50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Absolutely

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That is quite incorrect. Salvation is NOT a covenant. Either you do not understand covenants or you don't understand salvation.

Salvation is by grace. Eph 2:8. That means man has no part in providing God's salvation. All man can do is receive it as a free gift.

A covenant is an agreement between 2 people; each one has obligations to fulfill.
that is universalism.

Everyone is saved. I do nothing because the blood was shed for all.

Hard to believe you do not understand SALVATION is a COVENANT???????
ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
 

FreeGrace2

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G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.
Total KJV occurrences: 23

I looked up every use of this word. I didn't see it refer to anyone unsaved. Judas is not called this term.
John 6:70 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

eklegó: to select
Original Word: ἐκλέγομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eklegó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-leg'-om-ahee)
Definition: to select
Usage: I pick out for myself, choose, elect, select.

The Greek word "eklego" is the word used throughout the NT for electing.

Judas was elected as the betrayer. Again, an election to service. Such as it was.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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The word used for Judas ("hath not I CHOSEN you twelve, and one of you is a devil" Jn6:70) is G1586 (eklegó - verb),
same word as used in the following passages:

John 15:16 V-AIM-1S
GRK: ἀλλ' ἐγὼ ἐξελεξάμην ὑμᾶς καὶ
NAS: You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed
KJV: but I have chosen you, and
INT: but I chose you and

John 15:19 V-AIM-1S
GRK: ἀλλ' ἐγὼ ἐξελεξάμην ὑμᾶς ἐκ
NAS: you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world,
KJV: but I have chosen you out of
INT: but I chose you out of

[...]
1 Corinthians 1:27 V-AIM-3S
GRK: τοῦ κόσμου ἐξελέξατο ὁ θεός
NAS: but God has chosen the foolish things
KJV: God hath chosen the foolish things
INT: of the world chose God

1 Corinthians 1:27 V-AIM-3S
GRK: τοῦ κόσμου ἐξελέξατο ὁ θεός
NAS: and God has chosen the weak things
KJV: God hath chosen the weak things
INT: of the world chose God

1 Corinthians 1:28 V-AIM-3S
GRK: τὰ ἐξουθενημένα ἐξελέξατο ὁ θεός
NAS: God has chosen, the things that are not, so
KJV: God chosen, [yea], and
INT: the despised chose God

Ephesians 1:4 V-AIM-3S
GRK: καθὼς ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν
NAS: just as He chose us in Him before
KJV: According as he hath chosen us in
INT: as he chose us in



____________

EDIT to add:

I see FrGr2 has beat me to it! :D
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
That is quite incorrect. Salvation is NOT a covenant. Either you do not understand covenants or you don't understand salvation.

Salvation is by grace. Eph 2:8. That means man has no part in providing God's salvation. All man can do is receive it as a free gift.

A covenant is an agreement between 2 people; each one has obligations to fulfill.
that is universalism.
Universalism is simply that Jesus will save everyone.

So please explain how Eph 2:8 teaches universalism, or whatever you think is universalism in my post. Because it's just not there.

Everyone is saved. I do nothing because the blood was shed for all.
Yes, His blood WAS shed for everyone. But that doesn't save anyone. Obviously you don't understand salvation.

One must believe (trust) in the work of Christ on the cross for savlation. That isn't a work. But God's work of GRACE.

Hard to believe you do not understand SALVATION is a COVENANT???????
OK, if you are correct, please explain what man's part is in salvation then.

ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
OK, got me. I had a brain cloud. I was thinking of the two way covenants. I should have said there are two way covenants and one way covenants, and salvation is a one way covenant.

But know this: Christ's paying the sin debt for everyone is true and doesn't save anyone. We are saved by grace through faith, as Eph 2:8 says.

Man does nothing for the free gift of eternal life. He merely receives it by faith.
 

ewq1938

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John 6:70 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

eklegó: to select
Original Word: ἐκλέγομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eklegó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-leg'-om-ahee)
Definition: to select
Usage: I pick out for myself, choose, elect, select.

The Greek word "eklego" is the word used throughout the NT for electing.

