THE BRIDE OF CHRIST

[watcher2013]

I do not know you or if you actually believe or just scooting around here bringing up things straining out a gnat, causing me, or anyone to swallow a camel, or you are swallowing the camel. God knows your heart, your motive and mine as well.
Do not know why you are being strenuous on the Law of Moses and God? It seems you are splitting hairs
I neither take advantage of the grace as an excuse to sin nor am I under the curse of the Law as in the letter of.
I know this:
Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Thanking God in and through Son, Christ I am married today in the Spirit of God loving all as he loved me
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Luke 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

I am thankful that by God through Son that we are freed form the curse of the Law that showed us our sinfulnees, trhe Law itself being perfect, yet when it flows through flesh sinfulness of the flesh is revealed, and we see our need for a perfect Savior Christ Jesus
So cutting through all the chase do we agree here or not?

I do not know you either... my respond was related to your post:

That is what Paul is trying so hard to get across to us those that beleive God. By Faith we are his, made righteous in him and not by trying to obey Law

The response was to clarify the very basic of Who are those who Believed..
a. There are those who were under the Law...who were trying to obey the Law (Children of Israel)
b. and There are those who were not under the Law and yet they believed (Gentiles)

The reason why I asked you If you are a Jewish believer...

 

[homwardbound]

Some of you here believe we should follow the laws of the Old Testament. The 'laws' you quoted . The Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians.

Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on us today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15).

In place of the Old Testament law, we are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:40). Now, this does not mean the Old Testament law is irrelevant today. Many of the commands in the Old Testament law fall into the categories of “loving God” and “loving your neighbor.” The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor. At the same time, to say that the Old Testament law applies to Christians today is incorrect. The Old Testament law is a unit (James 2:10). Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some of it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.

We are in agreement:
You understand this because you understand the Laws purpose, not all do, and need to. A lot of people, are working in the energy of their own flesh and are very frustrated and stressed out and worried, over whether they are complete in Christ. Because on one side they, we, us are told we are complete in God through Christ, as you state her and am glads for that.
then out of the other side of the mouth comes the "but" you need to do this or that. The "but" is nothing more that an billy goat that buts in and negates what Christ has done for us through the cross. We get busy at: Caught up in doing good works, leaving Humility behind and become prideful and boastful in our doings; over the Faith we had when we first believed and were thankful, entering his courts with thanksgiving and praise

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

And the above verse is from the First testament and holds true today does it not? So I am remembering humility today , And wanting to see in weakness, in humbleness to Father showing his grace is sufficient for me, and in my weakness Father's strength is made perfect. So I will gory in my weakness, having a messenger of Satan to buffet me 2 Cor. 12. to keep me from thinking I know, when on ly God does. My trust resides in Father through Son

 

[homwardbound]

In Acts 10: Peter introduced to Cornelius Jesus without introducing the whole Law...The Holy Ghost fell on them which hear the word...NOT THE LAW...

I am not against the Law...but against the teaching of those who by their post keep pulling the Gentiles believer into the Law...

Please qoute anywhere were I have done that, please, I only want what God wants. and only desire to see an do as Christ did in trust to father for the words to say and to do. As he said in Matthew to the Disciples I think is as well for us all that believe today
[h=3]Matthew 10:16-20[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; [SUP]18 [/SUP]and ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Yet some people need to be put under law to see through to God and then by what the Law showed them they come to belief, leaving the trying behind, and be a doer of the Love poured out to them, that started at the new heart given us by God through the cross, when we first believed
Ephesians 1:13
in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[homwardbound]

I do not know you either... my respond was related to your post:



The response was to clarify the very basic of Who are those who Believed..
a. There are those who were under the Law...who were trying to obey the Law (Children of Israel)
b. and There are those who were not under the Law and yet they believed (Gentiles)

The reason why I asked you If you are a Jewish believer...

Thanks I am a God believer through Christ who by his death made me:
[h=3]Colossians 1:21-23[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [SUP]23 [/SUP]if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

I am a part of the fellowship of the unashamed, I believe God and am safe and secure in God by God in reception of God free merciful gift , Son Christ

Born a Gerntile, yet God sees no respect of persons.

 

[watcher2013]

... Now I'll say something nice, my Christian sister. While we disagree on the church being the true Israel of God, we would both agree that the bride of Christ does comprise believers from both the Old and New Testament eras, based mainly on this passage, because the place where the Bride lives is the New Jerusalem, which gates have the names of the 12 tribes, and which foundation stones have the names of the 12 apostles.

Konroh,
I would like to response to your comment about the Bride:

The wife, the Bride is the New Jerusalem

Is it a synecdoche?

You see, John was shown the wife..the Bride of the Lamb:

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

And The rest of the verses. Describes clearly the CITY..THE NEW JERUSALEM... (with gates...with wall..with street)..That is your Bride...
What happens to the OT and NT Believers:

Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.


The Bride will always be the Heavenly City the New Jerusalem...(THE OT/ NT Believers) are the saved who will walk in it...The God and the Lamb will be the light of it...


The Metaphor is the "Marriage"...not an (Animal) marrying a building.

