A Closer Look at Ephesians 1:13
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What Jesus never said what that water baptism was necessary for salvation. In fact, no verse says that.
Why take offense? I know what the Bible says. What others think isn't any of my business. I post to answer questions or make corrections. What people do with it is their business.
If I can be refuted, I'd appreciate it. I don't want to be wrong any more than anyone else. I do assume that everyone wants to be right. I can't imagine that anyone would be comfortable with believing something they know to be wrong.
Why take offense? I know what the Bible says. What others think isn't any of my business. I post to answer questions or make corrections. What people do with it is their business.
If I can be refuted, I'd appreciate it. I don't want to be wrong any more than anyone else. I do assume that everyone wants to be right. I can't imagine that anyone would be comfortable with believing something they know to be wrong.
FreeGrace2 said:But why do you think Jesus was baptized?
This doesn't seem to answer my question.
So, what does "fulfill all righteousness" mean?
This doesn't seem to answer my question.
So, what does "fulfill all righteousness" mean?
No it doesn't. Water baptism is SYMBOLIC of one's salvation and indwelling of the Holy Spirit and being born again.
All that water baptism might do is remove some dirt from the body. Just as Peter indicated.
1 Pet 3:21 - and this (LITERAL) water symbolizes (Holy Spirit) baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
We are saved by baptism with the Holy Spirit. Not water baptism.
Symbolism isn't the reality. I merely symbolizes reality. That's what it's for.
All that water baptism might do is remove some dirt from the body. Just as Peter indicated.
1 Pet 3:21 - and this (LITERAL) water symbolizes (Holy Spirit) baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
We are saved by baptism with the Holy Spirit. Not water baptism.
Symbolism isn't the reality. I merely symbolizes reality. That's what it's for.
The bible does make it clear that Philip's message included the need to be water baptized. See verse 12 and 16:
Acts 8:12-17
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Also, see the initial post. Paul's statement in Eph 1:13-14 is in direct accordance with what he taught and commanded of those in the Acts 19:1-6 account.
Acts 8:12-17
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Also, see the initial post. Paul's statement in Eph 1:13-14 is in direct accordance with what he taught and commanded of those in the Acts 19:1-6 account.
No, the passage does NOT "include the need to be water baptized", as you claim.
I've already explained that in the transitional period of the church, Gentiles didn't initially receive the Holy Spirit. And Acts 8 is an example of this.
btw, the text shows that "all the people" and Simon himself believed and were baptized. That's water baptism. It was when Peter and John laid hands on them that the Holy Spirit was given.
And Gal 3:2 and 5 and Eph 1:13,14 refute your belief that believers now receive the Holy Spirit WHEN they believe.
You need to deal with it.
I've already explained that in the transitional period of the church, Gentiles didn't initially receive the Holy Spirit. And Acts 8 is an example of this.
btw, the text shows that "all the people" and Simon himself believed and were baptized. That's water baptism. It was when Peter and John laid hands on them that the Holy Spirit was given.
And Gal 3:2 and 5 and Eph 1:13,14 refute your belief that believers now receive the Holy Spirit WHEN they believe.
You need to deal with it.
The scripture says nothing about symbolism.
Peter is making a reference to getting into actual water but not for the same reason as one takes a bath in order to remove dirt from the surface of the body. He specifies that water is involved; however, a spiritual transaction is what takes place when a person is immersed in the waters of baptism in obedience to God’s command.
The scripture mentions that baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God. Since God is the giver of the Holy Ghost of which we have no control, other than asking for it, makes it obvious this cannot pertain to the baptism of the Holy Ghost. What prompts a good conscience is one’s own behavior in obeying God’s command because we believe what He says is true.
Read the actual scripture:
1 Peter 3:20-21
“...eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”
Peter is making a reference to getting into actual water but not for the same reason as one takes a bath in order to remove dirt from the surface of the body. He specifies that water is involved; however, a spiritual transaction is what takes place when a person is immersed in the waters of baptism in obedience to God’s command.
The scripture mentions that baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God. Since God is the giver of the Holy Ghost of which we have no control, other than asking for it, makes it obvious this cannot pertain to the baptism of the Holy Ghost. What prompts a good conscience is one’s own behavior in obeying God’s command because we believe what He says is true.
Read the actual scripture:
1 Peter 3:20-21
“...eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”
You may want to go back to your posts to see what you actually stated. My comment was in reference to your error in thinking that Philip's exchange with the Samaritans did not include the need to be water baptized.
Your unwillingness to just accept correction and instead deflect is very apparent. You may want to stop doing that.
Your unwillingness to just accept correction and instead deflect is very apparent. You may want to stop doing that.
