50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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TheDivineWatermark

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However, I suggest that these things can be understood if the scripture interpretation is correct.
Well, we agree on ONE thing ^ , at least! :D ... I *do* agree with you on this ^ point. = )






[...however, I must say, that I disagree with your viewpoint that the "42 mos" equals "1260 years" ;) ... especially because the text states "42 mos" and states "1260 days"]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ --the thing that Jesus had said (during His earthly ministry / first advent) that "no man knoweth [perfect indicative]," not even He Himself (at the time), regarding the time of His Second Coming to the earth (per context), Matt24:36 (and parallels), He later disclosed *further information* on that very Subject in His LATER 95ad "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/unto Jesus], to SHEW unto..." (Rev1:1 [4:1; 1:19c])
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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there is no words of rapture or second coming in The bible.

rapture and great tribulation, only foolish put happy and pain together.


Glad you will did not bet on that, because you would absolutely loose that BET.

1623360994636.png


The English is Caught Up.

We use the LATIN WORD to get Rapture, Here is the Word and what it means:

QUOTE:
Rapture is derived from Middle French rapture, via the Medieval Latin
raptura ("seizure, kidnapping"), which derives from the Latin raptus ("a carrying off"). Wikipedia.
:END QUOTE.


John 14:3 (ESV)
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.



Matthew 24:21-22 (HCSB)
21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again!
22 Unless those days were limited, no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the elect.


Glad I could answer your misunderstanding.
 

ewq1938

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The time of the "twinkling of the eye" and our "being changed" per 1 Cor 15:52 isn't given. So it could be just before the believer's feet leave ground. Or it may be when they meet Jesus in the air (clouds).
I think the change has to happen when they are on the Earth because likely there is no oxygen where they will be raptured to not to mention the very cold temperatures.
 

ewq1938

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I see the uprooting horn as the AC -

antichrist is a NT term. In the NT that person is not said to uproot any of the ten horns of the Revelation 13:1 beast. It keeps all of the ten horns until the entire beast is destroyed.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

All ten horns will receive power to be kings the full hour which is the 42 months so that proves no horns are uprooted.
 

soberxp

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May 3, 2018
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Glad you will did not bet on that, because you would absolutely loose that BET.

View attachment 228562


The English is Caught Up.

We use the LATIN WORD to get Rapture, Here is the Word and what it means:

QUOTE:
Rapture is derived from Middle French rapture, via the Medieval Latin
raptura ("seizure, kidnapping"), which derives from the Latin raptus ("a carrying off"). Wikipedia.
:END QUOTE.


John 14:3 (ESV)
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.



Matthew 24:21-22 (HCSB)
21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again!
22 Unless those days were limited, no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the elect.


Glad I could answer your misunderstanding.
What did you answer ? answer for what ?
 

ewq1938

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2. So anyone who is against the government is really against something God has commanded. Those who are against the government bring punishment on themselves.
I assume this means you will be first in line to worship the image of the beast and receive the mark? Government will demand these things!

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
 

soberxp

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I have nothing to say against ignorance.It's like I can't read the Bible,Don't understand the scriptures of the Bible.

return of Jesus: for save
great women: for save
great tribulation: for save

If your understanding is out of salvation, then all your understanding is a wrong decision.

Jesus returns not only for save you, but for many even Unbelievers.

That's the key to understanding the Bible.
 

soberxp

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I want to laugh at theories that want to escape the world.by digest scriptures unknown meaning,hope God taking you to heaven from earth and Disappear into the world.you are not bornagain but coward.
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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FreeGrace2 said:
Please explain what Paul meant in 2 Thess 2:1-3.

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Thanks.

Because the entire thrust of a pretrib rapture is the trip to heaven after being resurrected or raptured.

Even the article by Walvoord in the OP opened up by citing 1 Thess 4 and saying that they all go to heaven, even though there is NO mention of going to heaven. Not in that verse, and not in any verse.

So, if pretribbers are trying to convince anyone of their position, they need to have biblical evidence for it. And they don't.
Pure baloney
Numerous verses of saints in heaven.
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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I want to laugh at theories that want to escape the world.by digest scriptures unknown meaning,hope God taking you to heaven from earth and Disappear into the world.you are not bornagain but coward.
Jesus told those cowards as you put it " i go to prepare a place for you...."
He went to heaven.

Was noah a coward for not floating on a log amongst the bloating bodies?

Was lot a coward for leaving sodom?

The baby Jesus a coward for ESCAPING to egypt?

Was Jesus promoting cowardice by COMMANDING believers to pray for escape?????
 

soberxp

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Jesus told those cowards as you put it " i go to prepare a place for you...."
He went to heaven.

Was noah a coward for not floating on a log amongst the bloating bodies?

Was lot a coward for leaving sodom?

The baby Jesus a coward for ESCAPING to egypt?

Was Jesus promoting cowardice by COMMANDING believers to pray for escape?????
Your questions are all about salvation. has nothing to do with escape.

Did the apostles and the disciples escape when they face persecution?
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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I have nothing to say against ignorance.It's like I can't read the Bible,Don't understand the scriptures of the Bible.

return of Jesus: for save
great women: for save
great tribulation: for save

If your understanding is out of salvation, then all your understanding is a wrong decision.

Jesus returns not only for save you, but for many even Unbelievers.

That's the key to understanding the Bible.



