50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[lamad]

FreeGrace2 said:
Where in Matt 24 do you see this?

You failed to put in the ENDquote here, so had to include all the cites. Where do you get that beginning of birth pangs are EQUATED with the "seals" of Rev 6. I mean, from the Bible, of course. You make a lot of claims, but don't include support for them.

states that the "future" aspects of this Book are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [in contrast to "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"]);[/quoe]
This is just gobbly-gook. PLEASE quit your brackets, italics, underlinings, parentheses, etc, so I can get to your point.


Sure. birth pains begin, which signals a birth is coming. Duh. The FIRST group of God's judgment are the seals, followed by the trumpets , and then the bowl judgments. All of the Trib is the DOTL.

You did make me laugh. I agree: to many underlines, parenthesis, brackets running together makes things difficult.

However, you wrote this:
The FIRST group of God's judgment are the seals,

Sorry, but the seals are not judgments - not until seal 6 where judgment begins.
SEal 1: the church with the gospel
Seal 2-4 Satan's attempts to stop the church with the gospel - HOLD IT in that 1/4 of the earth theater of operation God has allowed them.
Seal 5 is the martyrs of the church age. God is NOT mad at His martyrs.

 

[lamad]

Notice the wrath of God doesn't come until the 6th seal:


When the Son of man comes He brings the wrath of God:

Readers take note that GOD starts wrath in chapter 6 of Revelation with the start of the DAY of His wrath, but God shows Jesus' coming in chapter 19! Nothing like trying to rearrange John's God given chronology!

However, it is very likely that Jesus has wrath at the battle of Armageddon. But the FAther's wrath is fulfilled in the vials of His wrath.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Sure. birth pains begin, which signals a birth is coming. Duh. The FIRST group of God's judgment are the seals, followed by the trumpets , and then the bowl judgments. All of the Trib is the DOTL.

I think (could it be?!) that we finally AGREE on a point! WooHoo!

Right. I've been saying that "the day of the Lord" INCLUDES all three of the following:

1) the 7 yr trib yrs (SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS, and "man of sin" IN HIS TIME; the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" aspect OF "the DOTL");

2) Christ's Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect);

3) His 1000 yr earthly Millennial Kingdom age (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect)

ALL THREE.


The false conveyors of 2Th2:2 were purporting that "the DOTL IS HERE / IS PRESENT" (aka what we call the TRIB yrs with its SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS and its "signs" and the "man of sin" doing ALL he is slated to DO over the course of those years)... they were purporting / alleging that that time-period IS HERE / IS PRESENT.

Paul is saying, NOT SO, and is himself bringing to the fore "our Rapture" (v.1) and cementing in the minds of [distraught, or potentially-being-distraught] Thessalonians, the SEQUENCE issues ("THE Departure *FIRST* before that purportedly-present "time-period" CAN/WILL INDEED "be present" with its "man of sin"... aka THE TRIB, commencing at SEAL #1).




It was PERFECTLY REASONABLE for them to believe it "IS HERE / IS PRESENT" because of the "persecutions and tribulations" they ENDURE, per 1:4.

(Those in 2:2 were basically purporting that the "JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth" IS HERE / IS PRESENT, and that they were IN IT and EXPERIENCING IT)

 

[lamad]

The great tribulation is not God's wrath:

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Revelation 12:12
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Sorry, but you are mistaken yet again. God is STILL ANGRY at the same time Satan is venting His wrath. When Satan's wrath is at its peak, and people are being beheaded around the world, God will pour out the vials of HIS WRATH to shorten those days of GT. So the bible shows us God's wrath and Satan's wrath runs simultaneously.

 

[lamad]

I think (could it be?!) that we finally AGREE on a point! WooHoo!

Right. I've been saying that "the day of the Lord" INCLUDES all three of the following:

1) the 7 yr trib yrs (SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS, and "man of sin" IN HIS TIME; the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" aspect OF "the DOTL");

2) Christ's Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect);

3) His 1000 yr earthly Millennial Kingdom age (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect)

ALL THREE.


