A Closer Look at Ephesians 1:13

[SophieT]

Free2grace, Wansvic, 2Timothy,

Understanding all these things has been so stressful for so many years to try to find what really is the truth.

From experience with 100% certainty just cause someone believes does not mean they have the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is given always supernatural things occur. I met so many that did nothing and did not believe and God irresistably came and they experienced the things just like ACTS Holy Ghost experiences. Or they were led out of nowhere to get prayed for or baptize etc. No matter what the method, it only happens if its God. They all experienced supernatural things and it changed them, they did not choose belief or change themself. It sounds crazy that God controls but as 2Timothy says, if a man’s work or choice preserves himself then it’s not a gift from God that He takes 100% credit.

As 2Timothy said He keeps these mysteries unawares to the world. That’s why the scripture is mish mash of contradictions and confusion no one can agree on 😭. Instead of the truth being so evident and simple a child can see or that all can agree, it’s conflict of what is true all in Christianity and the world. It really crushes me inside because no one has any idea the real truth. And that the truth is predetermined and totally not good for vast majority of humans without their choice. And so christisnity as a whole is everywhere in their beliefs.

Only a tiny percent actually experience God Holy Spirit like Paul prayed over people. At churches you will never see the power of Holy Spirit like 99% of the time.

How can people think they have the Holy Spirit if they did not experience the things those in the Bible experienced? Why is it so few experience the Holy Spirit despite millions believers and those tryin to live for God?

No matter if it’s belief, prayer, baptism, repent, Holy Spirit only comes when God chooses. No act of man has any say. If a man believes or gets baptized or tries to repent, unless God does it and chose it then it doesn’t count 😭. That’s what Christians can’t see and it was absolute pain me seeking and seeing and shown by those who experienced God and others who were taken to hell and heaven and dreams/visions and revelations of endtimes and afterlife. It’s nothing like mainstream Christians think 😭. It’s not good at all for vast majority humans born. Cause if they are exposed to hope of God and knowkedge of hell or heaven and made to think they can choose, in reality they can’t. It’s predetermined for everyone 😭. I wanted God, love, the Holy Spirit and salvation so bad like as if every day was my last.

Even scientists and mathematicians found the only reality can be that we are in a simulation. Like a movie played out by a controller. They just don’t know that controller is God.

I realized there is a difference between those who experienced what those in bible did with supernatural things and all those in church who believe in their mind they have Holy Spirit but in reality never experienced the power that is required and only way to be changed acceptably to God.

And it’s so painful because all a person can do if God does not reveal himself or come to them is try to learn about God and believe and do what they can to understand and follow. If God won’t give the Holy Spirit to humans that do that when that’s all the power they have been given to choose and act, then is that all loving?

Gibson you say that you are unsure of your spiritual status

how then, can you post in a way that seems to suggest otherwise?

or perhaps you would like to clarify your belief?

When a person accepts Christ, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. people are confused about what comes after that it would seem

you can be saved and not speak in tongues. you can be saved and not water baptized.

ONLY way to be saved is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and accept Him as having died in your place for the forgiveness of sins and He is the only way to God. Salvation in Christ is through faith...or belief in Him and what He has done so that those who call upon Him and trust in Him for their salvation, may come to God and know they are forgiven through the sinless blood of Jesus

baptism in water follows and a believer should be baptized but not because someone told them to do so, but because their faith is genuine and they know the Holy Spirit is directing them that way.

works or good works do not save anyone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Free2grace, Wansvic, 2Timothy,

Understanding all these things has been so stressful for so many years to try to find what really is the truth.

From experience with 100% certainty just cause someone believes does not mean they have the Holy Spirit.

Well then, apparently you don't believe what Paul wrote to the Galatian believers:

3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

If the Holy Spirit is given always supernatural things occur.

Well then, apparently you don't believe what Paul wrote to several churches:

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1 Thess 5:19 - Do not quench the Spirit.

Paul also commands believers to "be filled with the Spirit" in Eph 5:18.

So, the problem is how to be filled with the Spirit. And what to do when one grieves/quenches the Spirit.

