Charismatic Lutherans LCMS

SarahM777 · Sep 10, 2013

Cont

E. Christian certainty is not based on “feeling” but on the objective promises of the
Gospel. While Lutherans appreciate and fully value the importance of spiritual experience, the
Lutheran Confessions always point us to the objective promise of the Gospel as the unfailing
basis of hope and certainty both in this life and in the life to come. As Dr. Francis Pieper has
written: “ . . . saving faith is always faith in the Word of Christ, faith in the external Word of the
Gospel, which Christ commanded His Church to preach and to teach (Mark 16:15-16; Rom. 1:1-
2). This external Word is both the object of faith (‘Believe the Gospel,’ Mark 1:15) and the
means by which faith is created (‘Faith cometh by hearing,’ Rom. 10:17). A belief whose object
is not the Word of Christ as we have it in the Word of His Apostles (John 17:20) . . . is according
to the Scriptures a delusion, ignorance, and a human fabrication (1 Tim. 6:3-4; 1 Cor. 2:1-5:
‘faith in the wisdom of men’).” Dr. Pieper continues: “The modern theologians . . . substitute . . .
‘the Person of Christ,’ ‘the living Christ,’ etc. . . . But he who by-passes Christ’s words also
misses the ‘living Christ.’10
F. “Baptism with the Spirit” is not a basis for church fellowship. Lutherans believe that
Christians should pray earnestly for and work diligently toward a God-pleasing harmony among
Christian churches. The Confessions frequently demonstrate this attitude (Ap Preface, 19, 16; FC
Ep XI, 22; AC Preface, 10; FC SD XI, 96). However, the Lutheran Confessions do not
countenance a view which would find a basis for church fellowship in a common experience of
“baptism with the Holy Spirit.” Before practicing altar and pulpit fellowship The Lutheran
Church? Missouri Synod seeks agreement in the doctrine of the Gospel, in all its articles, and in
the right use of the sacraments. Unionistic worship with those who deny doctrines of the Holy
Scriptures dishonors the Holy Spirit and fails to give proper witness to the erring brother.11
G. The gift of the Holy Spirit does not necessarily include extraordinary spiritual gifts.
While Lutherans rejoice in the gracious promise that the gift of the Holy Spirit will be given to
all generations of believers (Acts 2:39), neither the Scriptures nor the Lutheran Confessions
support the view that this gift of the Spirit necessarily includes such extraordinary spiritual gifts
as tongues, miracles, miraculous healings, and prophecy (1 Cor. 12). According to the pattern
revealed in the Bible, God does not necessarily give His church in all ages the same special gifts.
He bestows His blessings according to His good pleasure. (1 Cor. 12:11)

