A BIBLICAL EXAMINATION OF CALVINISM

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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So, its God who makes the gospel to penetrate individual hearts? Ooops. calvinism.
Have you read the parable of the sower? The word of God can penetrate the heart of a lost man, but can be taken away from him.

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Cmon Brother! How can God change His Mind!?

He knows the end from the beginning. We CAN'T surprise God.
How can God change His mind? Scripture says so. God knows the end from the beginning. What does that mean, not how you and some others interpret it? God knew, from the beginning of creation, how things would turn out and has declared it in Revelation. The Lord will rule and reign forever over all His creation. God knew this from the beginning. Guys like you privately interpret this passage to mean God knew every thing in between including every man's decision. That's not Scriptural.

Did God know that Nineveh would repent and in turn He would spare them? Watch out, don't make God out to be a liar for He declared in forty days He would overthrow them.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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That is dealt with in the OP, and you would have seen it - had you read it.
I stopped reading the OP when I ran across really bad misunderstanding of scripture.

I really was hoping that you would explain a biblical view of Calvinism, but you did not. All that happened was your wishful thinking and misunderstanding of scripture.

Nice try, I guess. Massive fail though.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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His knowing every man's decision, is not the same as His DETERMINING every man's every decision (before time, as in, writing the script).



And His "DECLARING the END... FROM the BEGINNING" is different to both of the above-mentioned things, also. ;)


Elsewhere in Scripture "FROM [apo] the foundation of the world" is distinct from "BEFORE [pro] the foundation of the world"
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I stopped reading the OP when I ran across really bad misunderstanding of scripture.

I really was hoping that you would explain a biblical view of Calvinism, but you did not. All that happened was your wishful thinking and misunderstanding of scripture.

Nice try, I guess. Massive fail though.
Well I am still waiting for someone on CC to explain a biblical view of Calvinism since I will agree there are so many variations and interpretations that I am not sure which is the real Calvinism

Take the difficult of point of election and show how it is Biblically sound?

I think if a doctrine can stand up to scrutiny biblically and rationally then it is worth considering
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Well, what I posted yesterday seemed like a legit link (but who knows! lol):

[quoting]

A supposed quote by Calvin:

"Scripture clearly proves that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction."

-- John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 7, Sec. 2210
 
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I stopped reading the OP when I ran across really bad misunderstanding of scripture.

I really was hoping that you would explain a biblical view of Calvinism, but you did not. All that happened was your wishful thinking and misunderstanding of scripture.

Nice try, I guess. Massive fail though.
Same thing I used to hear from Mormons that I witnessed to. You'll never convince us!
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Well, what I posted yesterday seemed like a legit link (but who knows! lol):

[quoting]

A supposed quote by Calvin:

"Scripture clearly proves that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction."

-- John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 7, Sec. 2210
We maintain that this counsel, as regards the elect, is founded on his free mercy, without any respect to human worth, while those whom he dooms to destruction are excluded from 2211access to life by a just and blameless, but at the same time incomprehensible judgment. In regard to the elect, we regard calling as the evidence of election, and justification as another symbol of its manifestation, until it is fully accomplished by the attainment of glory. But as the Lord seals his elect by calling and justification, so by excluding the reprobate either from the knowledge of his name or the sanctification of his Spirit, he by these marks in a manner discloses the judgment which awaits them.

This is more from that same area in Institutes...
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Same thing I used to hear from Mormons that I witnessed to. You'll never convince us!
Well, when you are so obviously wrong that even the Mormons spot it, that is pretty wrong.

How do the Roman Catholics feel? This seems more up there alley.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Well I am still waiting for someone on CC to explain a biblical view of Calvinism since I will agree there are so many variations and interpretations that I am not sure which is the real Calvinism

Take the difficult of point of election and show how it is Biblically sound?

I think if a doctrine can stand up to scrutiny biblically and rationally then it is worth considering
Institutes of the Christian Religion is a Really long book.

To try and take everything that is said by Calvin and try to condense it into an easy to understand concept would be difficult.

The acronym TULIP does a pretty good job imo.
 
