A BIBLICAL EXAMINATION OF CALVINISM

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Amen .....been saying that on here for a while and unbiased translators agree.

They say, "Calvinism just has to be true, bless God! and any verse that has anything to do with salvation has to fit into Calvin's theory. Therefore it is up to me to defend Calvin . . . oh, and God too! Won't God be so proud of me? Boy, I bet this will put me right up in the front of the line when it comes to dishing out them golden crowns! Amen! Bless God!"

 

[trofimus]

>>>God is just using his tools to make it happen in the way and in the time that is the right for the best interests of all creation. <<<

Gee, yeah, trying to figure out how Davids adulterous sin and later murder and the death of a child is right for the best interests of all creation." Yeah, . . . no . . . sorry, doesn't compute. And my 'wow, this really makes sense' needle is all the way over to the left.

Pretermined, predestinated, prewhatever . . . same things.

Its not on you to figure it out. You are not the architect of the Universe/Multiverse. That your small human brain cannot grasp the depths of God's wisdom, is not a proof of anything. Do not be so proud.

"For my counsels are not as your counsels, nor are my ways as your ways, saith the Lord.
But as the heaven is distant from the earth, so is my way distant from your ways, and your thoughts from my mind."
Is 55:8

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Its not on you to figure it out. You are not the architect of the Universe/Multiverse. That your small human brain cannot grasp the depths of God's wisdom, is not a proof of anything.

Neither are you the 'architect' but you sure seem to have it all figured out. It must be nice to have all that knowledge so straighten out us little people.

 

[UnderGrace]

Neither are you the 'architect' but you sure seem to have it all figured out. It must be nice to have all that knowledge so straighten out us little people.

LOL "great architect of the universe" is used by freemasons.

Another default position, we cannot understand God's ways, that is objectively true about God, however, how convenient to create a

dogma and defend its veracity by saying it is beyond our understanding and it just has to be accepted.

 

[trofimus]

Neither are you the 'architect' but you sure seem to have it all figured out. It must be nice to have all that knowledge so straighten out us little people.

Actually, I do not spread hateful attacks on Arminius, Pelagius or 5 poins of remonstrants. You attack Calvin, calvinists, 5 points of calvinism.

I only defend.

Therefore it seems to me that you think to have it all figured out and to have the knowledge. You even try to judge who is saved or not. And still, if you cannot figure out what the sin of David was good for, its not a proof of anything, because you do not have the mind of God.

 

[John146]

Of course God wants an intimate relationship with us. That is another very important aspect of prayer. However, our prayer doesn't change His Mind. Did it change His Mind in David's case?

Now I know the classic example of God changing His Mind over fasting, prayer and repentance is Jonah, but I think we need to look closely at the text.
Jonah 4:4 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.

Jonah KNEW God was gonna spare Nineveh. That's exactly WHY he didn't want to deliver the message to them. The Assyrians were brutal and had destroyed the Northern Kingdom. Torturing and enslaving many Jews. THAT'S why Jonah didn't want to go.

God explained to him pretty well what He thought of Jonah's lack of desire to fulfill His Plan in the belly of a whale!

Actually, Jonah knew that if he preached the message of destruction to Nineveh, that Nineveh might believe God and in turn cry out to Him to spare them of this destruction. Jonah knew this was a possibility, so he headed in the opposite direction.

God had every intention of destroying Nineveh. He declared it to be. God changed His mind and did not destroy them based upon their believing His word their repentance.

PS: Jonah spent three days in hell, but that's for another discussion.

 

[John146]

Of course God wants an intimate relationship with us. That is another very important aspect of prayer. However, our prayer doesn't change His Mind. Did it change His Mind in David's case?

God only wants us to pray for relationship sake? Why pray for the sick? Why pray for the salvation of a loved one?

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

God only wants us to pray for relationship sake? Why pray for the sick? Why pray for the salvation of a loved one?

Well, of course we can't pray for our lost loved ones if they are not in the Elect super club . . . won't do no good. God does not like them so neither should we. yea?

 

[trofimus]

Well, of course we can't pray for our lost loved ones if they are not in the Elect super club . . . won't do no good. God does not like them so neither should we. yea?