The false conveyors of 2Th2:2 were purporting that "the DOTL IS HERE / IS PRESENT" (aka what we call the TRIB yrs with its SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS and its "signs" and the "man of sin" doing ALL he is slated to DO over the course of those years)... they were purporting / alleging that that time-period IS HERE / IS PRESENT.

Paul is saying, NOT SO, and is himself bringing to the fore "our Rapture" (v.1) and cementing in the minds of [distraught, or potentially-being-distraught] Thessalonians, the SEQUENCE issues ("THE Departure *FIRST* before that purportedly-present "time-period" CAN/WILL INDEED "be present" with its "man of sin"... aka THE TRIB, commencing at SEAL #1).


It was PERFECTLY REASONABLE for them to believe it "IS HERE / IS PRESENT" because of the "persecutions and tribulations" they ENDURE, per 1:4.

You will learn, eventually, that the seals are NOT INCLUDED in the 70th week. It begins with the 7th and final seal.

 

[Runningman]

Readers take note that GOD starts wrath in chapter 6 of Revelation with the start of the DAY of His wrath, but God shows Jesus' coming in chapter 19! Nothing like trying to rearrange John's God given chronology!

However, it is very likely that Jesus has wrath at the battle of Armageddon. But the FAther's wrath is fulfilled in the vials of His wrath.

Study the 6th seal (chapter 6), 7th trumpet (chapter 11), and the 7th vial (chapter 16). Add to that Ezekiel 38:18-22 and Matthew 24:29.

This should prove to you that the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial are the same thing. Revelation is not written in neat chronological sequence from front to back. Lots of overlap and parallel teachings of the same things.

 

[lamad]

Study the 6th seal (chapter 6), 7th trumpet (chapter 11), and the 7th vial (chapter 16). Add to that Ezekiel 38:18-22 and Matthew 24:29.

This should prove to you that the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial are the same thing. Revelation is not written in neat chronological sequence from front to back. Lots of overlap and parallel teachings of the same things.

Classic effort of a beginner in these things: find similar words in different passages so they MUST be speaking of the same thing. NOT!

It is IMPOSSIBLE that the 6th seal is timed with anything after the seals. Why? Because the seals are sealing a book that CONTAINS much of what we read in Revelation after chapter 8. The seals only seal the book: that is why they are called seals. When a seal is opened and what is written to happen happens, then that seal is forgotten. It is over and done with. But when all the seals have been opened then the BOOK is opened. It is impossible the book gets opened to reveal trumpets until ALL SEVEN seals are open. Therefore your theory fails.

Axiom on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

You rearrange at your peril. Your theory will be proven wrong. The truth is, GOD MARKED the 70th week with 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends the week.

It appears then that you totally disregard TIME. The truth is, NO overlap. That is only human imagination.

There are parallels but not what you think: in Chapters 11 to 13 John gives us 5 separate count-downs to the end, two in days, two in months and one in times. These countdowns are counting down while chapters 14, 15, and 16 are taking place, but they are invisible in the text: John does not write of it, only of the start of each.

 

[Runningman]

Classic effort of a beginner in these things: find similar words in different passages so they MUST be speaking of the same thing. NOT!

It is IMPOSSIBLE that the 6th seal is timed with anything after the seals. Why? Because the seals are sealing a book that CONTAINS much of what we read in Revelation after chapter 8. The seals only seal the book: that is why they are called seals. When a seal is opened and what is written to happen happens, then that seal is forgotten. It is over and done with. But when all the seals have been opened then the BOOK is opened. It is impossible the book gets opened to reveal trumpets until ALL SEVEN seals are open. Therefore your theory fails.

Axiom on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

You rearrange at your peril. Your theory will be proven wrong. The truth is, GOD MARKED the 70th week with 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends the week.

It appears then that you totally disregard TIME. The truth is, NO overlap. That is only human imagination.