Considering the Barna Group surveys of evangelicals, it appears not too many really understand any of this.

No matter if it’s belief, prayer, baptism, repent, Holy Spirit only comes when God chooses. No act of man has any say. If a man believes or gets baptized or tries to repent, unless God does it and chose it then it doesn’t count 😭. That’s what Christians can’t see and it was absolute pain me seeking and seeing and shown by those who experienced God and others who were taken to hell and heaven and dreams/visions and revelations of endtimes and afterlife. It’s nothing like mainstream Christians think 😭. It’s not good at all for vast majority humans born. Cause if they are exposed to hope of God and knowkedge of hell or heaven and made to think they can choose, in reality they can’t. It’s predetermined for everyone 😭. I wanted God, love, the Holy Spirit and salvation so bad like as if every day was my last.

This sounds so much like puppet or robot theology. There is none of that in the Bible. Just to be clear.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul made the comment you reference. Again, one must believe in the Lord Jesus in order to be saved. Notice also the word of the Lord they shared with them prompted the group to be baptized.

Which doesn't prove that water baptism is required for salvation.

Afterward he rejoiced believing in God along with everyone else of his household. Also noteworthy is the fact that this occurred at midnight. Getting water baptized was not done as a public display.

Still doesn't either prove or support your claim.

 

[SophieT]

Water baptism is for those who are already believers in Christ. We are baptized AFTER salvation and not FOR salvation. We can also state we are baptized in water BECAUSE we are saved and are following the ordinance of water baptism

When John baptized he did not baptize so people would receive repentance...they were baptized because they repented

to state otherwise, is to confuse the entire teaching of scripture and sadly, confuse those who seek to understand why a believer is or should water baptized

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Free2grace, Wansvic, 2Timothy,

Understanding all these things has been so stressful for so many years to try to find what really is the truth.

From experience with 100% certainty just cause someone believes does not mean they have the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is given always supernatural things occur. I met so many that did nothing and did not believe and God irresistably came and they experienced the things just like ACTS Holy Ghost experiences. Or they were led out of nowhere to get prayed for or baptize etc. No matter what the method, it only happens if its God. They all experienced supernatural things and it changed them, they did not choose belief or change themself. It sounds crazy that God controls but as 2Timothy says, if a man’s work or choice preserves himself then it’s not a gift from God that He takes 100% credit.

As 2Timothy said He keeps these mysteries unawares to the world. That’s why the scripture is mish mash of contradictions and confusion no one can agree on 😭. Instead of the truth being so evident and simple a child can see or that all can agree, it’s conflict of what is true all in Christianity and the world. It really crushes me inside because no one has any idea the real truth. And that the truth is predetermined and totally not good for vast majority of humans without their choice. And so christisnity as a whole is everywhere in their beliefs.

Only a tiny percent actually experience God Holy Spirit like Paul prayed over people. At churches you will never see the power of Holy Spirit like 99% of the time.

How can people think they have the Holy Spirit if they did not experience the things those in the Bible experienced? Why is it so few experience the Holy Spirit despite millions believers and those tryin to live for God?

No matter if it’s belief, prayer, baptism, repent, Holy Spirit only comes when God chooses. No act of man has any say. If a man believes or gets baptized or tries to repent, unless God does it and chose it then it doesn’t count 😭. That’s what Christians can’t see and it was absolute pain me seeking and seeing and shown by those who experienced God and others who were taken to hell and heaven and dreams/visions and revelations of endtimes and afterlife. It’s nothing like mainstream Christians think 😭. It’s not good at all for vast majority humans born. Cause if they are exposed to hope of God and knowkedge of hell or heaven and made to think they can choose, in reality they can’t. It’s predetermined for everyone 😭. I wanted God, love, the Holy Spirit and salvation so bad like as if every day was my last.

Even scientists and mathematicians found the only reality can be that we are in a simulation. Like a movie played out by a controller. They just don’t know that controller is God.

I realized there is a difference between those who experienced what those in bible did with supernatural things and all those in church who believe in their mind they have Holy Spirit but in reality never experienced the power that is required and only way to be changed acceptably to God.

