50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[lamad]

Right! He ascended TWO times, some "40 days" apart.

The SECOND one was indeed "VISIBLE" (and will be how He "so comes in like manner" to the earth, per Acts 1); the FIRST one (ON "Firstfruit" [fulfilling Lev23:10-12]/His Resurrection Day) was SEEN by NO ONE... He only TOLD Mary Magdalene about it, and told HER to "GO... and SAY UNTO" (i.e. verbal testimony re: this)... however, no one SAW it take place (in that instance).

I suspect He descended / ascended to from and to heaven for every appearance during those 40 days. I further suspect He ascended first right after sending Mary away.

 

[lamad]

...says the man who is notorious for leaving words and whole phrases out of a verse

What I'd said in that LINKed post was:

"the FIRST time He appeared "apart from sin" [was] FOLLOWING His finished CROSS-work [i.e. after His resurrection!]--though it was numerous appearances, all told), He will do THIS "a second time... [again [APPEAR-G3807 (passive)] apart-from-sin]"

...and again, NOT speaking of the "OPENLY MANIFEST BEFORE ALL" (but, like the FIRST time He did was ONLY TO carefully chosen WITNESSES, Acts 10:41), "[SHALL APPEAR] UNTO them that look for Him"

(this could be referring "the 144,000" [of whom Paul is a "TYPE"], or to a wider audience... but I don't think it necessarily [and likely DOES NOT] refer to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" point-in-time, which would occur even prior TO THAT, meaning, prior to "the 144,000" thing [thus ("re: our Rapture" event) corresponding to an even EARLIER point-in-time which ALSO FOLLOWED His resurrection... which I went into in another post, so won't go into here--but just to say, the PATTERN HOLDS TRUE ])



The "SECOND TIME" in relation to what? (what does the TEXT say?)

Did you not read Hebrews?

Heb 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

This verse in NO WAY prohibits a third or fourth coming....

 

[lamad]

The finer point here is that the saints can't be present in the great tribulation if they are raptured out as you claim they will be.

This is simply not true. The moment after the rapture, millions will realize their mistaken and turn to God with a fervor. It will be a whole new group of saints - but they will be overcome.

 

[lamad]

I believe in the future (Catching Up) as seen below in 1 Thess 4:15-17, however this takes place at the second coming, last day resurrection as clearly seen below.

A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture, a false teaching.

Why do you keep posting myths?
If the 1 Thes 4 coming is after the trib, prove it by scripture. Just someone believing something is no proof.

 

[lamad]

I am definitely worried that those who do not desire nor believe in the rapture will not participate in it. That's why I keep posting new threads maybe there's still hope....

Since everything we ever get from heaven, we get by and through faith - I must agree with you. I think the rapture will be limited to those who believe in it and are EXPECTING HIM when He comes. When Jesus comes FOR His saints, will he find faith on the earth?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Did you not read Hebrews?
Heb 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
This verse in NO WAY prohibits a third or fourth coming....

...except, my posts were NOT MAKING SUCH A POINT.


[note: I am NOT agreeing with those who are saying that THIS VERSE says He can only COME "TWICE". NO! (that is NOT the POINT of THAT VERSE / PASSAGE, as I've said...)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I further suspect He ascended first right after sending Mary away.

I agree that He DID... as has been my point in SEVERAL posts throughout this thread. YES!



["I [ACTIVE] ASCEND"... refers to what He was going to do THAT VERY DAY: ON FIRSTFRUIT (Lev23:10-12; 1Cor15:20; Jn20:17, etc) / His Resurrection Day... and it was AFTER THAT that this "APPEAR [G3708 - passive 'appear']" took place (10 references TO THIS... Same as in Heb9:28)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ... I had just written again on that very point, not four hours ago, in this very thread:

Post #1,100 (pg 55) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4538779

 

[Runningman]

This is simply not true. The moment after the rapture, millions will realize their mistaken and turn to God with a fervor. It will be a whole new group of saints - but they will be overcome.

No. What you're describing is found no where in scripture.

 

[Runningman]

This is simply not true. The moment after the rapture, millions will realize their mistaken and turn to God with a fervor. It will be a whole new group of saints - but they will be overcome.

Pure fantasy.

Paul teaches that Jesus returns after the anti-Christ is revealed. That marks the end of the great tribulation because Jesus destroys him by the brightness of His coming. It's very simple. Read 2 Thessalonians 2 until you understand this.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Pure fantasy.
Paul teaches that Jesus returns after the anti-Christ is revealed. That marks the end of the great tribulation because Jesus destroys him by the brightness of His coming. It's very simple. Read 2 Thessalonians 2 until you understand this.

No he doesn't.

He wrote: "3 that day [the 'day' [/TIME-PERIOD] FROM VERSE 2 that the FALSE CONVEYORS had referred to!] will NOT be present, if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [<--the item PAUL brought to the FORE in v.1] *and* the man of sin BE REVEALED..."

(and he is "REVEALED" at the START of the seven years, NOT its END... NOR at its MIDDLE!... per what Paul had ALREADY stated earlier about the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... 1Th5:2-3... its [that 'TIME-PERIOD's'] ARRIVAL point in time [just like Jesus HAD TALKED ABOUT])

 

[VCO]

(1 Corinthians 2:14 NIrV) Some people don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. Things like that are foolish to them. They can't understand them. In fact, such things can't be understood without the Spirit's help.

 

[Runningman]

No he doesn't.

He wrote: "3 that day [the 'day' [/TIME-PERIOD] FROM VERSE 2 that the FALSE CONVEYORS had referred to!] will NOT be present, if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [<--the item PAUL brought to the FORE in v.1] *and* the man of sin BE REVEALED..."

