50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Thewatchman

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PART 2 RAPTURE BIBLICA or FALSE DOCTRON​

New Testament Matthew 13:24-30 Parable of the wheat and tares​


24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: What do we know about this man? He sowed good seed. 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. Why was the enemy able to slip in and sow the bad seed, the tares? The men, that would be the watchman were asleep and watching in order to sound the alarm. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The rest of this I am not going to explain because Jesus explains it in verses 36-43

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36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. The disciples themselves did not understand.37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; So Jesus is the man with the good seed.38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; This verse is very important because it has a key to unlock the symbology that Jesus uses here and else where. The field is the world. The good seed is not wheat but; if I offend any one here I am sorry but the truth is the truth. Seed as used here is sperma male sperm in the Greek. We are not talking about wheat and tares. We are talking about the offspring of Jesus and the offspring of Satan. I like to use sports analogies so here goes. There are only 2 teams on a football field, there are only 2 teams on the field of the world, the children of Jesus and the children of Satan. You will be on one team or the other there are no spectators, there is not a 3rd or 4th team. You are either with Jesus or with Satan period end of story. 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. If the Good seed is the wheat which represents the children of God “Jesus”; The harvest is the end of the world. Where does that leave the rapture? Jesus tells you WITH THE REAPERS. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. So if you want to follow Satan and be a child of Satan and be gathered by the reapers that is up to you. ( we will get into more of this later in part 3) 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. If you are a child of the kingdom you have nothing to worry about. The book of Danial tells us about 3 Hebrew children that refused to bow to the kings wishes; they were thrown into a fiery furnaces heated seven times hotter than normal. Killed the people putting in the firewood. What did the king ask? How many did we put in there his wise men answered 3 the king replied why do I see 4 and one looks like the Son of Man. Jesus was right their with them not a hair on their head was singed. Jesus takes care of His own. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. That is the way it will happen. No rapture.
I tried to read this, but unfortunately it needs a little editing. It looks like the body of your personal commentary is mixing with the cited scripture. Please see if you can add some line breaks just to separate your own words from the scripture.
It is I will try and make it clearer
 

ewq1938

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Stop prattling please.

Stop prattling please. I suggested that 2 Thessalonians 2 might already have been
fulfilled in the first Century, and you compared me to ISIS (a 'literal spiritual terrorist').
I have no idea what that accusation means - maybe you think I burn religious texts, I have no idea.
Please clarify.

I then suggested that maybe it is you who treats the text less than reverently,
since you have built a theology around The Antichrist and The future 7 year Tribulation (aka TGT),
of which neither expression actually appears in Thessalonians.
I am correct in saying this as you then invented a false charge - of a logical fallacy.

However, I am not saying that because Paul does not mention them they therefore don't exist.
That would be the logical fallacy you are trying to reference here.

I am saying that if they exist in the form you propose, you are making a
leap in imposing them on his words.
And indeed, if you cannot substantiate what you are saying, it becomes a very irreverent treatment of the text, although I hesitate to use the incendiary and polarizing language you are wont to use.
 

ewq1938

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The Greeks had a word for "fall"... "G4098 piptó" like is used in Rev9:1 "...and I saw a star fall [G4098] from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given..." ... and yes, I see this as a "negative" (esp. per that context)... but the word under discussion (in 2Th2:3) is not that word.

Again, the FIRST SEVEN ENGLISH translations had it as "a departure"/"a departing," well before the kjv (1600s) ever even existed... and the Latin Vulgate (400s), in this verse, had the Latin word "discessio" which means "departure".

So it is not "pre-tribbers" who've changed it, see. ;)]

Wrong. It is pre-tribbers who change the word from it's true meaning of a departure from a religious belief to a physical departure which the word does not mean and has never meant. Pretrib is not in the bible so changes like this must be made so they can seem to have support for their view.
 

ewq1938

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Claiming that every single born-again elect Christian in the world becomes apostate......is absurd on its face.
And what is more absurd is the one who created that concept...which is YOU. You are the only one speaking about "all" or "every single" Christian becoming an apostate. No one else believes that or has said it. It doesn't come from the bible nor from anyone here except you. It's a strawman fallacy you created.
 

GaryA

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View attachment 228778

No his eschatology is dead on, and yours is in error. How do I know that he has it RIGHT ? ? ?

Matthew 20:16 (NASB)
16 "So the last shall be first, and the first last."

That certainly applies to Covenants.

Therefore the 70th Week of Daniel, all about ISRAEL, is about to begin; but we have to be Called to Heaven, for the Wedding of the LAMB, first.
The 70th week of Daniel, all about Israel, has already been 100% fulfilled - directly after the 69th week - as part of an unbroken span of 490 years.

The wedding of the Lamb will not occur until Christ returns - at the Second Coming of Christ.
 

randyk

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There WILL be legitimate believing born-again Christians at the twilight. Right up to the split second before the DOTL is ushered in. Case closed.

Your theory demands that EVERY born-again Christian in the world suddenly becomes totally apostate. Total wholesale complete capitulation and utter apostasy. Absolutely impossible. The Church is victorious right to the end it doesn't curl up in a ball, desiccate and die.
You must be arguing with someone else. My position *does not* demand anything like what you're claiming. What on earth is it you think I'm saying?
 

cv5

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You must be arguing with someone else. My position *does not* demand anything like what you're claiming. What on earth is it you think I'm saying?
Probably doesn't mean much considering that you believe Christians actually go through the time of the wrath of the Lamb. Whatever you think of this so-called apostasy is going to be wrong.
 