SarahM777 · Sep 10, 2013

Cont

Summary and Conclusion
When someone who is troubled because of his sins is told that he can find certainty and
rest for his troubled conscience in some inner experience such as “baptism with the Spirit,” he is
directed away from Christ to his own inner spiritual estate. Such teaching directs the troubled
sinner to his own experience as the basis for his certainty and the joy of his salvation and places
him once again under the bondage of the Law. This leads either to a self-righteous confidence in
one’s own inner experience or to spiritual despair for the person who has had no such
experience. Confidence in human experience is carnal security, not the inner testimony of the
Holy Spirit, who always directs us to Jesus Christ and God’s promise in the preaching (teaching)
of the Gospel, Holy Baptism, Holy Absolution, and Holy Communion.
The Gospel is the gracious promise of the remission of sins for the sake of Jesus Christ.
The forgiveness of sins is apprehended by faith in the promise, and only by faith. The teaching
that an inner experience such as “baptism with the Spirit” is a part of the Gospel promise and that
without the promise of such an experience we do not have the “full Gospel” adds human works
to the Gospel and stands under the apostolic curse: “But even if we, or an angel from heaven,
should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.”
(Gal. 1:8)
It is important that Christian people be warned against doctrine or teaching which is
presented as the Word and will of God, when in fact the Sacred Scriptures do not clearly teach
such doctrine. The Holy Scriptures forbid the teaching of pious personal opinions and private
interpretation of Scripture as God’s Word and will: “Behold, I am against the prophets, says the
Lord, who use their tongues and say, ‘Says the Lord.’” (Jer. 23:31; cf. also 2 Peter 1:20)
In order to provide guidance in determining whether or not doctrine and teaching in this
matter is in accordance with the Sacred Scriptures, we offer the following summary of the
Biblical doctrine.
The Holy Scriptures Teach:
1. That we are justified alone by the atoning work of Jesus Christ.
2. That the forgiveness of our sins on account of Christ, promised and offered in the Gospel, is
our righteousness before God.
3. That it is by faith alone that we accept God’s promised offer of forgiveness and are justified.
4. That the faith by which we accept God’s forgiveness on account of Christ is the work of
God’s Spirit through the external means of grace, namely, the preaching (teaching) of the
Gospel, Holy Baptism, Holy Absolution, and the Lord’s Supper. Through these external
means the Holy Spirit works faith in the heart when and where it pleases God. Through these
external means of grace the Holy Spirit, together with all that is necessary for life and
salvation, is given to those who believe.
5. That faith, which is the work of God’s Spirit, is the confident assurance that for Christ’s sake
we are forgiven and accepted by God as righteous. Through this confident faith in the
promise of God the accusing voice of conscience is quieted and the troubled heart finds rest.

SarahM777 · Sep 10, 2013

Cont

It Is Contrary to the Holy Scriptures, and Therefore Dangerous to the Salvation of Men, to
Teach:
1. That God desires every Christian, following Baptism, to have a “second experience” such as
the “baptism with the Spirit.”
2. That the so-called “gifts of the Spirit” are external signs by which we can assure ourselves
that we have faith, are living in God’s grace, or have the Spirit of God.
3. That God promises every Christian such gifts as speaking in tongues, healing, discerning of
spirits, and prophesy and that God has given such a promise as a part of the “full” or
“complete Gospel.”
4. That a “conversion experience,” “baptism with the Spirit,” or other inner religious experience
is necessary for, or should be urged upon, Christians in order that they may be certain either
of having faith and salvation or of the indwelling of God’s Spirit.
5. That a Christian who has not had such an experience either has an incomplete faith, is
unconverted and is still living under the rule of sin, or has only accepted Christ as his Savior
but not as his Lord.
6. That the sanctification of a Christian is incomplete unless he possesses the gift of speaking in
tongues.
7. That God promises healing and health to every Christian in this life and that, if such healing
does not occur, it is due to a lack of faith.
8. That God gives guidance and leadership to the church today through visions and dreams or
direct prophecy.

zone · Sep 10, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Cont

It Is Contrary to the Holy Scriptures, and Therefore Dangerous to the Salvation of Men, to
Teach:
1. That God desires every Christian, following Baptism, to have a “second experience” such as
the “baptism with the Spirit.”
2. That the so-called “gifts of the Spirit” are external signs by which we can assure ourselves
that we have faith, are living in God’s grace, or have the Spirit of God.
3. That God promises every Christian such gifts as speaking in tongues, healing, discerning of
spirits, and prophesy and that God has given such a promise as a part of the “full” or
“complete Gospel.”
4. That a “conversion experience,” “baptism with the Spirit,” or other inner religious experience
is necessary for, or should be urged upon, Christians in order that they may be certain either
of having faith and salvation or of the indwelling of God’s Spirit.
5. That a Christian who has not had such an experience either has an incomplete faith, is
unconverted and is still living under the rule of sin, or has only accepted Christ as his Savior
but not as his Lord.
6. That the sanctification of a Christian is incomplete unless he possesses the gift of speaking in
tongues.
7. That God promises healing and health to every Christian in this life and that, if such healing
does not occur, it is due to a lack of faith.
8. That God gives guidance and leadership to the church today through visions and dreams or
direct prophecy.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SarahM777 again.

zone · Sep 10, 2013

Stephen63 said:

i'm on ignore, so no derailing intended - just the counter to all this.

