Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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I am so glad God showed me the correct prism of bride / groom centering.
It wasn't God who showed you that.

That dynamic alone DESTROYS any hope they have of going through the gt.
The Bible is clear that people will be spared His wrath. But it seems you don't believe God can or will.

Jews were spared God's judgment on Egypt, WHILE still in Egypt.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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it is flat out comical seeing postribs forced to reframe the bible.
Your comments are quite comical.

It's the pretribbers who have NO verse that describes Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. So you have a doctrine that you can't prove from Scripture. And none of the "rapture verses" mentions anything about going to heaven.

They are literrally standing in ashes thinking they have standing.
Comical
No, your view is the comical one. Believing what the Bible doesn't say or teach. Or maybe just sad. Very sad.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Repeat the thread?
The pretrib model has many many verses and is a theme.
Please stop this error. Your model has ZERO verses that teach that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

Why doesn't that mean anything to you? Why are you forced to spiritualize a parable in order to make up your theory?
 
Oct 23, 2020
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Thanks for the disclosure. Very enlightening.
Well I operate on the principle of if I don't know best to keep stum.
But your ironic quip has cut me to the quick, so ......

In the context Jeremiah would seem to be referring to the iron yoke

Jeremiah 28:13 Go and tell Hananiah, saying, Thus saith the Lord; Thou hast broken the yokes of wood; but thou shalt make for them yokes of iron.14 For thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; I have put a yoke of iron upon the neck of all these nations, that they may serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; and they shall serve him: and I have given him the beasts of the field also.


So i would say this is long ago fulfilled