50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Well, we agree on ONE thing ^ , at least! 
... I *do* agree with you on this ^ point. = )
... I *do* agree with you on this ^ point. = )
[...however, I must say, that I disagree with your viewpoint that the "42 mos" equals "1260 years" ... especially because the text states "42 mos" and states "1260 days"]
... especially because the text states "42 mos" and states "1260 days"]
If it says [1260-day equivalent] in months, time/times, etc. - it is 1260 years.
And, yes - that means Revelation 11:2 is referring to 1260 years while Revelation 11:3 is referring to 1260 days.
Thanks Gary. Yes, I agree in general with what you are saying.
Some of prophecy is quite complex, some is simple. Some is very complex - to me.
Generally people stumble in the more complex areas, and then make a dog's dinner
out of the really straightforward things, in an effort to fit things into a strange schema that they have devised.
I guess it keeps the Theology Colleges in business, but I am not
sure it is what we were put on earth for.
Some of prophecy is quite complex, some is simple. Some is very complex - to me.
Generally people stumble in the more complex areas, and then make a dog's dinner
out of the really straightforward things, in an effort to fit things into a strange schema that they have devised.
I guess it keeps the Theology Colleges in business, but I am not
sure it is what we were put on earth for.
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It's one of those things that is complex, but not unfathomable. Once you understand it,
(which may mean allowing yourself to understand it, and often means having to rethink
all the carefully crafted oft disputed schemas you held so dear), then the mist can start to clear.
I am not sure that the Theology colleges are entirely faultless in this matter.
Daniel 12 And at that time [TIME OF THE LORD] shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
From the time there was a nation to the same time, when there was a nation.
I.E. From the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) existed as a nation,
to the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) exist as a nation.
That is to say for the best part of 2000 years.
(which may mean allowing yourself to understand it, and often means having to rethink
all the carefully crafted oft disputed schemas you held so dear), then the mist can start to clear.
I am not sure that the Theology colleges are entirely faultless in this matter.
Daniel 12 And at that time [TIME OF THE LORD] shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
From the time there was a nation to the same time, when there was a nation.
I.E. From the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) existed as a nation,
to the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) exist as a nation.
That is to say for the best part of 2000 years.
What you just quoted from the 6th Seal closely matches what Jesus said would happen after the tribulation:
Matthew 24:29
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
A deeper study reveals that Jesus was also quoting Isaiah here:
Isaiah 13:9-13
9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Isaiah 34:4
4All the stars of heaven will be dissolved.
The skies will be rolled up like a scroll,
and all their stars will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like foliage from the fig tree.
And Joel:
Joel 2:10
10Before them the earth quakes;
the heavens tremble.
The sun and moon grow dark,
All elements that are present between Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 are in Isaiah. This isn't an accident as the New Testament writers would have been very familiar with this sort of apocalyptic language: stars, sun, moon, heavens trembling and rolling up like a scroll, an earthquake, and even reference to the fig tree.
Matthew 24:29
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
A deeper study reveals that Jesus was also quoting Isaiah here:
Isaiah 13:9-13
9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Isaiah 34:4
4All the stars of heaven will be dissolved.
The skies will be rolled up like a scroll,
and all their stars will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like foliage from the fig tree.
And Joel:
Joel 2:10
10Before them the earth quakes;
the heavens tremble.
The sun and moon grow dark,
All elements that are present between Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 are in Isaiah. This isn't an accident as the New Testament writers would have been very familiar with this sort of apocalyptic language: stars, sun, moon, heavens trembling and rolling up like a scroll, an earthquake, and even reference to the fig tree.
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FreeGrace2 said:
The time of the "twinkling of the eye" and our "being changed" per 1 Cor 15:52 isn't given. So it could be just before the believer's feet leave ground. Or it may be when they meet Jesus in the air (clouds).
What is clear from all the passages, living believers will meet the Lord "in the AIR" and "clouds". So there will be air. But that isn't the issue at all.
When Jesus gathers up the living believers, He isn't limited by earth's gravitation, temperature or oxygen levels. The change is clearly in the air.
The time of the "twinkling of the eye" and our "being changed" per 1 Cor 15:52 isn't given. So it could be just before the believer's feet leave ground. Or it may be when they meet Jesus in the air (clouds).
What is clear from all the passages, living believers will meet the Lord "in the AIR" and "clouds". So there will be air. But that isn't the issue at all.
When Jesus gathers up the living believers, He isn't limited by earth's gravitation, temperature or oxygen levels. The change is clearly in the air.
FreeGrace2 said:
Please explain what Paul meant in 2 Thess 2:1-3.
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Thanks.
Because the entire thrust of a pretrib rapture is the trip to heaven after being resurrected or raptured.
Well, that was quite clear! But I'm always sad when professing believers have such a poor attitude towards Scripture that refutes them.
It isn't baloney. Those 3 verses are the TRUTH and they REFUTE your doctrine completely.
Sure are. There have been about 6,000 years of saints who have DIED. Where else do you think they would be? Or are you one of those who hold to the weird doctrine of soul sleep?
Saints in heaven does not even closely support any pretrib rapture. It does support the physical deaths of believers since Adam.
If you only want to focus on the Bride of Christ, well, there's 2,00 years of deaths of them as well.
Please explain what Paul meant in 2 Thess 2:1-3.
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Thanks.
Because the entire thrust of a pretrib rapture is the trip to heaven after being resurrected or raptured.
Well, that was quite clear! But I'm always sad when professing believers have such a poor attitude towards Scripture that refutes them.
It isn't baloney. Those 3 verses are the TRUTH and they REFUTE your doctrine completely.
Sure are. There have been about 6,000 years of saints who have DIED. Where else do you think they would be? Or are you one of those who hold to the weird doctrine of soul sleep?
Saints in heaven does not even closely support any pretrib rapture. It does support the physical deaths of believers since Adam.
If you only want to focus on the Bride of Christ, well, there's 2,00 years of deaths of them as well.
You said not to ignore scripture, and soul sleep is wrong.
Ecc 9:
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
1Th 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Ecc 9:
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
1Th 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
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Why did the Jews miss the first coming of Jesus?
Will History repeat itself?
History is there if you are willing to search for answers.
Futurism is an invention of Jesuits and pretribulation rapture was invented to make it work.
If you search up where and why Futurism come from you'll realise it is not from God.
Or you can close your eyes and ignore history.
Will History repeat itself?
History is there if you are willing to search for answers.
Futurism is an invention of Jesuits and pretribulation rapture was invented to make it work.
If you search up where and why Futurism come from you'll realise it is not from God.
Or you can close your eyes and ignore history.
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