50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[TheDivineWatermark]

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ONE is how it appeared in it's early stages, and Mat 24:21-31 is how it appeared much later on. SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN ? ? ?

Runningman is the one who believes that "moon into blood / moon became as blood" (6th Seal) is at the same point in time as Matt24:29-31 "moon shall not give her light" (AFTER the tribulation of THOSE days)...

*I* do NOT believe they are speaking of the same point in time, like he does... I am making the point (as you are) that these are distinct, and occur at DIFFERENT times, not at the SAME time, like Runningman believes...

That IS NOT A CONTRADICTION, how ridiculous is your conclusion.

I'm not saying they "contradict"...

... I'm saying the "6th Seal" is not "AFTER the tribulation of THOSE days [i.e. AFTER the "GREAT tribulation"/last half of the trib consisting of 1260 days leading up to His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19, thus "AFTER" that--NO, these are not speaking of the SAME event nor time-slot]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ The SEALS are equivalent to "the BEGINNING of birth pangs," and much MORE must unfold upon the earth before His "RETURN to the earth" point in time Rev19 (when the Matt24:29-31 [/Isa27:12-13] will take place)...

...and not merely something like "2 wks" spans that time frame, between the 6th Seal "moon INTO BLOOD" and His "RETURN to the earth" at Rev19. No.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

...and not merely something like "2 wks" spans that time frame, between the 6th Seal "moon INTO BLOOD" and His "RETURN to the earth" at Rev19. No.

...and not merely something like "2 wks" spans that time frame, between the 6th Seal "moon INTO BLOOD" and His "RETURN to the earth" at Rev19. No. Much more time than that.

(...between the "BEFORE the GREAT" aspect OF it [Joel 2:31 / Rev6:12]; and the "AFTER" the GREAT aspect OF it [Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13 / Rev19]... spans over 3.5 YEARS' time )

 

[cv5]

antichrist is a NT term. In the NT that person is not said to uproot any of the ten horns of the Revelation 13:1 beast. It keeps all of the ten horns until the entire beast is destroyed.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

All ten horns will receive power to be kings the full hour which is the 42 months so that proves no horns are uprooted.

The Coming World Leader — commonly known as the Antichrist — has 33 titles in the Old Testament and 13 in the New Testament. One of these, The Prince That Shall Come, comes from Daniel 9:26–27.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

One of these, The Prince That Shall Come, comes from Daniel 9:26–27.

Right.

Which means that his "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia]" aspect is at the START of the 7 yrs (2Th2:9a/8a/3b; Dan9:27a [26b]), NOT at its MIDDLE (2Th2:4; Dan27:b) when only 3.5 yrs are yet remaining, as many suppose...

 

[ewq1938]

The change is clearly in the air.

The change is on the Earth in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump before the rapture happens.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[ewq1938]

Why did the Jews miss the first coming of Jesus?

They didn't miss it. The tended not to like him during that first coming.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Wrong. In 2Thess 2:1-3 Paul is specifically speaking of a single event, which is the "coming of our Lord" which will occur on a SINGLE DAY, also with "our being gathered up to Him" when He comes.

Read carefully. I said "in chapter 2" (the chapter)

I don't care about "the chapter". You know well that the only issue is what 2:1-3 teaches. You keep wanting to ignore these very clear verses that plainly say that the "gathering up" to Him is WHEN Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

V.3 does not have the words "that day" (recall, they are in italics in some versions, indicating that they are added--IOW, not present in the TEXT in the Greek); however, v.3 does have the negation, referring specifically to the Subject of v.2, which DOES speak of a "spans of time" that it was claimed to be "ALREADY HERE / ALREADY PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]".

You're not going to worm your way out of this lame excuse to ignore v.1-3.

Paul begins with the Second Coming (the coming of our Lord). Do you agree or disagree with this.

In v.2 Paul notes the "day of the Lord" has not come". This OBVIOUSLY refers back to v.1, which would be the FIRST day in THAT time span.

In v.3, 12 of 27 translations on biblehub.com have "that day", and most of them are in italics. That means the scholars who translated the passage understood what was MEANT. You can argue with Greek scholars all you want. I don't care. But unless you have more credentials than Greek scholars who are involved in translating the Koine Greek to English, you have no right to dogmatically claim that v.3 doesn't refer to "the coming of our Lord" in v.1.

