a born-again Christian can never (keyword: never) lose their salvation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
Why do people think that there are only two options -- Arminianism or Calvinism?

Since both are in error, there is a THIRD OPTION.

Ignore both those false teachings, and believe the Bible.

Satan has managed to deceive a very large number of Christians into believing false doctrines, because they have been snared by the doctrines of men.
How is Arminianism false exactly? Please be specific.
 

Nauga

Active member
Jun 7, 2018
117
30
28
a born-again Christian can never lose their salvation

to illustrate: a child can ask "what does born mean?", or "what does being physically born mean?" even though the child is already physically born, in the same way, just because a Christian can ask "what does receive mean?" just because of the mere difficulty in understanding it, and nothing else. Even with confusion in terminologies, Christians can still be saved.

if a child forgot his/her physical birthday, does that mean the child was never physically born to begin with? that's absurd. The same way, even if Christians forgot the day of their salvation, they can still be saved

for a married couple, if they are unable to make the vow the same way they did at the wedding, does that mean that they cease to be married? Definitely not, since that's not "grounds for divorce" and God hates divorce anyway. The same way, even if you are unable to pray the sinner's prayer like you did on the day of salvation you can still be saved.

if there's fights and arguments in marriage, does that mean that the married couple cease to be married? Again, for the same reason that you will have ups and downs in your walk with Jesus, but still, you can still be saved.

if a seedling bear no fruit, does that mean that ... ok, you get my point, it takes time to bear fruits, but still, you can still be saved.

any more illustrations will be more than welcomed in this thread, thank you
You said a Christian can NEVER lose their salvation. Do you have scriptures for that?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,632
13,030
113
How is Arminianism false exactly? Please be specific.
To be fair to Arminians, we must ignore what their detractors have said and focus on the Five Articles of the Remonstrants (1610).
http://www.crivoice.org/creedremonstrants.html

Of the Five Articles, Article I teaches conditional salvation, meaning that if a person does not persevere, he can lose his salvation. But the other four are not in error.

Article I
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end ... [THIS IS CONDITIONAL SALVATION]

The Bible says that we are "kept by the power of God" which means that we cannot lose our salvation. At the same time wilful disobedience or failure to repent do have serious consequences.

Calvinists generally misrepresent Arminians in that they suggest that Arminianism fails to take into account that salvation is a supernatural work of God, and that men therefore "save themselves". That is quite false. Here is what Arminianism says:

Article III
That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing.”
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,594
1,086
113
Australia
Yes please use the word of God to back up your points or they hold no power. It is written, thus says the word.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I see that being born again is a requirement for the kingdom of Heaven, but nothing that states that you can never fall or reject the Spirit.

On the Day of Pentecost, when, convicted of sin, they cried out, "What shall we do?" The first word of Peter's answer was, "Repent." Acts 2:37, 38. At another time, shortly after, he said, "Repent, . . . and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out." Acts 3:19.
Repentance includes sorrow for sin and a turning away from it. Unless we see its sinfulness; until we turn away from it in heart, there will be no real change in the life.

David needed to repent, he saw the enormity of his transgression; he saw the defilement of his soul; he loathed his sin. It was not for pardon only that he prayed, but for purity of heart.

If David did not choose to repent, the saving relationship would have been lost.

"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord
imputeth not iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no guile."
Psalm 32:1, 2.
"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to
Thy loving-kindness:
According unto the multitude of Thy tender
mercies blot out my transgressions. . . .
For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my
sin is ever before me. . . .
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean:
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. . . .
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
To be fair to Arminians, we must ignore what their detractors have said and focus on the Five Articles of the Remonstrants (1610).
http://www.crivoice.org/creedremonstrants.html

Of the Five Articles, Article I teaches conditional salvation, meaning that if a person does not persevere, he can lose his salvation. But the other four are not in error.

Article I
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end ... [THIS IS CONDITIONAL SALVATION]

The Bible says that we are "kept by the power of God" which means that we cannot lose our salvation. At the same time wilful disobedience or failure to repent do have serious consequences.

Calvinists generally misrepresent Arminians in that they suggest that Arminianism fails to take into account that salvation is a supernatural work of God, and that men therefore "save themselves". That is quite false. Here is what Arminianism says:

Article III
That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing.”
Then how do you reconcile with this conditional statement :
if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Colossians 1:23 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/col.1.23.NIV
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
Arminians defend their position militantly. They don't want anyone to burst their bubble. They don't know how to deal with the verses below
How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.
Ps 65:4
The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Prov 16:4
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mt 24:31
now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
Luke 18:7
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.
Acts 15:17-18
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8:28- 30
Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:33
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Romans 9:11
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Romans 9:15-16 (the whole chapter)
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:2
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Romans 11:5-7
but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
1 Cor 2:7
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Ephesians 1:5,11
knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
1 Thes 1:4
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2 Thes 2:13
Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
Titus 1:1
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
1 Peter 1:2
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Rev 13:8
The early elders created the Roman Creed. By 390 after much discussion they updated it with the Apostles Creed. There were 2 basic issues it was created to define. There was a lot of differing opinions about many issues. 1 what was these are the required beliefs to be considered Christian. The second was anything contradicting it would be considered heresy. Any issue outside of it was agree to disagree. Today these legitimate differences are shown by the different gospel preaching denominations. Both Calvinism, Armenianism, and the many variations are still Christians.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,632
13,030
113
Then how do you reconcile with this conditional statement :
if you continue in your faith, established and firm...
I will quote this passage from the KJB:
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


Verse 21: Believers have ALREADY been reconciled to God through Christ

Verse 22: Christ has ALREADY planned to present perfected saints to Himself

Verse 23: Therefore Christians are warned to avoid apostasy and false doctrines which would unsettle them.