a perfect opportunity: for all who may be interested, please see upcoming thread on Ecumenism, Roman Catholicism & The Charismatic Movement

(featuring Larry Christenson; David du Plessis; Ralph Martin and Stephen Clark; Derek Prince; Word of God (community); The Ft. Lauderdale Elders/Five; Vatican II; and The Shepherding Movement - etc).

crossnote · Sep 10, 2013

I don't understand movements which when they come across a certain body of teachings (in this case the Book of Concord) instead of accept thosse teachings for what they are and move on to start their own body...instead try to infiltrate and change that said teaching to conform to their own.
They should be honest up front ''we no longer hold to the teachings of the means of grace found in the' BOC. We are not Lutheran.''

eternally-gratefull · Sep 10, 2013

crossnote said:

Satan wants to get into every church, This is usually how he infiltrates them..

Tintin · Sep 10, 2013

Ah, cool. A Lutheran thread. Er... hmm. It looks messy.

crossnote · Sep 10, 2013

Tintin said:

I thought Lutherans 'thrived' in messes...like lcm-mess

GreenNnice · Sep 11, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Cont

It Is Contrary to the Holy Scriptures, and Therefore Dangerous to the Salvation of Men, to
Teach:
1. That God desires every Christian, following Baptism, to have a “second experience” such as
the “baptism with the Spirit.”
Huh? The Holy Spirit is in you, a 'seal of our inheritance,' this should be understood from Ephesians 1, sarah7s

2. That the so-called “gifts of the Spirit” are external signs by which we can assure ourselves
that we have faith, are living in God’s grace, or have the Spirit of God.
Huh? Nice word , "so-called," Christ used it to describe Satain's 'deep secrets' in Revelation 2, sarah7s. But, yeah, huh?
Who believes such things seal our salvation, they are just a PART of those whose lives in Him believe AND RECEIVE

3. That God promises every Christian such gifts as speaking in tongues, healing, discerning of
spirits, and prophesy and that God has given such a promise as a part of the “full” or
“complete Gospel.”
Huh? Again, where in Carmen in San Diego do you see this as Truth in Scripture. Ridiculous thought. He promises NO such thing, Paul doesn't even want us to interpret, He just wants us to save sinners to Christ, just like what Jesus did

4. That a “conversion experience,” “baptism with the Spirit,” or other inner religious experience
is necessary for, or should be urged upon, Christians in order that they may be certain either
of having faith and salvation or of the indwelling of God’s Spirit.
Noooooo. Who tells you, this ? what kind of brainwashing to others' denominations are you being fed, sarah7s

Again, God says NO such thing in Scripture, we are to accept Him and believe in Him and have faith in Him for salvation, thats Ephesians 101, or, er, Ephesians 2: 8-9. And don';t forget 10 , we are created to bring glory to God, that is OUR soul purpose on Earth, and yes, saving sinners is bringing glory to Christ. EVERY THING--there is not anything that counts contraire to this 'golorification' Truth--EVERYTHING we do, won't bring glory to Christ if we let 'it.'

Whatever we who are His do, who are in Him, walking with Him, as Holy Scripture says, we are to DO FOR THE GLORY OF GOD

5. That a Christian who has not had such an experience either has an incomplete faith, is
unconverted and is still living under the rule of sin, or has only accepted Christ as his Savior
but not as his Lord.
Noooo, pentecostals do not say this, we understand that the Holy Spirit experience is a personal experience and becomes and deepens the MOMENT a person 'receives' Him in faith. But, for salvation? Nooooo. That's judgment, NO ONE who is a followe of His is to JUDGE another's salvation and eternal destination but Christ Himself when it comes to HOW WE GET TO HEAVEN past, you got it , understanding God's grace through faith He's GIVEN US

6. That the sanctification of a Christian is incomplete unless he possesses the gift of speaking in
tongues.
Balogney . Pentecostals do NOT believe this and no Christian who follows Him should believe this stufffed 'meat.'
That means they are NOT ready for the meat of the Word and are still inside their own judgmentalism and needing 'milk,' as Paul so aptly says in Scripture , 1 Cor. 1 , to be exact