You cannot pray for your loved ones if you do not belive in that faith is a gift or in God's soveiregnity, because God cannot change their will or heart.

You can pray for your loved ones if you are a calvinist because you know that God heard your prayers before the world was created and took it into consideration of whom to elect.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

You cannot pray for your loved ones if you do not belive in that faith is a gift or in God's soveiregnity, because God cannot change their will or heart.

You can pray for your loved ones if you are a calvinist because you know that God heard your prayers before the world was created and took it into consideration of whom to elect.

 

[John146]

You cannot pray for your loved ones if you do not belive in election or in God's soveiregnity, because God cannot change their will or heart.

You can pray for your loved ones if you are a calvinist because you know that God heard your prayers before the world was created and took it into consideration of whom to elect.

I pray that the gospel would penetrate their hearts to where they understand their need for a Savior. I pray that circumstances around them would show them their need for Jesus Christ. Ultimately, it's their choice. I can, however, pray for the proper seed to be laid and the watering of that seed.

 

[trofimus]

I pray that the gospel would penetrate their hearts

So, its God who makes the gospel to penetrate individual hearts? Ooops. calvinism.

 

[trofimus]

I pray that circumstances around them would show them their need for Jesus Christ. Ultimately, it's their choice. I can, however, pray for the proper seed to be laid and the watering of that seed.

if somebody got his heart to be deeply penetrated by God's gospel, its his choice, but the outcome is certain.

If somebody did not get his heart to be penetrated by God's gospel to the level of positive choice, its still his choice, but the outcome is certain.

So, you are still dancing around, but avoiding the logical conclusion that its still God who decides whom to provide the salvic level of gospel and to whom not. He knows that somebody needs to be convinced this much or this much to believe and He is the one who gives it or not.

 

[PennEd]

Actually, Jonah knew that if he preached the message of destruction to Nineveh, that Nineveh might believe God and in turn cry out to Him to spare them of this destruction. Jonah knew this was a possibility, so he headed in the opposite direction.

God had every intention of destroying Nineveh. He declared it to be. God changed His mind and did not destroy them based upon their believing His word their repentance.

PS: Jonah spent three days in hell, but that's for another discussion.

Cmon Brother! How can God change His Mind!?

He knows the end from the beginning. We CAN'T surprise God.

 

[PennEd]

God only wants us to pray for relationship sake? Why pray for the sick? Why pray for the salvation of a loved one?

Umm... Didn't I say that is ONE aspect?

 

[PennEd]

I wanna get back to my main point in this thread. If God did not give you the faith to believe, even though that's exactly what the Bible says, where does that faith come from? Nobody answered that.

I read people say faith comes from hearing the Word, but not everybody believes that hears the Word. So why do some people have faith, and others don't?

 

[Hevosmies]

You can pray for your loved ones if you are a calvinist because you know that God heard your prayers before the world was created

WOW

Now where is THAT in the Bible?

 

[Hevosmies]

I read people say faith comes from hearing the Word, but not everybody believes that hears the Word. So why do some people have faith, and others don't?

Because most people dont like the truth.
They dont want to come to the light lest they be exposed as SINNERS.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

trofimus said:

You can pray for your loved ones if you are a calvinist because you know that God heard your prayers before the world was created

WOW
Now where is THAT in the Bible?

lol. Let's see, we're to pray [ask] according to His will (1Jn5:14), but in the Calvinistic way of thinking, wouldn't this require us to have been there (before creation) to know just what that will ('decree') was, so as to pray "according to" it (meaning, praying only for those He willed/decreed [back then] to save, and not those He willed/decreed [back then] to damnation)?...

Confusing.

 

[UnderGrace]

I wanna get back to my main point in this thread. If God did not give you the faith to believe, even though that's exactly what the Bible says, where does that faith come from? Nobody answered that.

I read people say faith comes from hearing the Word, but not everybody believes that hears the Word. So why do some people have faith, and others don't?

People exercise their faith everyday, in people, in objects, events etc.,

Faith comes through hearing the Word of God, through the convicting and drawing work (to all people) of the Holy Spirit , and through responding to the revelation.