[QUOE]The phrase "the DOTL" speaks of an earthly-located time-period... as you know... [/QUOTE]
I'm tired of this empty argument. As I have noted before, the DOTL begins at a specific DATE. Got it? Whether you agree or not, makes no difference to the obvious common sense understanding that the single subject of the Second Advent is being discussed in v.1-3.

and 1Th5:2-3 tells of its ARRIVAL... which is LIKE the INITIAL "birth pang [singular]" that COMES UPON and woman... of the ones Jesus Himself spoke of, which are also parallel the SEALS at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c]" time period (i.e. 7-yr Trib, so at the START of that), in every way consistent...

2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

These 2 verses are clearly speaking of the FIRST SPECIFIC DAY of the DOTL. Which is what 2 Thess 2:1-3 are also about.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The change is on the Earth in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump before the rapture happens.

Let's see what the Bible says about it.

1 Thess 4- {the FAMOUS rapture passage}
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Cot 15- {another FAMOUS rapture verse}
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—

52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Red words refer to the dead saints who come with Jesus, and their physical bodies resurrected into imperishable bodies.

Blue words refer to the living saints who will "meet the dead saints in the air".

Note from 1 Thess 4:16 that the dead will be resurrected BEFORE the living will be changed.

There is nothing about action taking place ON EARTH. It all occurs IN THE AIR and IN THE CLOUDS. 1 Thess 4:17 says so.

 

[ewq1938]

"moon into blood" / "moon became as blood" (BEFORE the GREAT aspect) does NOT equal "moon shall not give her light" (AFTER the GREAT aspect)...

When you are in court and go before a judge, does that mean you were there a day before the judge was or does it mean you are facing the judge? That is what this verse means:


Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Are you sure it says "before"? Did you know that the English
word "before" has two meanings, and they are completely different from
each other?

Let's focus on Joel:





Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into
blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.


6440

06440 paniym {paw-neem'} pl. (but always as sing.) of an unused
noun [paneh{paw-neh'}

from 06437; TWOT - 1782a; n m

AV - before 1137, face 390, presence 76, because 67, sight 40,
countenance 30, from 27, person 21, upon 20, of 20, ...me 18,
against 17, ...him 16, open 13, for 13, toward 9, misc 195; 2109

1) face
1a) face, faces
1b) presence, person
1c) face (of seraphim or cherubim)
1d) face (of animals)
1e) face, surface (of ground)
1f) as adv of loc/temp
1f1) before and behind, toward, in front of, forward, formerly,
from beforetime, before
1g) with prep
1g1) in front of, before, to the front of, in the presence of,
in the face of, at the face or front of, from the presence
of,
from before, from before the face of


This means to come BEFORE a judge which would be at that very time, right in front, or to FACE a judge.

Here is the same word being used, and its clear it is not "before" as in
previous


Ezekiel 43:24 And thou shalt offer them BEFORE the LORD, and the priests
shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt
offering unto the LORD.


That means to offer them TO the lord, or TO his FACE, which means to
come to him directly and offer. Same word and meaning in Joel.







Haggai 2:15 And now, I pray you, consider from this day and upward, from
BEFORE a stone was laid upon a stone in the temple of the LORD:




2962

02962 terem {teh'-rem}

from an unused root apparently meaning to interrupt or suspend;
TWOT - 826; prep

AV - before, ere, not yet, neither; 9

1) before, not yet, before that



Here's a different word in the Hebrew. This is the word you want Joel to be
using, but he isnt using this word.

this is what he is saying


Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into
blood, WHEN the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

This would be exactly what Joel is trying to convey.

 

[ewq1938]

There is nothing about action taking place ON EARTH. It all occurs IN THE AIR and IN THE CLOUDS. 1 Thess 4:17 says so.

That verse addresses the rapture not the changing into immortals. That happens on Earth and when that is completed they will be raptured upwards. Another example of this same basic order is found in Revelation 11 with the two prophets.


The dead where they are at will resurrect there, and then will travel to the clouds.
The living where they are at will change there, and then will travel to the clouds.

Neither the resurrection nor the changing happens in the air.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is nothing about action taking place ON EARTH. It all occurs IN THE AIR and IN THE CLOUDS. 1 Thess 4:17 says so.