When God lived with his people in his City

God dwelling with his people in the New Jerusalem..
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

As you can see I disagree as to your reason,

we would both agree that the bride of Christ does comprise believers from both the Old and New Testament eras, based mainly on this passage, because the place where the Bride lives is the New Jerusalem

the Bride need not to live in the New Jerusalem..because New Jerusalem is the Bride itself...
and SAVED on the other hand will live in it...

Rev:21:10-27
Describes the wife, the Bride as the New Jerusalem
the OT/NT believers as the SAVED who will walk in it
the Lamb...The light of it

The verses contains Literal and figurative language, but fell short of synecdoche.

 

[Elin]

I don't have a problem with the New Jerusalem being 1500 miles by 1500 miles. That's what the text says, and I see no reason not to believe in the certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT. Do you?

God told Aaron and Miriam that he gave prophecy in riddles to everyone but Moses.

Interpretation of unfulfilled riddles is private (as distinguished from Biblical; e.g., Da 2;
Rev 17:15-18) and uncertain, for they can be, and are, validly interpreted by others
to mean things entirely different.

The book of Revelation is prophecy, therefore, its meanings of the elements within its
riddles, apart from certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT didactics, are uncertain to us.

The meaning of 1500 mi sq and high, larger than Israel, reaching into outer space, is uncertain.
The meaning of the 200-ft-thick (the length of two football fields) walls of jasper is uncertain.
The meaning of the gold as pure as glass is uncertain.
The meaning of the precious stones of the foundation is uncertain.

I would say the description of its construction is all metaphor and, therefore,
does not mean it is inanimate, anymore than the metallic statue in Da 2 meant
the kings and kingdoms were inanimate.

I have a suggestion for their meanings, but it is no more certain than any other private interpretation.

Overall it is the church, wherein God dwells within his people,
through Christ who is within them (Jn 14:23, 17:26, Ro 8:10; 2Co 13:5; Gal 2:20;
Eph 3:17; Col 1;27)
and in whom is the Father (Jn 10:38, 14:11, 17:21) [Father-->Christ-->saints],
making God and Christ the Temple within the city (his people).

It is a cube, as was the OT Holy of Holies, where God dwelt with his people
(Ex 25:22, 29:42-43, 40:34-35; Nu 7:89; 1Sa 4:4; 2Sa 6:2; Ps 99:1, etc.).

It is the people of God, the church,

God's treasured possession (Dt 7:6, 14:2, 26:18; Ex 19:5)

God's own personal inheritance in his people, the church (Eph 1:18; Dt 9:26, 29, 32:9;
1Sa 10:1; 1Kgs 8:51-53; 2Kgs 21:14; Ps 28:9, 33:12, 79:1, 106:5, 40; Isa 19:25; 63:17;
Mi 7:18; Ze 2:12),

symbolized in the twelve precious stones of the High Priest's breastplate (Ex 28:17-20;
Lev 8:8),

and in the gold as pure as glass, God's people, the bride, presented to Christ the Lamb,
cleansed and without spot or blemish (Eph 5:25-27).

My premise that the city is inanimate is based on the certain and unequivocal teaching that the city has 12 gates on twelve foundation stones,

Prophetic riddles are not certain and unequivocal teaching apart from didactics to explain them.

You clearly do not understand synecdoche and poetic and figurative language. You want to understand the one poetic statement that the New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ and throw out the rest of the details given about the New Jerusalem because
you think they are irrelevant.

No. . .

1) you do not understand metaphor when you say the New Jerusalem is inanimate,

2) you do not understand the difference between the uncertain meanings of riddles
and the certain meaning of non-prophetic NT teaching;

3) many prophetic details are not certain, and you mistakenly understand that as "irrelevance;"

4) you equate details of riddles whose level of certainty is given in certain NT didactics
(e.g., Lamb, wife, city)
with details which have no level of certainty from certain NT didactics; and

5) the truth of the matter is your uncertain interpretation is no more valid than my uncertain
interpretation presented above, although mine does enjoy much more Biblical agreement
with the actual prophecy (e.g., wife is the city), as well as
with its riddles(e.g., temple, cube, precious stones, gold as clear as glass).

Your insistence that prophecy cannot be understood is absolutely ridiculous. God spoke to Moses not in riddles, that verse is relevant to Moses' time. It's not a declarative statement for all prophecy throughout the Bible.

And you know this how?

I challenge you to find one OT scholar that would make such a foolish statement.

The bible requires that I be in agreement with it, not with "scholars."

It is for you to show that I am not in agreement with it.

Now I'll say something nice, my Christian sister. While we disagree on the church being the true Israel of God, we would both agree that the bride of Christ does comprise believers from both the Old and New Testament eras, based mainly on this passage, because the place where the Bride lives is the New Jerusalem,

Thanks, and no. . .your own prophetic proof text presents the wife and bride as the New Jerusalem,
not in the New Jerusalem, which text you alter to agree with your theology.

That's esiegesis.

 

[watcher2013]

Born a Gerntile, yet God sees no respect of persons.

Salvation comes to all...Whether you are under the law or Have not the Law...