There are parallels but not what you think: in Chapters 11 to 13 John gives us 5 separate count-downs to the end, two in days, two in months and one in times. These countdowns are counting down while chapters 14, 15, and 16 are taking place, but they are invisible in the text: John does not write of it, only of the start of each.

I can tell you are passionate about what you believe, but fundamentally I think we read the Bible with an entirely different theology. You seem to be in lockstep with the typical dispensationalism that often accompanies the pre-trib rapture doctrine. As far as I'm concerned that's a false doctrine.

I'm just trying to help you see what I'm seeing. You don't have to agree with it, just understand who your talking to and why they believe what they do.

 

[Evmur]

Mat 24 shifts to "before the flood"

THEN ( timetable) Jesus brings in noah, and the "one taken/ left"and " watching and waiting/ being ready"

Jesus THEN goes straight into the 10 virgins and ...you guessed it..." Watching and waiting/being ready.

No rapture dynamic ANYWHERE Is postrib.

No possibility of a postrib rapture alongside 1 thes 4 and rev 14.

You can not have the living of rev 14 PRECEDE The dead in christ of the rapture

Unless you are one of the " trib is any trib and wrath is ONLY last half of the gt." Adherents.

Too tedious.

The entire 7 years is trib/ wrath mixture.

Take a real close look at the 4 horsemen
They are beyond "trouble" ,or "tribulation"

The flood was the wrath of God.
The 10 maidens are bridal attendants ... they all slept and slumbered. We's the Bride, we come with the Groom. we do not need to knock to gain entrance.
In 2 thess.2. Paul clearly shows that antichrist must first be revealed. He will oppose everything god so called, this is the great end time persecution we are warned to expect or the great tribulation.

 

[Evmur]

Please, allow me to lay it out.

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

This is one of God's descriptions of the Day of the Lord. John shows it starting at the 6th seal.

2nd Trumpet: 1/3 of sea becomes blood.
3rd Trumpet: 1/3 of fresh water becomes "wormwood."
6th trumpet 1/3 of earth's population killed

Question: does this fit Isa 13:9 above: God making the land desolate and destroying sinners out of it? You know it does. So what is this showing us? It shows us very clearly that the Day of the Lord starts right where John mentions it: the 6th seal. (Others say the 7th seal - small difference)

Question 2: did I understand that correctly? I think these scriptures cannot be seen any other way.

2 thes 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Please answer this question: in verse 3b bolded, is the man of sin revealed in Paul's argument or is he not?

You understand the opening of the seals and the 7 trumpets are not the same events? it's a progressive narrative.

The church has gone when the trumpets are being blown, they are in heaven dressed in white "these are they who have come out of great tribulation"

 

[lamad]

I can tell you are passionate about what you believe, but fundamentally I think we read the Bible with an entirely different theology. You seem to be in lockstep with the typical dispensationalism that often accompanies the pre-trib rapture doctrine. As far as I'm concerned that's a false doctrine.

I'm just trying to help you see what I'm seeing. You don't have to agree with it, just understand who your talking to and why they believe what they do.

When God had John write Revelation, He had one intent for each verse - not two or more. Our goal should be to discover His intent - not worry about "was this theory invented by someone 200 years ago.

I could say the same thing for Paul's writings.

As for dispensations - ask yourself: are we today under the law? Or are we under grace?

Ephesians 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Why would this word cause anyone to question it? It was written down long before you were born. Your goal may well be to get others to believe what you believe or at least understand it. I think you will find that very difficult if it goes against what is written. Can you explain WHY dispensations give you trouble in believing? In fact, why does two more comings of our Lord cause you trouble?

I find others think nothing or rearranging Revelation to fit some theory. I, on the other hand, formed my theories from Revelation as written. I am convinced that any attempt to rearrange will be a theory found in error. No one yet has proven to be by actual scripture any need to rearrange.

I might add, much of what I know about Revelation I was taught by Jesus: He SPOKE to me. I well remember His words.