That verse addresses the rapture not the changing into immortals. That happens on Earth and when that is completed they will be raptured upwards.

I proved the opposite by comparing 2 passages; 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15. You didn't address them. Looks like you are ignoring them.

Some people just won't be convinced by facts.

Another example of this same basic order is found in Revelation 11 with the two prophets.

Do you really think they were raptured into imperishable bodies? Why?

The dead where they are at will resurrect there, and then will travel to the clouds.

Again, you are simply misreading the 2 passages I provided. In 1 Thess 4, it clearly says the dead in Christ came with Him. If that's not clear to you, I understand why you are so confused about things.

The living where they are at will change there, and then will travel to the clouds.

And, just like the pretribbers, you have no verses that support your theories.

Neither the resurrection nor the changing happens in the air.

My post proved the opposite. The passages you won't address. Your bias is transparent.

 

[cv5]

If God can cause the last plague to not effect those that obeyed Him in Egypt. He can cause the last plagues to not hurt His faithful. We can go through the trouble with Jesus, we don't need to be taken away.

What in the world are we talking about now? There is nothing in the book of Revelation that indicates that Tribulation Saints are protected in any way whatsoever. The only Persons who are enjoying the specific divine seal of protection are the 144,000 Israelites and the Two Witnesses.

 

[cv5]

Let the reader notice...

...at the opening of VCO's Post, he quoted from Revelation 6:12 "moon became as blood" which corresponds with Joel 2:31's "moon into blood, BEFORE the GREAT..." (BEFORE the "GREAT" ASPECT OF IT [note: not before the DOTL in its ENTIRETY]);



...but the verses that Runningman provided (in quote above) do not correspond, as he selected the verses corresponding (instead) with:
"moon shall not give her light" (Matt24:21-31), and that is "AFTER the tribulation of those days" (which is the SAME as saying AFTER the "GREAT" ASPECT OF IT), which not only is DESCRIBING this in a very distinct way, but is shown to occur at completely distinct time-slots.




So, NO... these do NOT "closely match"... unless one is totally colorblind, and completely disregards the "timing" clues provided in some of the verses...

(Joel 2:31 = Rev6:12... the others DO NOT)

They only match if you don't know what you're talking about and have a vivid imagination. ....

 

[cv5]

View attachment 228569


ONE is how it appeared in it's early stages, and Mat 24:21-31 is how it appeared much later on. SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN ? ? ?
The Sun is RUNNING OUT OF FUEL, period. That IS NOT A CONTRADICTION, how ridiculous is your conclusion.

Can the CREATOR of the UNIVERSE, create enough fuel to replenish the Sun for another 1000 years? YES HE CAN.

Fuel? Like nuclear fuel?

I thought everyone knew that the sun is fundamentally electromagnetic in nature. All stars are plasmoids in arc mode. Gravity is nothing more than non-point source dielectric acceleration.

There are no such things as particles such as photons or electrons.

ALL of the present day "standard models" are completely useless rubbish.

 

[VCO]

Let's see what the Bible says about it.

1 Thess 4- {the FAMOUS rapture passage}
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Cot 15- {another FAMOUS rapture verse}
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—

52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Red words refer to the dead saints who come with Jesus, and their physical bodies resurrected into imperishable bodies.

Blue words refer to the living saints who will "meet the dead saints in the air".

Note from 1 Thess 4:16 that the dead will be resurrected BEFORE the living will be changed.

There is nothing about action taking place ON EARTH. It all occurs IN THE AIR and IN THE CLOUDS. 1 Thess 4:17 says so.

Do you know what is the biggest difference between being Mortal and what is makes IMMORTAL is ? ? ?

NO BLOOD IN THE IMMORTAL BODY.



Colossians 3:4 (ESV)
4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. {<--That is HEAVEN!}

1 Timothy 3:16 (ESV)
16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

1 Corinthians 15:50-53 (HCSB)
50 Brothers, I tell you this: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
51 Listen! I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
53 For this corruptible must be clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal must be clothed with immortality.

1 John 5:11 (NIV)
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

 

[ewq1938]

Do you know what is the biggest difference between being Mortal and what is makes IMMORTAL is ? ? ?

NO BLOOD IN THE IMMORTAL BODY.

What is in the immortal body?