And it’s so painful because all a person can do if God does not reveal himself or come to them is try to learn about God and believe and do what they can to understand and follow. If God won’t give the Holy Spirit to humans that do that when that’s all the power they have been given to choose and act, then is that all loving?

Unbelievable . . . everything you wrote. But what is so incredible, is that unless a person has been Enabled by Christ, not only will "said christians" not understand what you wrote, but they will refuse it . . . all of it.

You, my friend . . . have been Awakened by God Almighty. And what is wonderful and amazing is that you likely understand the Power of God and you, therefore, have a proper and balanced Fear of the Lord.

Good to know you, Brother (or Sister).

 

[Wansvic]

FreeGrace2 said:
Water baptism is the symbol for the spiritual reality that has already occurred.

OK. But 1 Peter 3:20, 21 says -
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

In v.20 Peter noted that Noah + 7 were "saved THROUGH water". He didn't write "saved BY water". In fact, the water killed all the rest of mankind, plus animals. That is LITERAL WATER.

In v.21 Peter describes LITERAL WATER as a SYMBOL for the "baptism that now saves you".

So, being immersed in LITERAL WATER symbolizes the salvation that we have in Christ.

Consider that God used water to destroy sin on earth. And at the same time saved His people.

Baptism saves us through the resurrection Jesus Christ. Without Jesus' death, burial and resurrection getting water baptized would be pointless.

1 Peter 3:20-22
in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us — baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
NKJV

 

[SophieT]

Unbelievable . . . everything you wrote. But what is so incredible, is that unless a person has been Enabled by Christ, not only will "said christians" not understand what you wrote, but they will refuse it . . . all of it.

You, my friend . . . have been Awakened by God Almighty. And what is wonderful and amazing is that you likely understand the Power of God and you, therefore, have a proper and balanced Fear of the Lord.

Good to know you, Brother (or Sister).

how can a person who states they are unsure of their spiritual status be awakened by God?

you need to do your homework. you are encouraging someone who might not even be a believer as his bio states

 

[SophieT]

Baptism saves us through the resurrection Jesus Christ. Without Jesus' death, burial and resurrection getting water baptized would be pointless.

that does not make any sense

baptism saves us? you go to all lengths to say baptismal regeneration is not a fact then you state the complete opposite

only faith in Christ leads to salvation

water baptism is not salvation. we are to be baptized in water to identify with Jesus in His burial and resurrection.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Consider that God used water to destroy sin on earth.

Right. That's called a Living Allegory, as that really happened. But this is a representation of the Holy Spirit and the Work that He alone is able to perform. Symbolism. Gotta think about symbolism. From the start, the "apple" that Adam and Eve ate was a real apple; a real moment in time. But, what does that apple represent? Symbolism . . . we're got to always be asking ourselves what each Word means to the Mysterious Plan of God. This is a massive, Spiritual puzzle that we call the Bible. It is unbelievable! Never stop in your search for Holy Symbols and what they mean. For in by doing so, the Bible will never . . . ever . . . grow old. I would go on to say that when you see how the Bible is layered over and upon itself in so many ways, the deeper your understanding, the more Powerful this Bible becomes. And after a certain amount of knowledge and understanding is given, you may even find yourself shuddering with it in your human hands.

Symbolism. Never stop asking, seeking, and knocking. Never. You will never have all knowledge, for we are mere humans. Thus, we must be persistent and unrelenting in our dwelling upon Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Consider that God used water to destroy sin on earth. And at the same time saved His people.

I think you have misunderstood. God used literal water to destroy mankind, save 8 people. He saved those 8 people from the literal water by use of a very large boat.

No one has ever been saved by water. And 1 Peter 3:20 says "saved through water".

iow, the ark floated through the water, keeping the occupants dry. And alive.

Baptism saves us through the resurrection Jesus Christ. Without Jesus' death, burial and resurrection getting water baptized would be pointless.

There you go. But only the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Certainly not water baptism.