 

[jkalyna]

Agree with u homwardbound, we are not bound by the law, and am rejoicing as my medicine is the joy of the lOrd which is like medicine, oh that's another topic. lol. *

 

[faroukfarouk]

I would say that the church is the bride of Chrsit.

Israel is the wife of YHVH,

The church and Israel are not the same.

Blessings.

 

[quickened77]

I would say that the church is the bride of Chrsit.

Israel is the wife of YHVH,

The church and Israel are not the same.

Blessings.

not according to EPH 2
11] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
[12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
[14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Why do you wish to rebuild the wall that Christ has broken down?

 

[faroukfarouk]

not according to EPH 2
11] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
[12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
[14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Why do you wish to rebuild the wall that Christ has broken down?

I don't accept your assumption behind your question.

So where does the passage you quote refer to the bride of Christ?

 

[Yahshua]

Foundation for my argument...

It is confirmed in scripture (and we all agree) that the "OT" points to Christ as fulfillment of that scripture...and testified by witnesses (detailed in "NT").


John 5:39

You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me.​

...and for full clarification (not adding to Christ's meaning here or taking away from it), at the time Christ spoke the above line he was referring to what we've presently labeled "Old Testament". So it's not twisting scripture to claim Christ said...

You study the [Old Testament] diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me.​

Hopefully we're all are in agreement on this point.


......


Next, we know that Paul wrote about Christ being the "2nd Adam" (or "Last Adam") in comparison to the Adam from Genesis, establishing a solid connection between the two men and that book.


1 Corinthians 15:45-47

So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven​

Hopefully we're all are in agreement here too.


.....


God says the end is told from the beginning...


Isaiah 46:10

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please​

The Hebrew word for beginning is "Bereshit", the SAME word translated as "Genesis" for the 1st book of the bible...and as we read all of Genesis, there's prophecy after prophecy of the end times, which are only confirmed in the book of Revelation: from the seed of the woman, to the ascension of Christ as 2nd in command, to the fate of each of the 12 patriarchs, etc, etc.

So it's also not a twist or stretch of scripture to say, "if the end-time events of Revelation are to be understood, one's should look back to what was explained in the OT, and even as far back as Genesis".


........


Amos 3:7

Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.​

Revelation 10:7

But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."​

Here we have a link between an "OT" and "NT" passage establishing & confirming a truth about God's ways. God does nothing until he first reveals it to his servants the prophets. Now if we let scripture explain itself, the original word translated as "reveal" is "Galah" (Heb.) and means "to uncover"...and matching this word to its "NT" counterpart translated as "announced" is "evaggelizo (Gr.) and means "to proclaim". So whatever God's going to do is first *revealed* (i.e. "uncovered; proclaimed; made known") to his servants before he does it.

Now I submit to you that his servants (his prophets) *clearly understand* what is being revealed to them because such is what "Galah" and "Evaggelizo" both imply; "to understand" (because God isn't the author of confusion), because a prophet's job is to *speak* God's message to warn people about God's pending action, which is exactly what he told John a few lines later...


Revelation 10:11

Then I was told, "You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings."​

However...the same can not be said for those who are not God's prophets; these people will not understand God's revelations, as they weren't meant to...which is only logical right? Because if "non-prophets" understood the revelations of God that would contradict Amos 3:7 because God reveals his plans to his *prophets*.


......


Now as a precedent, not all of ancient Israel were prophets, just like not all of ancient Israel were priests, even though all of Israel were "treasured possessions" of God. And it's the same with God's people today, because Israel was for our example (1 Corinthians 10:11) and God doesn't change (Malachi 3:6). So not all of us can understand God's revelation, but that doesn't imply none of us can. Prophecy is a gift - like other gifts from the Spirit - and not all of God's people have the same gifts (1 Corinthians 14)...

14 Pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy. 2 For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, those who prophesy speak to other people for their up-building and encouragement and consolation. 4 Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church.​

...accordingly we are to *rely* on those that do have the gift of prophecy...not discount them as "private interpreters" because it doesn't fit our held theology. It's what keeps each of us humble; to know that we all must rely on each other for the building up of this body. Instead, we are to "rightly divide the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15) to see whether the supposed "prophet's" interpretation is accurate (because we ARE to guard against FALSE prophets).


......


My Argument: The Bride is not yet formed from The Body...


Now if all of scripture is fulfilled in Christ...specifically the "OT"...including Genesis (as Christ is the "New Adam"), then the formation of THE Bride must follow the pattern of the formation of Eve (called "Chavah" in Hebrew, which means "life"; the goal we all pursue), Adam's bride. And accordingly there is one particular event I find that scripture shows took place, which - I believe - MUST take place for THE Bride to manifest, and it's the following rhetorical question I pose:

Before Eve was formed, she was "in Adam" as a part of his body. There was no distinction between she and he. There was only Adam's body; there was only the body of Adam. But in order for she to form, Eve had to be REMOVED FROM the body of Adam; she had to be "set apart" from his body to manifest. So I guess the question is "if THE Bride exists now, at what time had THE Bride "come out of" the body of Christ to manifest, if we all are still hidden with him *until* Christ's appearance?"