 

[GaryA]

A church going through the trib is impossible as the ac kills all refusing the mark.

Why exactly does that make it impossible???

 

[GaryA]

Let the reader notice...

...at the opening of VCO's Post, he quoted from Revelation 6:12 "moon became as blood" which corresponds with Joel 2:31's "moon into blood, BEFORE the GREAT..." (BEFORE the "GREAT" ASPECT OF IT [note: not before the DOTL in its ENTIRETY]);



...but the verses that Runningman provided (in quote above) do not correspond, as he selected the verses corresponding (instead) with:
"moon shall not give her light" (Matt24:21-31), and that is "AFTER the tribulation of those days" (which is the SAME as saying AFTER the "GREAT" ASPECT OF IT), which not only is DESCRIBING this in a very distinct way, but is shown to occur at completely distinct time-slots.




So, NO... these do NOT "closely match"... unless one is totally colorblind, and completely disregards the "timing" clues provided in some of the verses...

(Joel 2:31 = Rev6:12... the others DO NOT)

Your "great aspect" idea is invented.

That is not what scripture says.

Not even close.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TDW: The phrase "the DOTL" speaks of an earthly-located time-period... as you know...

I'm tired of this empty argument. As I have noted before, the DOTL begins at a specific DATE. Got it?

Of course it starts on a specific date... the date that is tied to when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6; 2Th2:[7b-]8a in parallel language to Lam2:3-4 [in a context of "wrath" words] "...he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob LIKE a FLAMING FIRE..."), at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period [per Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c], when HE will open the FIRST SEAL (identical to the INITIAL "birth PANG" of "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus also spoke of in His Olivet Discourse)

--compare the time-period in 2Th1:7-8's "in flaming fire, TAKING VENGEANCE ON them that...," which is the same time period when "GOD shall SEND TO THEM great delusion, THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" 2Th2:10-12 (neither of these referring to the last 24-hr day of the Trib yrs)... also being the same "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period [Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c; same time period mentioned also in Lk18:8 "AVENGE in quickness [noun]"; and Rom16:20 "CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET in quickness [noun]"--none of which is taking place "in this present age [singular]"...we are yet awaiting the time WHEN Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" at the START of the 7 Trib yrs--rather than commencing only upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19]);

--referring likewise to the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" [and 'NIGHT WATCHES'] time period, in which the "man of sin" will exist and do ALL he is slated to DO over the course of those 7 years ("IN HIS TIME")



Verse 2 is Paul basically saying not to be persuaded by anyone claiming "that the day of the Lord IS ALREADY HERE / IS ALREADY PRESENT [PERFECT tense]"

...and in v.3 supplies the negation to such a claim, by saying (about that time period),

..."NOT shall be present, if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [Paul's v.1 Subject that HE is bringing to the FORE], and the man of sin be revealed..." (at the START of the 7-yrs, just as all related passages also show this to be).






In today's language, ...[v.3] no man, the 7-yr period OF JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING [from v.2's false claim contents] will not be HERE / PRESENT on the earth, if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE / RAPTURE [v.1] FIRST [ONE THING *FIRST*], and the man of sin revealed... BY Jesus' OPENING of THE FIRST SEAL at the START of those 7 years... Those two items are the evidences, if it were a true claim "that the day of the Lord IS ALREADY HERE / IS ALREADY PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"



"the DOTL":
--earthly-located time period
--INITIATED by JUDGMENTs unfolding (before the BLESSINGs aspect of it then also will unfold in the MK age) [Jesus: "STAND to JUDGE"]
--the "IN THE NIGHT" / "DARK" / "DARKNESS" [and "NIGHT WATCHES"] time frame, in which "the man of sin" will exist and do all he is slated to do over the course of those 7 yrs... [before the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" takes place at His Second Coming to the earth Rev19, i.e. His "RETURN"--Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal (G347)--IOW, He'll not be coming AT THAT point to "MARRY" 10 or 5 Virgins [PLURAL]"... He will be BRINGING "WITH [G4862 -UNIONed-WITH] Him" the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]"... down to the earth, where the 10 Virgins will still be located, 5 of whom will ENTER the MK age "with [G3326 - accompanying] Him"... that is, to the wedding FEAST (not "the MARRIAGE" itself which will have already been concluded by this point)]



We simply are not going to agree on its "starting point".