GaryA

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I SUSPECT, You will see the Abomination of Desolation begin LIVE on every TV NEWS.

WE WILL NOT BE THERE! We will be in the attendance at the WEDDING of CHRIST in Heaven.


My turn to ask a question.

Explain the details of how one becomes Born Again ? ? ?
I am quite sure they did not have TV back in 167 B.C. - and, I was not there then.

Since you seem to think that I am 100% wrong (and from the devil, because my eschatology is different than yours?) and that you are 100% right, why don't you tell me...?

(I have been on a short vacation and now have 10 pages of catching up to do - just on this one thread. I don't have time for any "game playing tactics"...)
 

GaryA

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I believe there will be large-scale apostasy taking place in the church prior to the revealing of the anti-Christ. Of course this won't happen overnight, but I think apostasy will reach a critical mass, so to speak, where enough "salt and light" of the world will be removed to give way to moral and spiritual decay not seen since the days of Noah.
We may have already reached that point... :(
 

GaryA

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Trumpets five, six and seven are WOE trumpets of severe judgment. Not a happy time and not a happy place. With seven bowl judgments to go......you know the ones you ignored.

The seventh trumpet of Rev is definitely NOT the 1 Cor 15:52 & 1 Thes 4:16 trumpet of victorious joyful assembly.

You do err.....grievously.
The "victorious joyful assembly" you are referring to is the redeemed - who go through a transformation "at the last trump" - never to be hindered by sin or the wicked ever again...

The Bible does not apply the same 'joy' to the [whole] world.
 

GaryA

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Why are people unable to distinguish what is for salvation ("the last trump") and what is for damnation (the 7th trumpet)? The trouble is that when sound doctrine is presented, it is rejected out of hand by those who have no clue. It is about time that some said "I am clueless. I need to be a learner".
Why are people unable to see that it is about both - salvation for the elect and damnation for the wicked - at the same time - at the Second Coming of Christ?

The trouble is that when sound doctrine is presented, it is rejected out of hand by those who choose to believe in the doctrines of men ([historical] well-known preachers, who have taught erroneous doctrine) rather than what the Bible plainly says.

It is high time that some said:

"I need to swallow my pride, learn how to 'suspend' everything I think I know about the topic, and learn how to study the Bible without allowing the things I have "learned" in the past prevent me from seeing the truth of what the Bible actually says."
 

GaryA

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Rev 14

Factor in that gathering that happens DURING THE TRIB.

Hint....it is neither the rapture/main harvest or the second coming

The bible destroys most of mans doctrine
Guess again...

Revelation 14:14-20 is most definitely post-trib.

And, verses 14-16 are referring to the rapture - at the Second Coming of Christ.

The Bible destroys all of man's doctrine.
 

ewq1938

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Why are people unable to see that it is about both - salvation for the elect and damnation for the wicked - at the same time - at the Second Coming of Christ?

Because both of those things don't happen at the second coming. Salvation and immortality happens at the second coming but "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years has ended" proves that damnation is a long time after the second coming. Even Satan isn't destroyed at the second coming since he is imprisoned.
 

randyk

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Probably doesn't mean much considering that you believe Christians actually go through the time of the wrath of the Lamb. Whatever you think of this so-called apostasy is going to be wrong.
Yes, I do believe Christians are here to the end, with probably many experiencing wrath--not as directed at them, but only because they happen to share the world with those who are unworthy. There will be Christians who are "alive and remain" till the coming of the Lord.
 

VCO

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The 70th week of Daniel, all about Israel, has already been 100% fulfilled - directly after the 69th week - as part of an unbroken span of 490 years.

The wedding of the Lamb will not occur until Christ returns - at the Second Coming of Christ.
You do not know the foggiest about the Wedding of the Lamb.

I already have my invite to go to Heaven for the Wedding of the Lamb. It is in my heart, and it was put their by the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps you did not get an invite.

1 Corinthians 2:7-16 (NIV)
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"--
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.


More and More and More Jews now believe in the MESSIAH Jesus Christ, and most of them are from ISRAEL, an most of them now believes it is in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Such as This site:
A Brief Examination of the Rapture
https://www.rabdavis.org/a-brief-examination-of-the-rapture/


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https://www.christianevidence.net/2017/10/pre-trib-rapture-evidence-top-10.html
 

GaryA

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But the Apostasy cannot take place unless people stop worshipping Christ and begin to worship ... { [anything else] }
Nothing special is required (in 'event' terms) for an apostacy - people can do that on their own...

Do you not think there is an apostacy going on in the world right now???
 

ewq1938

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Nothing special is required (in 'event' terms) for an apostacy - people can do that on their own...

Do you not think there is an apostacy going on in the world right now???
The "falling away" event is a large group of Christians falling away at the same time and is directly associated with the man of sin.
 

GaryA

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That's when "the DOTL" time period *arrives* to unfold upon the earth (aka the commencing of the 7 Trib yrs), not His "RETURN" to the earth that OldSage and I are discussing presently. Just so you know. = )
The DOTL is two things:

1) A 1000 year period of time.
2) The first [24-hour] day of that [very same] 1000 year period of time.

#1 is the 1000-year reign of Christ.
#2 is the [very same] day that Christ appears. (the 'Second Coming of Christ')