Colossians 3:3-4

3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ - who is your life - appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.(<= this is a link to my "glory" post on this thread).​

1 Corinthians 15:22-23

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming.​

All die because are were IN Adam's body at the moment of his sin. Likewise all who are *IN* Christ's body will be made alive...but if all (who believe) are IN Christ's body *now* [hidden in God], at what point have we been taken out of Christ's body to manifest into The Bride (New Jerusalem, The Great City of Light) to live WITH God (in fulfillment of Genesis 2:21)?

If we are still hidden we have not yet appeared in glory (with "glory" defined as the shining, immortal body).


.......


To support my argument, note that Paul calls our physical body a "building" and "tabernacle"; "house" and "home"...


1 Corinthians 5:1-8 [brackets mine]

5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle [house = "body"] were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands , eternal in the heavens [eternal building/house = "eternal body"].​

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven [heavenly house = "heavenly body"]:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle [tabernacle = "body"] do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body [home = "mortal body"], we are absent from the Lord [i.e. away from the Lord]:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body [i.e. away from our "mortal body"], and to be present with the Lord [context: clothed in our Glorified body from heaven].​

While the earthly body is our earthly "house" - a "building" made with human hands - the immortal body is our heavenly "house" (made by God). So what is a "city" but a great number of buildings, houses and homes all standing together? And what is a "Great City" but a Great Multitude of buildings, houses and homes all standing together?


Conclusion: So the Great City, the heavenly city - called "New Jerusalem" - is the Great Multitude of the believers all possessing their "Glorified Bodies"; it's the "place" that Christ went to prepare for us, saying he would return for us when he was finished (John 14:3). This is why the great city shines, because it's the *transformed* believers in glory. This is why it's larger and covers more area than any known city...because it represents ALL of God's glorified people. But we have not yet put on this glory, so "New Jerusalem" has not yet "descended".


Isaiah 61:10

I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of his righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.​

New Jerusalem is the Immortal Body.

 

[dcontroversal]

Agree with u homwardbound, we are not bound by the law, and am rejoicing as my medicine is the joy of the lOrd which is like medicine, oh that's another topic. lol. *

Now that is funny hahaha

 

[Elin]

Foundation for my argument...

< skip >

Amos 3:7

Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.​

Revelation 10:7

But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

Here we have a link between an "OT" and "NT" passage establishing & confirming a truth about God's ways. God does nothing until he first reveals it to his servants the prophets. Now if we let scripture explain itself, the original word translated as "reveal" is "Galah" (Heb.) and means "to uncover"...and matching this word to its "NT" counterpart translated as "announced" is "evaggelizo (Gr.) and means "to proclaim". So whatever God's going to do is first *revealed* (i.e. "uncovered; proclaimed; made known") to his servants before he does it.

Now I submit to you that his servants (his prophets) *clearly understand* what is being revealed to them​

However, the NT has another view, that inspiration did not bestow omniscience,
that even the angels didn't understand all prophecy:

". . for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
Concerning this salvation, the prophets that spoke of this grace that was to come to you,
searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances
to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ
and the glories that would follow.
It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves (prophecies were not for
their time)but you, when they spoke of the things (promised salvation) that have now
been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from
heaven. Even angels long to look into (intently) these things." (1Pe 1:9-12)

However...the same can not be said for those who are not God's prophets; these people will not understand God's revelations, as they weren't meant to...which is only logical right? Because if "non-prophets" understood the revelations of God that would contradict Amos 3:7 because God reveals his plans to his *prophets*.
......

So not all of us can understand God's revelation, but that doesn't imply none of us can. Prophecy is a gift - like other gifts from the Spirit - and not all of God's people have the same gifts (1 Corinthians 14)...

14 Pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy. 2 For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, those who prophesy speak to other people for their up-building and encouragement and consolation. 4 Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church.

...accordingly we are to *rely* on those that do have the gift of prophecy...not discount them as "private interpreters"

My friend, this is a fail.

How did we get from the gift of prophecy as "up-building and encouragement and consolation"
to "private interpreters" of prophetic riddles?

They aren't even related.

The "gift" of prophecy in the NT is not the same as the authoritative prophetic revelation given
in the OT, as well as in the NT by the apostles and NT prophets, who are the foundation of the
church (Eph 2:20; 3:5).

The "gift" of prophecy in 1Co 12-14 comes through any member of the church.
Sometimes it is prediction (Ac 11:28, 21:10-11),
sometimes it is divine directive (Ac 13:1-2; 1Co 14:29-30),
sometimes it is to instruct/preach/teach (1Co 14:31) and
sometimes it is to strengthen, encourage and comfort (1Co 14:3, above),

but it has nothing to do with interpretation of prophetic riddles.

You can't piggy-back on the NT "gift" of prophecy to get to authorized correct "interpretation"
of prophetic riddles.

......

My Argument: The Bride is not yet formed from The Body...

This is not according to the simple certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT.