7. That God promises healing and health to every Christian in this life and that, if such healing
does not occur, it is due to a lack of faith.
More balogney. Who says this stuff to you, sarah7s, makes you think others in Christ THINK of you in this condescending, even condemning way

Makes no sense, that is not Christianity to say that faith is an ashaming act. Get close to my ear, milady: IT NEVER IS THAT WAY

Never

Not my God and not yours either

8. That God gives guidance and leadership to the church today through visions and dreams or
direct prophecy.

God gives guidance and leadership and a lot of other stuff, in His OWN PERSONAL WAY, to all who believe, whether they 'see' Him working in their life, well, that's up to the person personally receiving the substance of the faith and, ahm yeah, let's just leave at that, as, the Lord leads, but on 'that' much I think we can agree

directline2iam · Sep 11, 2013

Stephen63 said:

Yet, while one can theorize about different ways the charismatic movement might have developed, the overall narrative testifies to a significant work of the Holy Spirit. I have been personally involved with the charismatic movement among Lutherans for nearly fifty years. When I first began to think and write about it, I made a simple observation: the Bible says, “God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues” (1 Corinthians 12:28). Now, God does not do foolish or unnecessary things. If God appointed certain gifts and ministries in the church, it is not for us to weigh whether they are good or necessary, but rather to ask, “Why did God do this? What does He have in mind?”

It is also worth noting that the shape or emphasis of the charismatic renewal varies considerably from place to place and from time to time. In one Lutheran congregation the renewal brought a strong emphasis on Bible teaching and theology, including a demanding three-year confirmation course. In the late 1980s, almost overnight, a fresh emphasis on world evangelization spread throughout the entire renewal. In a Lutheran congregation in North Carolina the renewal came to expression in the grandest worship I have ever experienced — an artful and measured blend of high liturgy and spontaneous charismatic offerings. The Holy Spirit is nothing if not endlessly creative! The charismatic movement, with all its variety, including also faults and missteps, is calling the church to more fully realize its trinitarian faith, to expect and experience in everyday life the presence and work and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Continued......

Now, God does not do foolish or unnecessary things/QUOTE

Then by your own confession, you are not of God. signed/WELS

Abiding · Sep 11, 2013

Stephen63 said:

crossnote · Sep 11, 2013

GreenNnice said:

Why don't you show by Scripture why you disagree with SarahM777? After all you are dealing with a movement that held to Sola Scriptura not sola persona opinio.