Judas was elected as the betrayer. Again, an election to service. Such as it was.
That is a different word that means to select but is not the word used for the saved elect.
 

cv5

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FreeGrace2 said:
Actually, Jesus specifically noted that he chose 9elected) Judas. John 6:70,71. Election is to service, not to salvation.

I know. But too many believers mistakenly think "elect" means saved people in every verse. It doesn't. People need to be told or reminded of what the word actually refers to.

Yes, I agree that Matt 24 refers to saved people. Only saved people.
Another interesting perspective on election is that of a master selecting slaves from the slave market. I think practically every single New Testament writer identified themselves as a doulos.

Doulos = slave. The translators softened it up a bit as bondslave (and softened it up even more as "servant") but actually slave is more appropriate.
 

FreeGrace2

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Another interesting perspective on election is that of a master selecting slaves from the slave market. I think practically every single New Testament writer identified themselves as a doulos.
Wow! Another evidence that election is for service, and not salvation. Thanks.
 

cv5

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Wow! Another evidence that election is for service, and not salvation. Thanks.
Don't get me wrong I think election is absolutely necessary for salvation. Along with being foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified.
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Wow! Another evidence that election is for service, and not salvation. Thanks.
Don't get me wrong I think election is absolutely necessary for salvation. Along with being foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified.
Actually, it is salvation that is necessary for election.

Though, it can easily be argued that what is necessary for salvation is belief in Christ. And that God chooses believers for salvation.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Clearly God made a choice here. And it pleased Him.

iow, God chooses to save those who believe.
 

cv5

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FreeGrace2 said:
Wow! Another evidence that election is for service, and not salvation. Thanks.

Actually, it is salvation that is necessary for election.

Though, it can easily be argued that what is necessary for salvation is belief in Christ. And that God chooses believers for salvation.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Clearly God made a choice here. And it pleased Him.

iow, God chooses to save those who believe.
I happen to lean toward election first because I believe God is the prime mover of all things.......including salvation. Salvation is a creation event and God is the creator of all things. God ALWAYS takes initiative per Romans 5:8. We have no explicable part to play in our own rebirth per John 3.

Nevertheless I think both are true in ways that are only understandable in the mind of God. Not our problem. Both are biblical and must be accepted. Preaching has gone out in all the world and all men are responsible to make a choice.
 

Absolutely

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I happen to lean toward election first because I believe God is the prime mover of all things.......including salvation. Salvation is a creation event and God is the creator of all things. God ALWAYS takes initiative per Romans 5:8. We have no explicable part to play in our own rebirth per John 3.

Nevertheless I think both are true in ways that are only understandable in the mind of God. Not our problem. Both are biblical and must be accepted. Preaching has gone out in all the world and all men are responsible to make a choice.
Pilgrims progress addresses that dynamic
 

Absolutely

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"""Yes, His blood WAS shed for everyone. But that doesn't save anyone. Obviously you don't understand salvation.""""

Do a study on blood covenant.

Then tell me all about how i am wrong and blood covenant has nothing to do with salvation.
 

FreeGrace2

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I happen to lean toward election first because I believe God is the prime mover of all things.......including salvation. Salvation is a creation event and God is the creator of all things. God ALWAYS takes initiative per Romans 5:8. We have no explicable part to play in our own rebirth per John 3.
Do you know of any verses that say that man is saved by election? No. All verses regarding salvation/eternal life require faith.

Nevertheless I think both are true in ways that are only understandable in the mind of God. Not our problem. Both are biblical and must be accepted.
Once again, what verse says man is saved by being chosen for salvation?

Preaching has gone out in all the world and all men are responsible to make a choice.
Right. Man chooses to accept the free gift or not. That's not election.

If you can find a verse that says salvation is by election, I'll believe it.

And 2 Thess 2:13 doesn't say what most people claim it says.

" But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through (by means of) the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

The word in red "chose" isn't related to the Greek words translated elect/election. Here, the verb is "haireomai" whereas the verb for electing is "eklegomai".