The bride is the wife (Rev 21:9) of the Lamb.
The Lamb is Christ (Jn 1:29, 36; 1Pe 1:19).
The wife of Christ the Lamb is the church (Eph 5:31-32),

just as

Eve is the body of Adam (Gen 2:23)
and for that cause is the wife of Adam in the two-in-one enfleshment of marriage (Ge 2:24),
so the church is the body of Christ, the Lamb (Eph 1:22-23, 4:12, 5:30; 1Co 12:27, Col 1:18-24),
and for that cause is the wife of Christ the Lamb in the two-in-one enfleshment of marriage
(Eph 5:31-32).

And my friend, all the piggy-backing in the world cannot overcome this certain and unequivocal
NT teaching to make the New Jerusalem the immortal body.

 

[dcontroversal]

Foundation for my argument...

It is confirmed in scripture (and we all agree) that the "OT" points to Christ as fulfillment of that scripture...and testified by witnesses (detailed in "NT").


John 5:39

You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me.​

...and for full clarification (not adding to Christ's meaning here or taking away from it), at the time Christ spoke the above line he was referring to what we've presently labeled "Old Testament". So it's not twisting scripture to claim Christ said...

You study the [Old Testament] diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me.​

Hopefully we're all are in agreement on this point.


......


Next, we know that Paul wrote about Christ being the "2nd Adam" (or "Last Adam") in comparison to the Adam from Genesis, establishing a solid connection between the two men and that book.


1 Corinthians 15:45-47

So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven​

Hopefully we're all are in agreement here too.


.....


God says the end is told from the beginning...


Isaiah 46:10

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please​

The Hebrew word for beginning is "Bereshit", the SAME word translated as "Genesis" for the 1st book of the bible...and as we read all of Genesis, there's prophecy after prophecy of the end times, which are only confirmed in the book of Revelation: from the seed of the woman, to the ascension of Christ as 2nd in command, to the fate of each of the 12 patriarchs, etc, etc.

So it's also not a twist or stretch of scripture to say, "if the end-time events of Revelation are to be understood, one's should look back to what was explained in the OT, and even as far back as Genesis".


........


Amos 3:7

Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.​

Revelation 10:7

But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."​

Here we have a link between an "OT" and "NT" passage establishing & confirming a truth about God's ways. God does nothing until he first reveals it to his servants the prophets. Now if we let scripture explain itself, the original word translated as "reveal" is "Galah" (Heb.) and means "to uncover"...and matching this word to its "NT" counterpart translated as "announced" is "evaggelizo (Gr.) and means "to proclaim". So whatever God's going to do is first *revealed* (i.e. "uncovered; proclaimed; made known") to his servants before he does it.

Now I submit to you that his servants (his prophets) *clearly understand* what is being revealed to them because such is what "Galah" and "Evaggelizo" both imply; "to understand" (because God isn't the author of confusion), because a prophet's job is to *speak* God's message to warn people about God's pending action, which is exactly what he told John a few lines later...


Revelation 10:11

Then I was told, "You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings."​

However...the same can not be said for those who are not God's prophets; these people will not understand God's revelations, as they weren't meant to...which is only logical right? Because if "non-prophets" understood the revelations of God that would contradict Amos 3:7 because God reveals his plans to his *prophets*.


......


Now as a precedent, not all of ancient Israel were prophets, just like not all of ancient Israel were priests, even though all of Israel were "treasured possessions" of God. And it's the same with God's people today, because Israel was for our example (1 Corinthians 10:11) and God doesn't change (Malachi 3:6). So not all of us can understand God's revelation, but that doesn't imply none of us can. Prophecy is a gift - like other gifts from the Spirit - and not all of God's people have the same gifts (1 Corinthians 14)...

14 Pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy. 2 For those who speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them, since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, those who prophesy speak to other people for their up-building and encouragement and consolation. 4 Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church.​

...accordingly we are to *rely* on those that do have the gift of prophecy...not discount them as "private interpreters" because it doesn't fit our held theology. It's what keeps each of us humble; to know that we all must rely on each other for the building up of this body. Instead, we are to "rightly divide the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15) to see whether the supposed "prophet's" interpretation is accurate (because we ARE to guard against FALSE prophets).


......


My Argument: The Bride is not yet formed from The Body...


Now if all of scripture is fulfilled in Christ...specifically the "OT"...including Genesis (as Christ is the "New Adam"), then the formation of THE Bride must follow the pattern of the formation of Eve (called "Chavah" in Hebrew, which means "life"; the goal we all pursue), Adam's bride. And accordingly there is one particular event I find that scripture shows took place, which - I believe - MUST take place for THE Bride to manifest, and it's the following rhetorical question I pose:

Before Eve was formed, she was "in Adam" as a part of his body. There was no distinction between she and he. There was only Adam's body; there was only the body of Adam. But in order for she to form, Eve had to be REMOVED FROM the body of Adam; she had to be "set apart" from his body to manifest. So I guess the question is "if THE Bride exists now, at what time had THE Bride "come out of" the body of Christ to manifest, if we all are still hidden with him *until* Christ's appearance?"


Colossians 3:3-4

3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ - who is your life - appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.(<= this is a link to my "glory" post on this thread).​

1 Corinthians 15:22-23

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming.​

All die because are were IN Adam's body at the moment of his sin. Likewise all who are *IN* Christ's body will be made alive...but if all (who believe) are IN Christ's body *now* [hidden in God], at what point have we been taken out of Christ's body to manifest into The Bride (New Jerusalem, The Great City of Light) to live WITH God (in fulfillment of Genesis 2:21)?