1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (NCV)
12 Now we did not receive the spirit of the world, but we received the Spirit that is from God so that we can know all that God has given us.
13 And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom but with words taught us by the Spirit. And so we explain spiritual truths to spiritual people.
14 A person who does not have the Spirit does not accept the truths that come from the Spirit of God. That person thinks they are foolish and cannot understand them, because they can only be judged to be true by the Spirit.
15 The spiritual person is able to judge all things, but no one can judge him. The Scripture says:
16 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been able to teach him?“ But we have the mind of Christ.
 

soberxp

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May 3, 2018
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1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (NCV)
12 Now we did not receive the spirit of the world, but we received the Spirit that is from God so that we can know all that God has given us.
13 And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom but with words taught us by the Spirit. And so we explain spiritual truths to spiritual people.
14 A person who does not have the Spirit does not accept the truths that come from the Spirit of God. That person thinks they are foolish and cannot understand them, because they can only be judged to be true by the Spirit.
15 The spiritual person is able to judge all things, but no one can judge him. The Scripture says:
16 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been able to teach him?“ But we have the mind of Christ.
you totally don't understand what I said,and
You're just saying you're saved, but the mind of Christ is to save all .
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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you totally don't understand what I said,and
You're just saying you're saved, but the mind of Christ is to save all .



Matthew 7:13-14 (NCV)
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. The gate is wide and the road is wide that leads to hell, and many people enter through that gate.
14 But the gate is small and the road is narrow that leads to true life. Only a few people find that road.


Matthew 7:16-24 (HCSB)
16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit.
Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them,I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on the rock.


Galatians 5:22-26 (HCSB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit.
26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
 

soberxp

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Matthew 7:13-14 (NCV)
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. The gate is wide and the road is wide that leads to hell, and many people enter through that gate.
14 But the gate is small and the road is narrow that leads to true life. Only a few people find that road.


Matthew 7:16-24 (HCSB)
16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit.
Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them,I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on the rock.


Galatians 5:22-26 (HCSB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit.
26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
only a few love all others, The rest hate this and love that, or they think I could be saved but others could not be saved.
 

GaryA

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I note that Robertson makes no mention whatsoever of the "chronology / sequence" issues... per Luke 21:12 [-24a] having "the desolation thereof [of Jerusalem]" taking place in the events surrounding 70ad (per Jesus' words elsewhere even--as I've pointed out in past posts--Matt22:7; Lk19:41-44; here in Lk21:23,20; Lk21:6/Mk13:2/Mt24:2; etc), which 70ad events according to v.12 come sequentially "BEFORE ALL these [before all these BoBPs spelled out in vv.8-11 (also in Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8)];

...whereas in Matthew 24, He starts out talking about the "BoBPs" and sequentially moves on to talk about the "A[singular]oD[singular]" that Daniel 12:11 speaks of, which is distinct from the "desolation thereof [of Jerusalem--in 70ad]" that occurs "BEFORE ALL THESE [BoBPs]," see...

Many people disregard these "sequence / chronology" issues in the Olivet Discourse. All they're doing instead is simply connecting similar wordings, lumping them together, but with no regard to what occurs "before" what other things... and the like...
It is good that you do not disregard the sequence issues; nonetheless, you are misinterpreting the Olivet Discourse with regard to what you are touching upon in the quote above.

In the 'grammar of the language', the flow of thought process in Matthew 24 is such that verse 9 is a continuation of verse 6 and not verse 8.

Matthew 24:7-8 / Mark 13:8 / Luke 21:10-11 is an 'aside' - the thought process temporarily "shifts" away from the verse before the aside and returns to the verse after the aside. These verses are distinctly separated from what is before and after it - whereby - what is after it is a continuation of what is before it.

I am "real big" on paying close attention to:

~ what happens before what
~ what happens after what
~ what happens at the same time as what

But you also have to pay very close attention to the 'grammar of the language'.

In terms of the flow of thought process, verse 9 does not "follow" verse 8.
 

GaryA

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Gary is right. The so-called great tribulation is really a period which has been misappropriated by
eschatology buffs, scholars, call them what you will, and bandied about with such repetition
and insouciance, that the actual simple and staightforward meaning and context have been
buried by the accumulations of stratified discourse.

Thus normally when we (people like Gary or myself) point it out, it goes straight over people's heads,
as the idea is now so alien to conventional thinking. It simply doesn't register because it can't register.

I am pleased that you have at least understood and registered what Gary has said. Bravo Ewq
If you are so inclined, take a look at the pages in the 'Study' section of my website - you may find them interesting...

(Of course, everyone is welcome to check them out.)
 

GaryA

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It is the theological bracketing and accepeted by historisists as the known label in debates.

They call themselves that

Historicist = preterist.
Somehow I just don't see this as being true.

The "label" of 'historicist' is entirely well-known-enough to stand on its own.

That last line is definitely not true.

There is a certain amount of 'overlap' in views; however, the two are not identically the same.
 

GaryA

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Have you read Revelation, realizing that most of it is LITERAL ? ? ?

Revelation 6:12 (NKJV)
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
Revelation 6:13-14 (NKJV)

13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
Revelation 6:13-14 (NKJV)

13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
{That is ALL LITERAL and it is ONLY the Beginning of the GREAT TRIBULATION, and that is how BAD THE EARTHQUAKE WILL BE.}


Colossians 1:16-17 (HCSB)
16 For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.


That is HOW BAD IT GETS the moment HE GETS ANGRY ENOUGH to LET GO OF HIS CREATION.

Literally a Hundred Times worse.

WHAT HAPPENS to the PEOPLE who are not Part of the RAPTURE? It tells us in the SAME CHAPTER of Revelation:

Revelation 6:15-17 (HCSB)
15 Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
17 because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?”

ALL OF THAT IS LITERAL, DOWN TO THE LAST DETAIL. NO ONE HAS EVEN TRIED TO HIDE HIMSELF IN CAVES FROM GOD, BUT THEY WILL.
I generally agree with what you are saying here - except - all of this occurs after the Great Tribulation (as Jesus defined/described it in Matthew 24) ends.