Precious friend, concerning the significance of water baptism?:
1) When it was in effect, In God's Previous Dispensation Of Law, it's
significance, and meaning was TwoFold:
a) It was FOR "the remission of sins," else Luke 7:29-30 is false.
b) It was God's Second Requirement for "the nation Of ISRAEL to
be a kingdom of priests unto God." {see #'s 4, 9, & 10 In 12 baptisms ...}
(2) When it is NOT in effect Today, Under God's Dispensation Of GRACE,
then the significance becomes one of Confusion among the Many
Severely Divided denominations {bondage to sin?}...
(3) The ONE Baptism That God Does Have "In Effect" Today, Has
The Significance of ALL Of The Following: God's OPERATION!
So, yes, Praise God, once HE Has FREED us from the bondage of sin,
And Made us ETERNALLY HIS Own, we should "Depart from ALL iniquity"
(2 Timothy 2:19 KJB!), unfortunately some do go back into bondage,
thus:
"Grieving and Even QUENCHING The ETERNAL Indwelling Spirit Of God!"
(Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19 KJB!)
but true...
1) When it was in effect, In God's Previous Dispensation Of Law, it's
significance, and meaning was TwoFold:
a) It was FOR "the remission of sins," else Luke 7:29-30 is false.
b) It was God's Second Requirement for "the nation Of ISRAEL to
be a kingdom of priests unto God." {see #'s 4, 9, & 10 In 12 baptisms ...}
(2) When it is NOT in effect Today, Under God's Dispensation Of GRACE,
then the significance becomes one of Confusion among the Many
Severely Divided denominations {bondage to sin?}...
(3) The ONE Baptism That God Does Have "In Effect" Today, Has
The Significance of ALL Of The Following: God's OPERATION!
So, yes, Praise God, once HE Has FREED us from the bondage of sin,
And Made us ETERNALLY HIS Own, we should "Depart from ALL iniquity"
(2 Timothy 2:19 KJB!), unfortunately some do go back into bondage,
thus:
"Grieving and Even QUENCHING The ETERNAL Indwelling Spirit Of God!"
(Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19 KJB!)
but true...So then, you reject 1 Pter 3:21?
Well, that's an interesting misread of Scripture.
And you misread v.20 as well. The text does NOT SAY "saved by water". Really?
Please explain how the flood waters that KILLED all of humanity minus 8 then saved the 8. That should be interesting.
Here is the Greek word that is properly translated as "through".
dia: through, on account of, because of
Original Word: διά
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: dia
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ah')
Definition: through, on account of, because of
Usage: (a) gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.
They sure weren't saved by water. They were, in fact, saved FROM THE WATER.
Just ask the rest of humanity on earth at that time how "saving" the water was.
If you think that literal flood waters saved Noah plus 7, there's really no reason to continue further discussion.
Well, that's an interesting misread of Scripture.
And you misread v.20 as well. The text does NOT SAY "saved by water". Really?
Please explain how the flood waters that KILLED all of humanity minus 8 then saved the 8. That should be interesting.
Here is the Greek word that is properly translated as "through".
dia: through, on account of, because of
Original Word: διά
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: dia
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ah')
Definition: through, on account of, because of
Usage: (a) gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.
They sure weren't saved by water. They were, in fact, saved FROM THE WATER.
Just ask the rest of humanity on earth at that time how "saving" the water was.
If you think that literal flood waters saved Noah plus 7, there's really no reason to continue further discussion.
i've never argued against that. But so what? That isn't Holy Spirit baptism. Water baptism symbolizes one's identification with Christ.
But you don't understand 1 Pet 3:21, so I guess there's nothing more to say.
In Acts, there are a number of verses that mention people believing and being "added to the church" without any mention of being water baptized.
And don't forget what the GREATEST evangelist wrote:
1 Cor 1-
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.
16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
So, IF IF IF water baptism is a requirement for one's salvation, then Paul was a total failure for this admission.
He actually made a point that he didn't baptize everyone, but only a very few.
Every evangelist desires to see as many people saved as possible. So actively NOT baptizing people shows that Paul himself didn't view water baptism as a requirement for salvation.
But you are free to your own opinion.
But you don't understand 1 Pet 3:21, so I guess there's nothing more to say.
In Acts, there are a number of verses that mention people believing and being "added to the church" without any mention of being water baptized.
And don't forget what the GREATEST evangelist wrote:
1 Cor 1-
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.
16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
So, IF IF IF water baptism is a requirement for one's salvation, then Paul was a total failure for this admission.
He actually made a point that he didn't baptize everyone, but only a very few.
Every evangelist desires to see as many people saved as possible. So actively NOT baptizing people shows that Paul himself didn't view water baptism as a requirement for salvation.
But you are free to your own opinion.
@GRACE_ambassador,
have you ever studied the arrabōn (the "earnest") in Ephesians 1:14?
Ephesians 1:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest [Greek arrabōn] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
... see also 2 Cor 1:22 and 2 For 5:5
love, love, love the earnest!!!
have you ever studied the arrabōn (the "earnest") in Ephesians 1:14?