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Well, when you are so obviously wrong that even the Mormons spot it, that is pretty wrong.

How do the Roman Catholics feel? This seems more up there alley.
Whatever . . . like I am going to change any man's mind against his will. Lord willing others will not fall into the pitiful trap of Unconditional Election.

Yep, privately folks are quite grateful for the expose'
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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"The Two Goats of Leviticus 16" by Paul Wilson -

[quoting Paul Wilson - Biblecentre]

The Two Goats Of Leviticus 16

The "limited atonement" doctrine is built upon a premise that lacks understanding of the two views of the cross of Christ as regards His work, that is, propitiation and substitution. The types used on the day of atonement in Leviticus 16 are set aside in deference to a theory, a doctrine of men (be they good men or bad is not the point). On that memorable day, which occurred once a year in Israel's history, there were, among other similitudes two goats - one called the Lord's lot, and the other the people's. The goat of the Lord's lot was killed and its blood taken inside of the veil by the high priest, where he sprinkled the blood once upon the mercy seat and seven times on the desert sand before it. It was there above the mercy seat that God dwelt among the people, and as they were sinners He must needs have the evidence of death presented before Him - the blood was sprinkled there. This was propitiation - a satisfaction rendered to God whereby He could act in grace toward a sinful people. On the head of the other goat, the sins of the people were confessed by the high priest, and it was led into a land not inhabited, so that their sins were removed. This was substitution.
In a sense, both goats are one in the matter of sin - the one being slain and its blood presented before God, and the other bearing the sins away to be remembered no more - for without the blood of the one goat there could be no bearing away of sins on the other. Let us notice the words of another:

Denial Of Substitution […]

[…more at link; especially the FOUR sections following the paragraph above]

http://biblecentre.org/content.php?mode=7&item=892 [scroll down to find the above paragraph and following four sections]

[bold and underline mine]
 
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We maintain that this counsel, as regards the elect, is founded on his free mercy, without any respect to human worth, while those whom he dooms to destruction are excluded from 2211access to life by a just and blameless, but at the same time incomprehensible judgment. In regard to the elect, we regard calling as the evidence of election, and justification as another symbol of its manifestation, until it is fully accomplished by the attainment of glory. But as the Lord seals his elect by calling and justification, so by excluding the reprobate either from the knowledge of his name or the sanctification of his Spirit, he by these marks in a manner discloses the judgment which awaits them.

This is more from that same area in Institutes...
The elephant in the room is that man (professing Christians) deem God unfair (portraying the Romans 9:20 man) if he does not give every single man, woman and child a chance to "make a decision to go to heaven when they die." Yes, they have truncated the Gospel to a mere decision on heaven or hell. All texts of Gospel Scripture then must succumb to their whim that "all" entails every single person who has ever lived. If not God is again deemed unfair.

God has never done this, and he is not unfair in damning some, some never hearing the Gospel, and choosing not to convert and regenerate them. That is his justice on display, i.e. his glory. God is not obligated to save any person and owes no man anything.
 
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Whatever . . . like I am going to change any man's mind against his will. Lord willing others will not fall into the pitiful trap of Unconditional Election.

Yep, privately folks are quite grateful for the expose'
Unconditional Election is beautiful. What is pitiful is your false gospel, rejection of truth and God's ways in that you believe you were elected due to something you did, how you performed. What a travesty to the one true Gospel and revelation of Scripture. Your gospel, dear sir, is truncated, false, erroneous.
 
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At this point I figure we'll just have to see what side of the lake of fire we are standing on at the end. However, if I'm wrong so is Paul.

"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (I Timothy 1:12).

Paul used those I's also.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Institutes of the Christian Religion is a Really long book.

To try and take everything that is said by Calvin and try to condense it into an easy to understand concept would be difficult.

The acronym TULIP does a pretty good job imo.
Well I was more looking for biblical support rather than a John Calvin support.

I am sure you could easily defend why salvation is by grace and not by works, I have seen you do that with ease and completely on point and irrefutably.

However, I cannot see scripture supporting election, as in God chooses, I was thinking you as an individual would be able to speak to why you believe this is true using scripture.