Just a we don't call a political election a choosing, we don't call all choosings an election.

Second, the blue words show the means of our salvation: "the sanctifying work of the Spirit" and "belief in the truth".

The "sanctifying work of the Spirit" refers to what Jesus said in John 14 about the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Without that, no one would be saved.
 

FreeGrace2

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"""Yes, His blood WAS shed for everyone. But that doesn't save anyone. Obviously you don't understand salvation.""""

Do a study on blood covenant.

Then tell me all about how i am wrong and blood covenant has nothing to do with salvation.
I never said salvation "has nothing to do with blood". Which is what you are claiming.

Because Jesus died for everyone, everyone is savable. Jesus paid the sin debt for everyone. That allows God to extend grace to everyone and save those who believe.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Now, notice what the verse didn't say. That God's grace saves all people.

The ONLY REASON the grace of God has appeared and brings salvation for all people is because Jesus Christ paid the sin debt for all people.
 

cv5

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Do you know of any verses that say that man is saved by election? No. All verses regarding salvation/eternal life require faith.


Once again, what verse says man is saved by being chosen for salvation?


Right. Man chooses to accept the free gift or not. That's not election.

If you can find a verse that says salvation is by election, I'll believe it.

And 2 Thess 2:13 doesn't say what most people claim it says.

" But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through (by means of) the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

The word in red "chose" isn't related to the Greek words translated elect/election. Here, the verb is "haireomai" whereas the verb for electing is "eklegomai".

Just a we don't call a political election a choosing, we don't call all choosings an election.

Second, the blue words show the means of our salvation: "the sanctifying work of the Spirit" and "belief in the truth".

The "sanctifying work of the Spirit" refers to what Jesus said in John 14 about the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Without that, no one would be saved.
Do I know any verses? I know a TON of verses. But I'm not looking to get into a debate. But I will end it by saying that the doctrine of election is Biblical boilerplate. That's my view and I'm not going to be moved from it.....
 

FreeGrace2

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Do I know any verses? I know a TON of verses.
Those with the truth should be eager to share the truth.

But I'm not looking to get into a debate.
Well, that's convenient!

But, there is no debate with the truth. So if you really did have even 1 verse, you'd have shared it.

But I will end it by saying that the doctrine of election is Biblical boilerplate.
Of course it is. I've never said otherwise. But election is NOT for salvation. No verse says that. People who think election is for salvation are simply applying eisegesis to the verses.

That's my view and I'm not going to be moved from it.....
Of course. That's your business. But you don't have any verses that teach that election is to salvation. I've studied every verse that contains the noun, verb and adjective for election, and NONE speak of salvation.

If you did have such a verse, then I would have to repent of my view. Or "moved" as you put it.
 

cv5

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Those with the truth should be eager to share the truth.


Well, that's convenient!

But, there is no debate with the truth. So if you really did have even 1 verse, you'd have shared it.


Of course it is. I've never said otherwise. But election is NOT for salvation. No verse says that. People who think election is for salvation are simply applying eisegesis to the verses.


Of course. That's your business. But you don't have any verses that teach that election is to salvation. I've studied every verse that contains the noun, verb and adjective for election, and NONE speak of salvation.

If you did have such a verse, then I would have to repent of my view. Or "moved" as you put it.
Back to ignore for you buddy........I have important things to do.
 

FreeGrace2

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Back to ignore for you buddy........I have important things to do.
Sure. What's more important than sharing the truth? But instead of providing what you claim to have, you have to ignore me and my questions.

Isn't that just convenient. Now you don't have to see my questions that you can't answer.
 

TMS

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A reason why it is not pre trib....
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

If hundreds of people disappear it will be noticed, and it will make His coming known. but we are told it shall come as a thief in the night. With great noise and things will get very hot.

Noah was an example.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
 

ewq1938

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A reason why it is not pre trib....
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

If hundreds of people disappear it will be noticed, and it will make His coming known. but we are told it shall come as a thief in the night. With great noise and things will get very hot.
The New Heaven and new Earth does not happen at the second coming. That happens just after the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) is completed.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.