 

[lamad]

The flood was the wrath of God.
The 10 maidens are bridal attendants ... they all slept and slumbered. We's the Bride, we come with the Groom. we do not need to knock to gain entrance.
In 2 thess.2. Paul clearly shows that antichrist must first be revealed. He will oppose everything god so called, this is the great end time persecution we are warned to expect or the great tribulation.

Evmur, I think you are reading 2 Thes. 2 wrong, not understanding Paul's meaning.

You did not answer my question: in the 3rd verse, is the man of sin revealed, or is he not in Paul's argument?
Anyway, you are disagreeing with Paul as to what comes "first." Go back and read it again.

 

[lamad]

You understand the opening of the seals and the 7 trumpets are not the same events? it's a progressive narrative.

The church has gone when the trumpets are being blown, they are in heaven dressed in white "these are they who have come out of great tribulation"

You understand the opening of the seals and the 7 trumpets are not the same events? it's a progressive narrative.

The church has gone when the trumpets are being blown, they are in heaven dressed in white "these are they who have come out of great tribulation"
Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant! I am very impressed! I like "progressive narrative."

 

[Absolutely]

The flood was the wrath of God.
The 10 maidens are bridal attendants ... they all slept and slumbered. We's the Bride, we come with the Groom. we do not need to knock to gain entrance.
In 2 thess.2. Paul clearly shows that antichrist must first be revealed. He will oppose everything god so called, this is the great end time persecution we are warned to expect or the great tribulation.

You just said " revealed"

That does not change a pretrib rapture at all.

Revealed means revealed.

Has NOTHING to do with " pretrib or posttrib" rapture.

It just says revealed.

You also added " maidens"
Why do you do that?
You just completely changed the word of God....the parable.

Then you go on to say nobody can be unworthy...as the 5 foolish VIRGINS.

I suggest you read the 7 letters to the 7 churches....( VIVID depiction of christians rewarded or found unworthy)

Then take a look at the bema seat. Tons and tons of believers will not be worthy of crowns.

Then Romans where it says TO BELIEVERS " if i cut my people off...how much more will YOU BE CUT OFF....but i will graft my people back in"

That is exactly opposite of the dynamic you made up in your mind.

To top it off it says that those martyrs coming out of the gt WASHED THEIR DORTY ROBES IM THE BLOOD.

The foolish stayed behind and faced antichrist. Their dirty robes now clean.

Nominal carnal wishy washy believers living carelessly...but watching and waiting.

They did good by watching... Did bad by a dry walk of no intimacy.

 

[Absolutely]

The flood was the wrath of God.
The 10 maidens are bridal attendants ... they all slept and slumbered. We's the Bride, we come with the Groom. we do not need to knock to gain entrance.
In 2 thess.2. Paul clearly shows that antichrist must first be revealed. He will oppose everything god so called, this is the great end time persecution we are warned to expect or the great tribulation.

You just said " revealed"

That does not change a pretrib rapture at all.

Revealed means revealed.

Has NOTHING to do with " pretrib or posttrib" rapture.

It just says revealed.

You also added " maidens"
Why do you do that?
You just completely changed the word of God....the parable.

Then you go on to say nobody can be unworthy...as the 5 foolish VIRGINS.

I suggest you read the 7 letters to the 7 churches....( VIVID depiction of christians rewarded or found unworthy)

Then take a look at the bema seat. Tons and tons of believers will not be worthy of crowns.

Then Romans where it says TO BELIEVERS " if i cut my people off...how much more will YOU BE CUT OFF....but i will graft my people back in"

That is exactly opposite of the dynamic you made up in your mind.

To top it off it says that those martyrs coming out of the gt WASHED THEIR DORTY ROBES IM THE BLOOD.

The foolish stayed behind and faced antichrist. Their dirty robes now clean.

Nominal carnal wishy washy believers living carelessly...but watching and waiting.

They did good by watching... Did bad by a dry walk of no intimacy

You understand the opening of the seals and the 7 trumpets are not the same events? it's a progressive narrative.