If we are still hidden we have not yet appeared in glory (with "glory" defined as the shining, immortal body).


.......


To support my argument, note that Paul calls our physical body a "building" and "tabernacle"; "house" and "home"...


1 Corinthians 5:1-8 [brackets mine]

5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle [house = "body"] were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands , eternal in the heavens [eternal building/house = "eternal body"].​

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven [heavenly house = "heavenly body"]:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle [tabernacle = "body"] do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body [home = "mortal body"], we are absent from the Lord [i.e. away from the Lord]:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body [i.e. away from our "mortal body"], and to be present with the Lord [context: clothed in our Glorified body from heaven].​

While the earthly body is our earthly "house" - a "building" made with human hands - the immortal body is our heavenly "house" (made by God). So what is a "city" but a great number of buildings, houses and homes all standing together? And what is a "Great City" but a Great Multitude of buildings, houses and homes all standing together?


Conclusion: So the Great City, the heavenly city - called "New Jerusalem" - is the Great Multitude of the believers all possessing their "Glorified Bodies"; it's the "place" that Christ went to prepare for us, saying he would return for us when he was finished (John 14:3). This is why the great city shines, because it's the *transformed* believers in glory. This is why it's larger and covers more area than any known city...because it represents ALL of God's glorified people. But we have not yet put on this glory, so "New Jerusalem" has not yet "descended".


Isaiah 61:10

I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of his righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.​

New Jerusalem is the Immortal Body.

Very interesting concepts....You know a study of the glorified body reveals words such as celestial, ethereal and astral and combined with the fact that God is Light (be verb) and dwells in light in a permanent state of Eternity (as in he is eternal)...hit the speed of light=time stops=eternity.....


Anyway, the celestial, ethereal, astral glorified body which dwells in the light of God and in the permanent state of eternity WILL BE AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[konroh]

When the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense.

The meaning of 1500 mi sq and high, larger than Israel, reaching into outer space, is uncertain.
The meaning of the 200-ft-thick (the length of two football fields) walls of jasper is uncertain.
The meaning of the gold as pure as glass is uncertain.
The meaning of the precious stones of the foundation is uncertain.

Really, I think the meaning speaks for itself, it's literal, simple, easy to understand meaning. New Jerusalem will be 1500 square miles wide and high, with 200 ft thick walls, gold as pure as glass and precious stones being the foundation for the gates. Is it really that difficult to understand? It's not a riddle, not a dark saying. Why must you read into it more than what it is? Am I really eisegeting to say I agree with the very words of the text?

We have deep hermeneutical differences, we both think the other reads more into the text, but I really sincerely ask you, why must these details be uncertain? They are concrete, descriptive, involve actual lengths and heights, they give a picture of what the New Jerusalem will be, isn't is a great description? Beautiful, simple, wonderful.

I like the analogy of being like the Holy of Holies, the details you gave about gold and precious stones, that certainly gives meaning, But am I really eisegeting to say I believe these details are real and true, aren't I just being a Biblicist?

Please, I beg you.

 

[Yahshua]

However, the NT has another view, that inspiration did not bestow omniscience,
that even the angels didn't understand all prophecy:

". . for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
Concerning this salvation, the prophets that spoke of this grace that was to come to you,
searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances
to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ
and the glories that would follow.
**It was revealed to them** that they were not serving themselves (prophecies were not for
their time)but you, when they spoke of the things (promised salvation) that have now
been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from
heaven. Even angels long to look into (intently) these things." (1Pe 1:9-12)

But here you're creating a strawman. I said "the prophets clearly understand WHAT IS BEING REVEALED *TO THEM*", but you respond as if I said "prophets clearly understand ALL PROPHECY", suggesting I'm claiming their "omniscience". But note your example proves the actual point I made; it was revealed to the prophets the understanding they sought. God gives a prophet clear understanding of a prophecy he's given *to them*. Secondly, angels are not prophets, so they weren't to understand God's plan either or it would go against the following passages too.

Amos 3:7

Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.​

Revelation 10:7

But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."​

God reveals (uncovers; proclaims; makes known) his plan to his prophets...and it - the specific plan revealed to them - is clear to them (else they couldn't correctly proclaim it to the people).

My friend, this is a fail.

How did we get from the gift of prophecy as "up-building and encouragement and consolation"
to "private interpreters" of prophetic riddles?

They aren't even related.

The "gift" of prophecy in the NT is not the same as the authoritative prophetic revelation given
in the OT, as well as in the NT by the apostles and NT prophets, who are the foundation of the
church (Eph 2:20; 3:5).

The "gift" of prophecy in 1Co 12-14 comes through any member of the church.
Sometimes it is prediction (Ac 11:28, 21:10-11),
sometimes it is divine directive (Ac 13:1-2; 1Co 14:29-30),
sometimes it is to instruct/preach/teach (1Co 14:31) and
sometimes it is to strengthen, encourage and comfort (1Co 14:3, above),

but it has nothing to do with interpretation of prophetic riddles.