SarahM777 · Sep 11, 2013

Originally Posted by SarahM777

Cont

It Is Contrary to the Holy Scriptures, and Therefore Dangerous to the Salvation of Men, to
Teach:
1. That God desires every Christian, following Baptism, to have a “second experience” such as
the “baptism with the Spirit.”
Huh? The Holy Spirit is in you, a 'seal of our inheritance,' this should be understood from Ephesians 1, sarah7s
2. That the so-called “gifts of the Spirit” are external signs by which we can assure ourselves
that we have faith, are living in God’s grace, or have the Spirit of God.
Huh? Nice word , "so-called," Christ used it to describe Satain's 'deep secrets' in Revelation 2, sarah7s. But, yeah, huh?
Who believes such things seal our salvation, they are just a PART of those whose lives in Him believe AND RECEIVE
3. That God promises every Christian such gifts as speaking in tongues, healing, discerning of
spirits, and prophesy and that God has given such a promise as a part of the “full” or
“complete Gospel.”
Huh? Again, where in Carmen in San Diego do you see this as Truth in Scripture. Ridiculous thought. He promises NO such thing, Paul doesn't even want us to interpret, He just wants us to save sinners to Christ, just like what Jesus did
4. That a “conversion experience,” “baptism with the Spirit,” or other inner religious experience
is necessary for, or should be urged upon, Christians in order that they may be certain either
of having faith and salvation or of the indwelling of God’s Spirit.
Noooooo. Who tells you, this ? what kind of brainwashing to others' denominations are you being fed, sarah7s
Again, God says NO such thing in Scripture, we are to accept Him and believe in Him and have faith in Him for salvation, thats Ephesians 101, or, er, Ephesians 2: 8-9. And don';t forget 10 , we are created to bring glory to God, that is OUR soul purpose on Earth, and yes, saving sinners is bringing glory to Christ. EVERY THING--there is not anything that counts contraire to this 'golorification' Truth--EVERYTHING we do, won't bring glory to Christ if we let 'it.' Whatever we who are His do, who are in Him, walking with Him, as Holy Scripture says, we are to DO FOR THE GLORY OF GOD
5. That a Christian who has not had such an experience either has an incomplete faith, is
unconverted and is still living under the rule of sin, or has only accepted Christ as his Savior
but not as his Lord.
Noooo, pentecostals do not say this, we understand that the Holy Spirit experience is a personal experience and becomes and deepens the MOMENT a person 'receives' Him in faith. But, for salvation? Nooooo. That's judgment, NO ONE who is a followe of His is to JUDGE another's salvation and eternal destination but Christ Himself when it comes to HOW WE GET TO HEAVEN past, you got it , understanding God's grace through faith He's GIVEN US
6. That the sanctification of a Christian is incomplete unless he possesses the gift of speaking in
tongues.
Balogney . Pentecostals do NOT believe this and no Christian who follows Him should believe this stufffed 'meat.'
That means they are NOT ready for the meat of the Word and are still inside their own judgmentalism and needing 'milk,' as Paul so aptly says in Scripture , 1 Cor. 1 , to be exact
7. That God promises healing and health to every Christian in this life and that, if such healing
does not occur, it is due to a lack of faith.
More balogney. Who says this stuff to you, sarah7s, makes you think others in Christ THINK of you in this condescending, even condemning way Makes no sense, that is not Christianity to say that faith is an ashaming act. Get close to my ear, milady: IT NEVER IS THAT WAY Never Not my God and not yours either
8. That God gives guidance and leadership to the church today through visions and dreams or
direct prophecy.

First Go back and read they said. What they said is that if one is teaching these things it is contrary to scripture.
So are you agreeing that when one teaches those things they are against what it says in scripture? (That is what contrary means) Where do they say Pentecostals?

presidente · Sep 11, 2013

I believe this is the document I read bits and pieces of several days ago that I referred to. The reason it was written is because a portion of the denomination and some of the pastors are Charismatics.

I have some comments on it.

SarahM777 said:

It Is Contrary to the Holy Scriptures, and Therefore Dangerous to the Salvation of Men, to Teach

I'm not expert on Lutheran Charismatics, but my impression is that the belief that speaking in tongues, etc. is to offer some sort of assurance of salvation is not a typical Charismatic belief among Lutherans any more than it is among other Charismatics. There are some Oneness Pentecostal churches that think that the saved will speak in tongues. That movement split off into its own thing early in the history of the movement. The vast majority of Pentecostal denominations do not teach tongues as a sign of salvation, and the vast majority are Trinitarian. I read several years ago that about 5% of Pentecostals are Oneness. But I believe the Charismatic movement is much larger than the Pentecostal movement.

I don't agree with the 'initial evidence doctrine' either, btw.

I can't think of any group I've heard of or encountered that teaches this.

Point 8 seems to be a rather dangerous conclusion. The author said it was contrary to scripture. But if we look at scripture, the Spirit gives visions and dreams 'in the last days.' Who does the Spirtit give them to? Young men and old men. Or we could translate that as 'elders', the same word used to refer to the elders of the Jewish community or the overseers of the church.

If we look at the example of scripture, Peter and Paul both received direction through visions. Paul went to Macedonia after seeing a vision.

So it would seem the author here says the opposite of what scripture shows us about dreams and visions. No wonder he offers no scripture to support his case.

presidente · Sep 11, 2013

Sarah,
If you'll notice, the wording of the document seems to allow for the baptism of the Holy Spirit to manifest in supernatural ways in the believer but that this is not 'necessarily' the case.