The church has gone when the trumpets are being blown, they are in heaven dressed in white "these are they who have come out of great tribulation"

Nope
Those are only martyrs.

You are assuming there is no pretrib rapture.

So you reframed it to fit.

One basic misconception is that the antichrist revealed has some smoking gun against a pretrib rapture.

I see this error over and over.

They think "revealed" means "in full power and years later into the gt"

Changing Gods word for a doctrine

 

[Absolutely]

You just said " revealed"

That does not change a pretrib rapture at all.

Revealed means revealed.

Has NOTHING to do with " pretrib or posttrib" rapture.

It just says revealed.

You also added " maidens"
Why do you do that?
You just completely changed the word of God....the parable.

Then you go on to say nobody can be unworthy...as the 5 foolish VIRGINS.

I suggest you read the 7 letters to the 7 churches....( VIVID depiction of christians rewarded or found unworthy)

Then take a look at the bema seat. Tons and tons of believers will not be worthy of crowns.

Then Romans where it says TO BELIEVERS " if i cut my people off...how much more will YOU BE CUT OFF....but i will graft my people back in"

That is exactly opposite of the dynamic you made up in your mind.

To top it off it says that those martyrs coming out of the gt WASHED THEIR DORTY ROBES IM THE BLOOD.

The foolish stayed behind and faced antichrist. Their dirty robes now clean.

Nominal carnal wishy washy believers living carelessly...but watching and waiting.

They did good by watching... Did bad by a dry walk of no intimacy

Nope
Those are only martyrs.

You are assuming there is no pretrib rapture.

So you reframed it to fit.

One basic misconception is that the antichrist revealed has some smoking gun against a pretrib rapture.

I see this error over and over.

They think "revealed" means "in full power and years later into the gt"

Changing Gods word for a doctrine

"""Then Romans where it says TO BELIEVERS " if i cut my people off...how much more will YOU BE CUT OFF....but i will graft my people back in""""

Exactly the law of heaven that is applied to the 5 foolish virgins.

They arrive late but do get to heaven.

 

[lamad]

"""Then Romans where it says TO BELIEVERS " if i cut my people off...how much more will YOU BE CUT OFF....but i will graft my people back in""""

Exactly the law of heaven that is applied to the 5 foolish virgins.

They arrive late but do get to heaven.

Could you show the verse that they DO get to heaven? I have never heard that before.

 

[Absolutely]

When God had John write Revelation, He had one intent for each verse - not two or more. Our goal should be to discover His intent - not worry about "was this theory invented by someone 200 years ago.

I could say the same thing for Paul's writings.

As for dispensations - ask yourself: are we today under the law? Or are we under grace?

Ephesians 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Why would this word cause anyone to question it? It was written down long before you were born. Your goal may well be to get others to believe what you believe or at least understand it. I think you will find that very difficult if it goes against what is written. Can you explain WHY dispensations give you trouble in believing? In fact, why does two more comings of our Lord cause you trouble?

I find others think nothing or rearranging Revelation to fit some theory. I, on the other hand, formed my theories from Revelation as written. I am convinced that any attempt to rearrange will be a theory found in error. No one yet has proven to be by actual scripture any need to rearrange.

I might add, much of what I know about Revelation I was taught by Jesus: He SPOKE to me. I well remember His words.

there is only one that can not be decieved and that is Jesus.

You can be very easily decieved as can any man.

Look at all the times you were wrong in the past.

All false doctrine espoused and proclaimed by men carries along side it " i got this directly from God"
And cannot be refuted

Nope
Not today

It must be backed up

 

[lamad]

Is the great crowd, too large to number, martyrs, or are they the raptured church with resurrection bodies?

 

[Absolutely]

Could you show the verse that they DO get to heaven? I have never heard that before.

rev 14 has ethnic firstfruit Jews in heaven first.( messianic jews)

Followed by a main harvest by Jesus on a cloud. Right after firstfruit jews.