You can't piggy-back on the NT "gift" of prophecy to get to authorized correct "interpretation"
of prophetic riddles.

Well if the gift of prophecy is not the same from "OT" to "NT", someone had better tell God that he's changed.

Malachi 3:6

"I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.​

The gift of prophecy definitely includes interpretation in the "package" (so to say).

Witness 1: Joseph was given both his own prophecies (to see) AND interpreted Pharaoh's prophetic riddles.

Witness 2: Prophet Daniel was given both his own prophecies (to see) AND interpreted Nebuchadnezzar's prophetic riddles.


Secondly, the gift of prophecy does not "come through any member" (like you say) - nor it is a "catch all" gift including many other gifts - but is a *specific* gift to certain members (just like all other gifts are specifically dispensed to certain people by the Spirit), requiring us to rely on each other in this body. Let's use your referenced passage for proof:


1 Corinthians 12:4-10; 28-29

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

[...]

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
​

Notice it doesn't say "to everyone prophecy" or "God hath set all in the church...". Prophecy is a *specific* gift to those who receive it, and so we must rely on those who have it (because not everyone does), and then we must verify their sayings with our diligent study of scripture.

This is not according to the simple certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT.

The bride is the wife (Rev 21:9) of the Lamb.
The Lamb is Christ (Jn 1:29, 36; 1Pe 1:19).
The wife of Christ the Lamb is the church (Eph 5:31-32),

just as

Eve is the body of Adam (Gen 2:23)
and for that cause is the wife of Adam in the two-in-one enfleshment of marriage (Ge 2:24),
so the church is the body of Christ, the Lamb (Eph 1:22-23, 4:12, 5:30; 1Co 12:27, Col 1:18-24),
and for that cause is the wife of Christ the Lamb in the two-in-one enfleshment of marriage
(Eph 5:31-32).

And my friend, all the piggy-backing in the world cannot overcome this certain and unequivocal
NT teaching to make the New Jerusalem the immortal body.

With respect Elin, one labeling a NT teaching "certain" and "unequivocal" doesn't necessarily make it so as I'm sure you know. But since you also see that there's a relationship between The Bride of Christ and Eve of Adam, let's go back to Genesis 2:21...

I'm sure you agree with the general order of events:

a) The body of Adam was formed
b) A portion of Adam's body was removed from him and formed into Eve
c) Eve was then given as Adam's wife, where two became one flesh (in marriage)


Then we have in fulfillment...

a) The body of Christ was formed (with Christ as the head of that flesh and those bones; Eph 5:30)

...but when was the next step (event "B") fulfilled, if The bride is now married to Christ (event "C"), as you say?

b) A portion removed from The body of Christ to form into The Bride


I don't doubt that the "wife" of Christ is now *IN* Christ's body (just like the wife of Adam was *in* his body), but...

Question: When did The Bride come *out* of The Body in order to transform into said Bride...and when did The Bride marry Christ? Because if the bride is still hidden *in* Christ's body (as scripture says we are until Christ descends and we're transformed), then the bride hasn't been formed just yet...just like Eve. Eve didn't join as one flesh with Adam (in marriage) until she was first taken *out* of Adam and transformed from his rib.

 

[konroh]

Yahshua, I like what you've said about the prophetic gift. I do think the prophets had an understanding of their prophecies, but I think the deeper issue is just that Elin has a fundamental presupposition that prophecy can't or shouldn't be understood. Prophecy is a different genre but it should still be interpreted according to historico-grammatical interpretation. I'm not sure if Elin believes this.

As to the body of Christ being like Adam and Eve, I think we have to be careful not to allegorize too much. As Adam and Eve were one, so Christ and the Church are one. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

The beauty of marriage is it's a picture of Christ and the Church. To extrapolate how Eve was formed and how that applies to the Church is possible, but dangerous. I agree the Bride of Christ is still forming and Christ is preparing her for marriage, purifying her through the washing of the Word, preparing her for Himself. But was the Church formed because they were already "in Christ" and then they've been taken out of Him? Isn't it more proper to say that when people believe and become members of the body they move from being in the world to "in Christ?" So the analogy is not technically the same as Adam and Eve. We become members of Christ's body, His bride, loved and prepared for Him.

 

[watcher2013]

Forsaken and Desolated

Was the Church ever been forsaken or has it ever been desolated? I think the answer is very clear…NO and NEVER WAS…
How about Jerusalem:
Jer 4:29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
Jer 7:34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.

Based from the above verses, Jerusalem has been Forsaken and it has been desolated and history will agree with that.
Jerusalem has been literally desolated.