In this epistle Paul warns believers about the seductions of Gnosticism, Ascetism, and Judaism, so this is what would unsettle Christians and lead them astray:

COLOSSIANS 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ...
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using, after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
 
S

Seedz

Guest
Did you notice that the parable of the Vine was mentioned to the disciples at the last supper, just after Judas had left to betray Jesus... perfect timing as Judas would've been a good example of a fruitless branch... a false follower.
What kind of false follower though? What is the determining factor that you are indeed a false follower? Does it take something as hardcore as turning in your teacher of the faith? Or does it start somewhere else in a bit more toned down manner? Is this specified anywhere?
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
Why do people think that there are only two options -- Arminianism or Calvinism?

Since both are in error, there is a THIRD OPTION.

Ignore both those false teachings, and believe the Bible.

Satan has managed to deceive a very large number of Christians into believing false doctrines, because they have been snared by the doctrines of men.
Satan has managed to deceive people into believing there is a third way, but the Bible says there's only one way.

If you believe the Bible, then you must believe that God is sovereign just as Calvin believed and Arminius denied
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
Personally I am a died in the wool Reformed/Calvinist. At 73 I have been a deacon and elder in 3 different Reformed denomination churches.(moved twice at the expense of my company.) One was a Reformed Church in America and the other 2 were Presbyterian PCA churches. I however have close friend adhering to the Arminian viewpoint. I have politely discussed the differences between the two views with them. We just agree to disagree. This issue is outside the Apostles Creed.
After much prayer and seeking the truth, God has led me to a Reformed Baptist Calvinist Church.

I visited many different denominations and carefully studied the Bible, compared all of the various Church confessions and God led me to believe that the Reformed Church is the closest to the New Testament Church.

In the begging Calvinism sounded unbiblical and it made God look unfair, but after considering the whole counsel of God it became clear that it was the most Biblically accurate position of all. Only a saved person can understand the truth of the Gospel, no amount of human reasoning or wisdom can unveil the truth, only God can reveal the truth to a believer.
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
I will quote this passage from the KJB:
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


Verse 21: Believers have ALREADY been reconciled to God through Christ

Verse 22: Christ has ALREADY planned to present perfected saints to Himself

Verse 23: Therefore Christians are warned to avoid apostasy and false doctrines which would unsettle them.

In this epistle Paul warns believers about the seductions of Gnosticism, Ascetism, and Judaism, so this is what would unsettle Christians and lead them astray:

COLOSSIANS 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ...
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using, after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Unsettle them back into being unsaved that is back to this: Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
Colossians 1:21 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/col.1.21.NIV
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
After much prayer and seeking the truth, God has led me to a Reformed Baptist Calvinist Church.

I visited many different denominations and carefully studied the Bible, compared all of the various Church confessions and God led me to believe that the Reformed Church is the closest to the New Testament Church.

In the begging Calvinism sounded unbiblical and it made God look unfair, but after considering the whole counsel of God it became clear that it was the most Biblically accurate position of all. Only a saved person can understand the truth of the Gospel, no amount of human reasoning or wisdom can unveil the truth, only God can reveal the truth to a believer.
Your hermeneutical contortions are not the Biblical truth. You hold Calvinism over the Bible. Grace is not irresistible :
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
Acts 7:51 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/act.7.51.NIV
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
What is Arminianism?
It is a Christian belief system directly opposed to Calvinism.

Calvinism vs Arminianism

5 points of Calvinism
Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

1. Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
2. Unconditional Election
3. Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
4. Irresistible Grace
5. Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

5 points of Arminianism

1. Human Free Will
2. Conditional Election
3. Universal Atonement
4.Resistable Grace
5. Fall from Grace
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
Still waiting for your response in another thread for you to explain how these support your position.
The Bible doesn't always state things in the most basic terms, sometimes one needs to employ some discernment. I'm sorry I can't give you that gift, only God can if you humble yourself and ask Him. You will never understand spiritual things using a carnal mind
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
Your hermeneutical contortions are not the Biblical truth. You hold Calvinism over the Bible. Grace is not irresistible :
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
Acts 7:51 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/act.7.51.NIV
Calvinism is the most Biblically correct of all the views out there, that's why only the elect accept it. The Word of God is foolishness to those who are perishing, they will never figure it out. It will remain foolishness to the end, so we believe that faith is a gift from God and He only gives it to those He foreknew.
It wouldn't matter how many scriptures I show you that support Calvin's view, you would still deny them if you are not one of the elect.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
Calvinism is the most Biblically correct of all the views out there, that's why only the elect accept it. The Word of God is foolishness to those who are perishing, they will never figure it out. It will remain foolishness to the end, so we believe that faith is a gift from God and He only gives it to those He foreknew.
It wouldn't matter how many scriptures I show you that support Calvin's view, you would still deny them if you are not one of the elect.
I would rather be one of God's elect by choosing to believe the gospel than one of Calvin's elect.

And despite what you might believe, if you believe the gospel, it's because you decided to do so.