...... I can go back to Calvin but I just do not see him making a good case either for election as he defines it.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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I just read the OP and a bit of first page. Well, not the parts that the OP didn't post, because I do not have time to read raving, garrulous posts ever.

One thing I did read in the very first post was this:
"All the seminaries are teaching Calvinism." Or something similar.

So, from one point of view, I would hope you are right. To be truly educated, we do need to know the different points of view. So, in my theology class, we took a few pages on Calvinism, a few on Arminianism, a few more on other viewpoints, and then we moved on. I confess, other than learning what TULIP and supralaparianism means, it didn't stick. At that time, anyway.

Our professor told us we need to read for ourselves, first the Bible, then study soteriology some more, then really compare it to the Bible and come up with what we believe. Of course, what we believe meant from the Bible. We had Calvinist and Mennonites and baptists of all sort, some Lutherans, charismatics and some Reformed Baptist. We had talks about these viewpoints, no one convinced anyone else. Everyone basically went back to their respective denominations, and preached what God told them, I would assume.

So no, most seminaries to not 'TEACH YOU TO BE CALVINIST," which is what I think you meant. If you went to a Presbyterian or Reformed seminary, they would emphasize it, sure. But, most seminaries feel they need to teach you to learn to properly read the Bible, you know exegesis, hermeneutics, original languages and you decide what you believe.

I will say, I have read a lot on the Reformed view, and I have definitely moved much closer to it. I went to Arminian churches the first 15 years I was saved. I thought it was a horrible doctrine. I knew people who could not feel that they were ever good enough to be saved, or stay saved. What a terrible way to leave people. Because a real Christian will know they can never be good enough to either be saved, maintain it. But when we rely totally on God, we can walk with the Lord all the days of our lives.

Eternal security of the believer is so important to our walk with God. And if people say they are saved and then willfully commit sin, I have no problem saying, "they never were with us."

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, because if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But they went out from us to demonstrate that all of them do not belong to us." 1 John 2:19

As someone who believes in eternal security, and probably most Reformed doctrines, this is a passage I thoroughly agree with below. This straw man of people getting saved and then doing what they want is not what Reformers believe. You simply have to follow Jesus, and the Holy Spirit gives us the power to do it.

"Now by this we know that we have come to know God: if we keep his commandments. 4 The one who says “I have come to know God” and yet does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in such a person. 5 But whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in him. 6 The one who says he resides in God ought himself to walk just as Jesus walked." 1 John 2:3-6 NET

I challenge the OP to say the above passage is wrong, because Reformed people believe it.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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PS Do you want to know what you have in common with many Calvinists? It's that women can't be pastors. So, you have a common bond. (I just figure this about the OP, correct me if I am wrong.)

As for me, I am a woman, I have studied the Bible for over 38 years now, including in the original languages, and I know how to correctly divide the Word. I preach and teach in my church, and people are always happy to hear what God has given me. Perhaps later we can argue about that? I have loads of things I have written from the Greek about why the doctrine of only men being allowed to preach is wrong.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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I have loads of things I have written from the Greek about why the doctrine of only men being allowed to preach is wrong.

Angela is all upset when women aren't allowed to preach...

and I'm still shocked we even let them read and write.



Crazy times.



...
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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How can God change His mind? Scripture says so. God knows the end from the beginning. What does that mean, not how you and some others interpret it? God knew, from the beginning of creation, how things would turn out and has declared it in Revelation. The Lord will rule and reign forever over all His creation. God knew this from the beginning. Guys like you privately interpret this passage to mean God knew every thing in between including every man's decision. That's not Scriptural.

Did God know that Nineveh would repent and in turn He would spare them? Watch out, don't make God out to be a liar for He declared in forty days He would overthrow them.
There is simply no where else to go with this if you don't believe God is omniscient. I'm seriously shocked to learn some Christians don't believe that.

God is Omniscient - Old Testament Evidence
“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).

“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).

“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).

“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).

“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).

God is Omniscient – The New Testament Evidence
“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).

“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30).