1 Peter 3:20-22
in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us — baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
NKJV

Right.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Because in the very next chapter Paul runs into another group of men that like Apollos know only of John's baptism.

The "another group of men" are the same folks who had been taught by Apollos ... that is why they only knew of the baptism of John. It's not "another group" as in separate from those who were taught by Apollos as shown in Acts 18.

Recall that Paul was at Ephesus for a short while. He was asked to stay, but Paul declined and left to go to Caesura, Jerusalem, Antioch (Acts 18:21-22).

Acts 18:24 - Apollos came to Ephesus.

Acts 18:25 - Apollos knew only the baptism of John.

Acts 18:26 - Apollos taught in Ephesus ... Aquila and Priscilla took Apollos aside and taught him the way of the Lord more perfectly.

Acts 19:1 - Paul returned to Ephesus after Apollos left to go to Achaia (Acts 18:27) and after Apollos had taught the Ephesians publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ (Acts 18:28).

Acts 19:3 - The Ephesians had not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost because Apollos knew and taught only the baptism of John.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Even though not specifically stated their confession of sin and shewing deeds of repentance points to something expressed in the word; prerequisites of water baptism (Luke 3:8, Matt 3:8, and Acts 26:20)

So now you're saying they needed to be baptized again?

After having been baptized unto John's baptism ... see Acts 19:3 - apparently Apollos had baptized previously. Although not specifically stated in Acts 18, Acts 19:3 makes it clear that the Ephesians had been baptized unto John's baptism.

Then you claim that Paul baptized them again (Acts 19:4-5).

Now you're claiming they needed to be baptized yet again (Acts 19:18)?

Is that your assertion?

Thanks ...

 

[Wansvic]

Sorry. But that's completely backward. It is no wonder that we don't understand the Bible, for we cannot speak to any of the writers to clarify what they're written. But me . . . I'm right here, and yet I am not understood. That, my friend, is unbelievable.

How is what I posted backward?

You stated: If water is necessary for something spiritual to take place, such as Salvation, that would mean that no one could be saved on the side of Mount Everest, nor could Salvation be possible if in the middle of the desert . . . where there is no water.

My response: Your comment is in essence putting limits on God. Do these people not have access to water? Do these people not bathe?

How does this not apply to what you said?

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

So now you're saying they needed to be baptized again?

After having been baptized unto John's baptism ... see Acts 19:3 - apparently Apollos had baptized previously. Although not specifically stated in Acts 18, Acts 19:3 makes it clear that the Ephesians had been baptized unto John's baptism.

Then you claim that Paul baptized them again (Acts 19:4-5).

Now you're claiming they needed to be baptized yet again (Acts 19:18)?

Excellent "study" and questions about More water Confusion, and,
I thought I had Already Been Exposed to all of it

 

[Wansvic]

If you think that individuals must "obey the rest of the message" to be saved, then you do not understand the gospel at all.

But, to clarify, what, exactly is included in "the rest of the message", just so I can better understand your position.


Define "repent".

Acts 2:38 was a specific message to the very Jews who were involved directly in the crucifixion. What Peter said to them doesn't apply to anyone else.

Here are some verses to examine.

Salvation:
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1: 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

No mention of obedience. Only believing (faith).

When man believes what Jesus did on the cross, God saves.

Belief is essential for salvation. The scriptures you reference speak to that point. However, obedience plays a part as well. Jesus and his brother James bring this to light in scripture. (Mark 16:15-18, James 2:18-23) Keep in mind that Jesus stated that the word he spoke would be used to judge everyone in the last day. (John 12:48-50)

Mark 16:15-18
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 .They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

John 12:48-50
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


James 2:18-23
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 

[Wansvic]

If you think that individuals must "obey the rest of the message" to be saved, then you do not understand the gospel at all.

But, to clarify, what, exactly is included in "the rest of the message", just so I can better understand your position.


Define "repent".

Acts 2:38 was a specific message to the very Jews who were involved directly in the crucifixion. What Peter said to them doesn't apply to anyone else.

Here are some verses to examine.