Isaiah’s version of the Bride:

Isa 62:1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.
Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.
Isa 62:3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.
Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

The fulfilment as to the timing of this vision was uncertain, however there are things we are sure of:

1. It was talking about Jerusalem. (verse 1)
2. Gentiles seeing the righteousness of Jerusalem (verse 2)
3. Jerusalem will have a new name. (verse 2)
4. Confirmation that it was indeed talking about Jerusalem because of the termed Forsaken and Desolate.( verse 4)
5. Jerusalem shall be Married (verse 4)

What we know about Jerusalem in the Book of revelation:

1. It is the name of the city of God, which is new Jerusalem (Rev 3:12),(a parallel fulfilment of no.3).
2. The Saved Nations (including gentiles) will walk in it (Rev 21:24), (a parallel fulfilment of No. 2)
3. The New Jerusalem shall be married ( Rev 21:9), a parallel fulfilment of No. 5

But to whom Jerusalem shall be married?

Isa 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

From verse 5:
We see Jerusalem sons (children) was compared to a young man (husband) marrying a virgin (Jerusalem, the Bride).
Incest? No.
Clearly it was a figurative language, and moreover;

The Bridegroom rejoiced over the Bride:

In verse 5, we can also see that God was compared to the Bridegroom rejoicing over the Bride, Jerusalem.

God as the Bridegroom and Jerusalem son (children) as a young man, is a parallel fulfilment of Jesus as (the bridegroom) being the Head, and the Church his body (young man) and the NEW JERUSALEM,THE WIFE, THE BRIDE, THE CITY OF GOD.

So Yashua, there is no need for the body to come out of the Head, because it is not the Bride.

 

[Elin]

But here you're creating a strawman. . .But note your example proves the actual point I made;
it was revealed to the prophets the understanding they sought.

No, the understanding they sought of the time and circumstances was not revealed to them.

All that was revealed to them was that it was not during their time.
No time nor circumstance as they sought was revealed to them.

No strawman.

I said "the prophets clearly understand WHAT IS BEING REVEALED *TO THEM*", but
you respond as if I said "prophets clearly understand ALL PROPHECY", suggesting I'm claiming their "omniscience".

If every prophet understands all that is revealed to him, then ALL PROPHECY is clearly understood.

And that does not agree with either the OT (Nu 12:6-8) nor the NT (1Pe 1:9-12).

Nor does it agree with the dismal track record of God's people in correctly interpreting prophetic
riddles before they are fulfilled, going all the way back to the time of Christ, regarding the nature
of his kingdom.

God gives a prophet clear understanding of a prophecy he's given *to them*. Secondly, angels are not prophets, so they weren't to understand God's plan either or it would go against the following passages too.

Amos 3:7 - Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 10:7 - But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."

These verses do not exclude understanding by all except the prophets,
nor do they claim the prophets will understand all of the revelation they receive.

You are reading that into the verses, not out of them.

There is no Biblical basis for claiming that prophets clearly understood their prophetic riddles,
while there is clear Biblical basis that they did not (Nu 12:6-8; 1Pe 1:9-12), and adding to that
is the dismal track record of God's people in correctly doing so.

Well if the gift of prophecy is not the same from "OT" to "NT", someone had better tell God that he's changed.

Non-responsive. . .strawman.

You are inaccurate regarding what I presented, as you are incorrect regarding what Scripture presents.

The gift of prophecy definitely includes interpretation in the "package" (so to say).

Witness 1: Joseph was given both his own prophecies (to see) AND interpreted Pharaoh's prophetic riddles.

Witness 2: Prophet Daniel was given both his own prophecies (to see) AND interpreted Nebuchadnezzar's prophetic riddles.

Yes, the only certain meaning of prophetic riddles are the ones given by the revelator;
e.g., Da 2 and Rev 17:15-18.

When the revelator doesn't explain the riddle, we have no certainty as to its meaning,
for prophecy can be, and is interpreted by others to have meanings which are entirely different.

Secondly, the gift of prophecy does not "come through any member" (like you say)

Were there any special qualifications, such as apostle, elder, etc.,
or were prophecies given to any member as the Holy Spirit saw fit?

With respect Elin, one labeling a NT teaching "certain" and "unequivocal"
doesn't necessarily make it so as I'm sure you know.

Agreed.

In the absence of any
a) certain and unequivocal NT teaching regarding it, or
b) explanation by the revelator,
both the OT (Nu 12:6-8) and the NT (1Pe 1:9-12) show that it is.

But since you also see that there's a relationship between The Bride of Christ and Eve of Adam, let's go back to Genesis 2:21...

I'm sure you agree with the general order of events:

a) The body of Adam was formed
b) A portion of Adam's body was removed from him and formed into Eve
c) Eve was then given as Adam's wife, where two became one flesh (in marriage)

Then we have in fulfillment...

a) The body of Christ was formed (with Christ as the head of that flesh and those bones; Eph 5:30)

...but when was the next step (event "B") fulfilled, if The bride is now married to Christ (event "C"), as you say?

b) A portion removed from The body of Christ to form into The Bride

This is bizarre. . .do you know the NT?

The church is the body of Christ now (Eph 1:22-23, 4:12; 1Co 12:27; Col 1:18, 24).
The church is the wife (which is the bride--Rev 21:9) of Christ now (Eph 5:31-32).

My friend, you've been cut loose from the moorings. . .the NT does not allow for such a bizarre notion.

So now uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles interprets what is certain and unequivocal
in NT teaching, rather than what is certain interpreting what is uncertain?

You don't see the absurdity of this?