If it's the article I'm thinking of, without digging into it, posting from memory, it expressed concern that Lutherans should focus on Lutheran theology in regard to the word and the sacrament. The idea that someone would say speaking in tongues or some other manifestation of the Spirit would lead to loving his neighbor more, praying more, etc., in the author's mind, made it sound like it was a means of grace, a sacrament, and that it was inappropriate to think that way about gifts, but rather about the word and the sacraments of baptism and communion only.

I started thinking about that. It seemed like the author is more concerned with 'theology' than Bible. The debate about how many 'sacraments' there are isn't really a Biblical debate. It's a historical theological debate. No doubt, it was important for ex-monk reformers who had broken their vows of chastity and married 500 years ago who wanted to argue that holy orders weren't a sacrament.

If a sacrament is a means through which God's grace effects us, why say there are only two sacraments? Is this a truly 'sola scriptura' view? Does the scripture provide that narrow a view of God's grace?

The thing that struck me when I read the article where author seemed to have a problem with God's grace working through gifts was the fact that 'charismata' --translated 'spiritual gift' is so closely related to the Greek word for grace, 'charisma'. I've read them described as 'gracelets' in fact, an attempt to translation the relationship between the two Greek words.

And there are verses about spiritual gifts that mention grace as well

Romans 12
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;[SUP]7 [/SUP]Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Here, spiritual gifts are described in terms of grace again.
Ephesians 4

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[SUP]9 [/SUP](Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Here we see that by using spiritual gifts, we steward the grace of God.

I Peter 4

[SUP]10 [/SUP]As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Here, we see men stewarding God's grace through exercising spiritual gifts. The first example is the ministry of the word, so that part doesn't present a problem for folks who say God's grace only works through 'the word and sacraments.' But notice that Peter lists another category of gifts, ministering. Those who exercise these gifts also steward God's grace. And God's grace (charis) is manifold. We learn in I Corinthians that believers have a wide variety of gifts.

I don't see how the apostles' teaching on spiritual gifts supports the ideas of those who say that God's grace only works through the word, baptism, and the Lord's Supper. It seems the debate on sacraments relies on a line of reasoning from theology, but sometimes ignores the scripture. And sometimes those who say 'sola scriptura' don't really live by that.

It seems to me that the argument against spiritual gifts having a positive impact on one's life are contrary to the idea that God's grace works exclusively or nearly exclusively through communion, baptism, and 'the Word' (probably with a very narrow meaning of that word) is based on historical theological reasoning, but ignores what the Bible actually says.

SarahM777 · Sep 11, 2013

presidente said:

UMM Where does Paul say in the passage that the rest of the gifts would end? Paul limits it to certain gifts,Paul never ever says all in that passage. Notice not once did Paul even mention a single gift that would show love in action. The ONLY gifts he mentions are gifts that were used as a SIGN. But never any of the other gifts. You cannot force to make it say ALL because he never says all,he only points to certain gifts used as signs,nothing more.

Please show me were Paul says ALL THE GIFTS will end

1 Corinthians 13

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes,what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

presidente · Sep 11, 2013

SarahM777 said:

I'm not arguing that any of the gifts have ceased. I'm not sure which part of my post you are responding to. My point was that I did not agree with the idea that believers can't be influenced by God's grace through someone's spiritual gift, even if it is not directly ministering the word.

Any gift properly used should show love in action. Don't you think supernatural healing and miracles showed love in action?

Paul says whether there be tongues, they shall cease. The Bible says nothing about gifts of healings or the working of miracles ceasing.

I know some people want to create this 'sign gift' bucket without any real justification from scripture. Then they can throw all the gifts that conflict with their materialistic Scooby Doo mentality into that bucket and say if one 'sign gift' ceases, they all cease. But the Bible doesn't teach such a thing.

I'm not. I probably wrote about gifts ceasing to refer to any and all that people want to argue about. Most cessationists don't believe all the gifts cease, just the ones that are uncomfortable for them.

That's not my argument.