Salvation:
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1: 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

No mention of obedience. Only believing (faith).

When man believes what Jesus did on the cross, God saves.

While reading through the list of scriptures you shared I came upon John 3:36. I had never noticed it before. Thank you for sharing it. It specifies what I see clearly from others. It speaks of those who believe on the Son having everlasting life. But those who do not believe the Son shall not see life. This shows a distinction between belief in Him and believing what he says. ie, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

John 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
KJV

 

[Wansvic]

that does not make any sense

baptism saves us? you go to all lengths to say baptismal regeneration is not a fact then you state the complete opposite

only faith in Christ leads to salvation

water baptism is not salvation. we are to be baptized in water to identify with Jesus in His burial and resurrection.

Maybe my understanding of baptismal regeneration is incorrect. As I understand it baptismal regeneration is a Catholic belief. They teach water baptism saves in and of itself, void of belief and repentance. That is why it is an erroneous teaching. My thread "The Error of Baptismal Regeneration" makes that point and goes on to show water baptism is necessary but only along with faith and repentance.

What I believe is clearly seen in the word is that water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is required of everyone for the remission of one's personal sin. This is only possible after believing that Jesus paid the penalty for the sin of all mankind through His death, burial and resurrection. His payment of the penalty opened the way for individual's sins to be washed away through obedience to God's mandate.

I am not trying to be argumentative. It is just impossible to get around the fact the scriptures speak to this truth.

If this were not true why did Ananias tell Paul to be baptized and wash away his sins calling on the name of the Lord? This occurred after Paul received the Holy Ghost. (Acts 22:16)

If this were not true why did Jesus say, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved."? (Mark 16:16)

If this were not true why did Jesus say, "Unless a man is born of water and Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom."? (John 3:5)

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

How is what I posted backward?

You stated: If water is necessary for something spiritual to take place, such as Salvation, that would mean that no one could be saved on the side of Mount Everest, nor could Salvation be possible if in the middle of the desert . . . where there is no water.

My response: Your comment is in essence putting limits on God. Do these people not have access to water? Do these people not bathe?

How does this not apply to what you said?

Unbelievable.

 

[Wansvic]

The "another group of men" are the same folks who had been taught by Apollos ... that is why they only knew of the baptism of John. It's not "another group" as in separate from those who were taught by Apollos as shown in Acts 18.

Recall that Paul was at Ephesus for a short while. He was asked to stay, but Paul declined and left to go to Caesura, Jerusalem, Antioch (Acts 18:21-22).

Acts 18:24 - Apollos came to Ephesus.

Acts 18:25 - Apollos knew only the baptism of John.

Acts 18:26 - Apollos taught in Ephesus ... Aquila and Priscilla took Apollos aside and taught him the way of the Lord more perfectly.

Acts 19:1 - Paul returned to Ephesus after Apollos left to go to Achaia (Acts 18:27) and after Apollos had taught the Ephesians publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ (Acts 18:28).

Acts 19:3 - The Ephesians had not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost because Apollos knew and taught only the baptism of John.

Your understanding of a possible connection between Apollos and the 12 disciples may be true. I am unaware of scripture showing a specific connection. However, the points you make do not change the fact that Paul's message included the need for rebaptism (water) in the name of the Lord Jesus after belief in Jesus, and the need to receive the Holy Ghost. It is a parallel message of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38)

 

[Wansvic]

So now you're saying they needed to be baptized again?

After having been baptized unto John's baptism ... see Acts 19:3 - apparently Apollos had baptized previously. Although not specifically stated in Acts 18, Acts 19:3 makes it clear that the Ephesians had been baptized unto John's baptism.

Then you claim that Paul baptized them again (Acts 19:4-5).

Now you're claiming they needed to be baptized yet again (Acts 19:18)?

Is that your assertion?

Thanks ...

Please take the time to read the account. (Acts 19:10-20)These are not the same people as in the beginning of Acts chapter 19. They were occult worshipping people who finally believed and accepted Paul's message after seeing the miracles God performed through him. They confessed and brought their occult books and burned them as proof of their genuine repentance.