(and he is "REVEALED" at the START of the seven years, NOT its END... NOR at its MIDDLE!... per what Paul had ALREADY stated earlier about the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... 1Th5:2-3... its [that 'TIME-PERIOD's'] ARRIVAL point in time [just like Jesus HAD TALKED ABOUT])

Jesus destroys the anti-Christ when He comes meaning that if Jesus raptured the church before the great tribulation then there would be no anti-Christ or false prophet.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-9
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


That's why the gathering occurs at the coming of the Lord Jesus. (2 Thess. 2:1)

The rapture is post-trib. I'm not going to get into another long debate about it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No. What you're describing is found no where in scripture.

EVERYTHING in Matthew 24 takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture".

To READ ONESELF INTO Matthew 24 (esp v.14, as many tend to do) is to USURP a role that is assigned to those FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (NOT TO US)... They will be DOING the "INVITING TO" the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES [aka 'the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom'] (which "INVITATION" is NOT what is going forth NOW; Instead, what WE are doing, is asking ppl ['in this present age [singular]'] to be a part of "the MARRIAGE" ; ) [2Cor11:2 'betrothed to Christ' presently, but THEN [at "our Rapture"], "thus shall we ever be G4862'd the Lord"! ])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus destroys the anti-Christ when He comes meaning that if Jesus raptured the church before the great tribulation then there would be no anti-Christ or false prophet.
2 Thessalonians 2:8-9
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

"the MANIFESTATION of His presence/coming/parousia" (speaking of the Lord) in v.8b is NOT at the same moment that v.1's "the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, and/even OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (that is, IN THE AIR);

BETWEEN those ^ two points-in-time, "the man of sin" will be revealed to DO ALL he is slated TO DO, over the course of SOME TIME ("IN HIS TIME"<--"the man of sin's" TIME, aka the "IN THE NIGHT" / "DARK" / "DARKNESS" *time-period*... when "God shall SEND GREAT DELUSION" to *them*" [that is, to certain ones] "IN ORDER THAT they should BELIEVE the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"... <--before Christ "RETURNS" at the point-in-time of His [VISIBLE] "MANIFESTATION of His presence/coming/parousia" v.8b [not the one "IN THE AIR" (v.1) which involves NOT "ALL" ppl everywhere, of all times. NO!])




Distinguish the things that DIFFER... because things that are different are NOT THE SAME!

 

[Runningman]

EVERYTHING in Matthew 24 takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture".

To READ ONESELF INTO Matthew 24 (esp v.14, as many tend to do) is to USURP a role that is assigned to those FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (NOT TO US)... They will be DOING the "INVITING TO" the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES [aka 'the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom'] (which "INVITATION" is NOT what is going forth NOW; Instead, what WE are doing, is asking ppl ['in this present age [singular]'] to be a part of "the MARRIAGE" ; ) [2Cor11:2 'betrothed to Christ' presently, but THEN [at "our Rapture"], "thus shall we ever be G4862'd the Lord"! ])

Doesn't make sense the coming of the Son of man be like a flood in the days of Noah before the great tribulation. There'd be no one left.

The only way it makes sense is to rapture the church out at the end of the GT then deal with the rest of the world. Turns out that's what the Bible says happens.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Doesn't make sense the coming of the Son of man be like a flood in the days of Noah before the great tribulation. There'd be no one left.

The only way it makes sense is to rapture the church out at the end of the GT then deal with the rest of the world. Turns out that's what the Bible says happens.

"[the days of] Noah" in this passage (Matt24 [& Lk17:26,27,29], is NOT a picture of "our Rapture," just to be clear.

So, I don't really know what you're saying here.

Noah and crew were preserved through the flood judgment, and ENTERED a "new" existence on the land (in their same mortal bodies, CAPABLE of reproducing/bearing children), just as Dan2:35c / Matt24:36,37-51 (and its parallels) / Gen9:1 all AGREE (saying, "[actively] FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] earth").





[OTOH, "ENOCH [ONE MAN]" was taken OUT/UP... entirely BEFORE the time-period when the "flood-judgment" unfolded upon the earth]

 

[Runningman]

"[the days of] Noah" in this passage (Matt24 [& Lk17:26,27,29], is NOT a picture of "our Rapture," just to be clear.

So, I don't really know what you're saying here.

Noah and crew were preserved through the flood judgment, and ENTERED a "new" existence on the land (in their same mortal bodies, CAPABLE of reproducing/bearing children), just as Dan2:35c / Matt24:36,37-51 (and its parallels) / Gen9:1 all AGREE (saying, "[actively] FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] earth").





[OTOH, "ENOCH [ONE MAN]" was taken OUT/UP... entirely BEFORE the time-period when the "flood-judgment" unfolded upon the earth]

So you're saying these verses happen before the great tribulation?

Matthew 24:37-41
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

 

[cv5]

I suspect He descended / ascended to from and to heaven for every appearance during those 40 days. I further suspect He ascended first right after sending Mary away.

Certainly possible that this occurred frequently. How frequently we will never know. However and indisputably all of these occurrences were His "appearing". His Second Coming only occurs after the rapture/marriage, in the capacity to judge rule and reign.

 

[cv5]

When addressing the Church, the terms:

-(our) gathering
-(His) appearing
-(when Christ) appears
2Th 2:1
Col 3:4
1Ti 6:14
2Ti 4:1
2Ti 4:8
Tit 2:13
All of these references pertaining to the rapture. The only audience will be believers.

Whenever the term "return" is used it pertains to the Second Coming to the earth. The only audience will be Israelites (converted and unconverted), and gentiles (converted and unconverted).

Really quite simple and straightforward.

Forgot one term........the "revelation/revealed". Directed to the Church it always means the rapture event.

1Pe 1:7
1Pe 4:13
1Pe 1:13