SarahM777 · Sep 11, 2013

presidente said:

Sorry but John is quite clear Jesus preformed signs,John states it 11 times. Acts states 9 times that the apostles were doing signs and wonders. So no less then 20 times does the Bible point that the things they were doing were SIGNS.

Stephen63 · Sep 11, 2013

Acts 11:17 (KJV)[SUP]17[/SUP] Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? [SUP]18[/SUP] When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Romans 11:29 (KJV)[SUP]29[/SUP] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Romans 12:5 (KJV)[SUP]5[/SUP] So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.[SUP]6[/SUP] Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; [SUP]7[/SUP] Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

1 Corinthians 12:1 (KJV)[SUP]1[/SUP] Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. [SUP]2[/SUP] Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. [SUP]3[/SUP] Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. [SUP]4[/SUP] Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. [SUP]5[/SUP] And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. [SUP]6[/SUP] And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.[SUP]7[/SUP] But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. [SUP]8[/SUP] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; [SUP]9[/SUP] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; [SUP]10[/SUP] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (KJV)[SUP]11[/SUP] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

1 Corinthians 12:27 (KJV)[SUP]27[/SUP] Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. [SUP]28[/SUP] And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [SUP]29[/SUP] Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? [SUP]30[/SUP] Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?[SUP]31[/SUP] But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 14:1 (KJV)[SUP]1[/SUP] Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. [SUP]2[/SUP] For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. [SUP]3[/SUP] But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. [SUP]4[/SUP] He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.[SUP]5[/SUP] I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:12 [SUP]12[/SUP] Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

1 Corinthians 14:15 (KJV)[SUP]15[/SUP] What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

1 Corinthians 14:38 (KJV)[SUP]38[/SUP] But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.[SUP]39[/SUP] Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Ephesians 4:8 (KJV)[SUP]8[/SUP] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [SUP]9[/SUP] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [SUP]10[/SUP] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) [SUP]11[/SUP] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers[SUP]12[/SUP] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [SUP]13[/SUP] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [SUP]14[/SUP] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [SUP]15[/SUP] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [SUP]16[/SUP] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

1 Timothy 4:14 (KJV)[SUP]14[/SUP] Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

2 Timothy 1:6 (KJV)[SUP]6[/SUP] Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

Hebrews 2:1 (KJV)[SUP]1[/SUP] Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. [SUP]2[/SUP] For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; [SUP]3[/SUP] How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; [SUP]4[/SUP] God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

James 1:17 (KJV)[SUP]17[/SUP] Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

ALL OF THESE VERSES SPEAK PLAINLY. NONE OF THEM SPEAK OF A TEMPORARY WORK OF ANY GIFTS. NOT A SINGLE INDICATION OF THEM ENDING. YET, THOSE WHO SAY THEY BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES DON'T BELIEVE THEM. NEARY EVERY ONE OF THESE SCRIPTURES ARE WRITTEN OFF AS USEABLE TO THE MODERN CHURCH.

Blind guides! Doing whatever is necessary, pulling out all stops to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

If you only stated what you believed, instead of forcing your dogma down other's throats, perhaps we could just agree to disagree. But no, argue till the end that you're right, and everybody else is wrong. Forcing your teaching on others to accept is not Biblical. I notice that other real issues and false doctrines in the church, such as Chrislam, Universalism, purpose driven church heresy, and a multitude of others all go unnoticed. It's as if the only real issue with you is the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. We could all come together against these others, because most of us believe the same against them.

But that's not the true purpose of this is it?

Suppressing the work of the Holy Spirit, sowing seeds of unbelief in the church, is heresy to say the least, and brings damnation to those who teach it.
Mark 3:29 (KJV) [SUP]29 [/SUP]But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Making claims against the work of the Spirit, & against those who exercise those gifts is INDEED blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 2:1-3 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP]But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

If one thousand trillion "christians" down through history didn't believe it or show fruit of it, & if one thousand trillion "christians" abuse it or turn it into a circus, GOD'S WORD IS STILL TRUE & CHANGES NOT.

Romans 3:3-4 (KJV) [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? [SUP]4 [/SUP]God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

May God have mercy on your souls.

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