Ephesians 1:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest [Greek arrabōn] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
... see also 2 Cor 1:22 and 2 For 5:5
love, love, love the earnest!!!
My opinion does not matter. What does is what is found in scripture.
Paul's comment makes it obvious that his focus was on preaching the message. However, what can be ascertained from other relevant scriptures is he had people with him that assisted him by performing the water baptisms associated with his teachings. This truth is seen in the biblical record concerning Crispus' water baptism that Paul mentions in the 1 Corinthian account your shared.
Take notice what is stated in Acts 18 below. Crispus and all of those of his household and MANY Corinthians believed Paul's message and were baptized. So of the entire group, the chief ruler of the synagogue (Crispus) was the only one that Paul actually baptized himself. Clearly someone else was with Paul and performed the water baptisms of the other people.
Acts 18:8-10
8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
Paul's comment makes it obvious that his focus was on preaching the message. However, what can be ascertained from other relevant scriptures is he had people with him that assisted him by performing the water baptisms associated with his teachings. This truth is seen in the biblical record concerning Crispus' water baptism that Paul mentions in the 1 Corinthian account your shared.
Take notice what is stated in Acts 18 below. Crispus and all of those of his household and MANY Corinthians believed Paul's message and were baptized. So of the entire group, the chief ruler of the synagogue (Crispus) was the only one that Paul actually baptized himself. Clearly someone else was with Paul and performed the water baptisms of the other people.
Acts 18:8-10
8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
Your post #106 may refresh your memory.
The question is what did the people believe that added them to the church. Did they obey any specific commands because they believed what they were told? Etc.
Many bible verses focus on one aspect of the plan of salvation (Acts 2); ie, belief in Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection, repentance, water baptism and Spirit baptism. This does not change the fact that all are essential for one's salvation.
Jesus makes this point in the following scripture. It parallels Jesus' great commission recorded in Matthew 28:19. Jesus states to preach the gospel to the world. We know the gospel message includes baptism because in verse 16 Jesus specifically mentions it. It is also included in Matthew 28:19.
Verse 16 connects belief (faith) and acting upon one's belief through being baptized. (obedience) Verse 17 speaks to the fact that believing the entire gospel message will also result in God giving the Holy Ghost. How do we know this? Those who receive the Holy Ghost speak in unknown tongues. (Acts 2:33)
15 “And he (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” Mark 16:15-18
The question is what did the people believe that added them to the church. Did they obey any specific commands because they believed what they were told? Etc.
Many bible verses focus on one aspect of the plan of salvation (Acts 2); ie, belief in Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection, repentance, water baptism and Spirit baptism. This does not change the fact that all are essential for one's salvation.
Jesus makes this point in the following scripture. It parallels Jesus' great commission recorded in Matthew 28:19. Jesus states to preach the gospel to the world. We know the gospel message includes baptism because in verse 16 Jesus specifically mentions it. It is also included in Matthew 28:19.
Verse 16 connects belief (faith) and acting upon one's belief through being baptized. (obedience) Verse 17 speaks to the fact that believing the entire gospel message will also result in God giving the Holy Ghost. How do we know this? Those who receive the Holy Ghost speak in unknown tongues. (Acts 2:33)
15 “And he (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” Mark 16:15-18
What's to remember that you think I forgot?
What they believed was that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believing in Him, they receive eternal life.
No, Acts 2 was specific to those directly involved in Jesus' crucifixion.
Uh, no He didn't. Here's v.16 from Matt 28: Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.
I'm glad you mentioned the Great Commission. v.16 shows to whom Jesus gave it. The 11. Not all the believers, which were "about 120" according to Acts 1:15. And in Acts 1 we again see that ONLY the 11 were present when Jesus gave the GC.
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"
It is the "making of disciples" that is salvation. The water baptism doesn't make a disciple. It's a SIGN, or SYMBOL of being identified with Christ.
Your verse numbers don't add up.
Are you aware that v.9-end of Mark 16 isn't found in the original text? Those verses didn't show up in manuscripts until much later.
That means the verses weren't part of what Mark wrote.
If v.16 was Spirit inspired, it would be obvious that He was referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which I've already explained fully.
Why haven't you responded to my comment about 1 Cor 1 where Paul made clear that he wasn't sent to baptize but to preach the gospel. As the world's best and most prolific evangelist of all time, why did he emphasize what and what not he was sent to do?
Any evangelist who believes that water baptism was necessary for salvation, would make absolute sure that every person who responded to the message got immersed. Yet Paul makes clear he wasn't sent for baptiziing.
Think about it. With an open mind.
You've simply been taught error.
What they believed was that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believing in Him, they receive eternal life.
No, Acts 2 was specific to those directly involved in Jesus' crucifixion.
Uh, no He didn't. Here's v.16 from Matt 28: Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.
I'm glad you mentioned the Great Commission. v.16 shows to whom Jesus gave it. The 11. Not all the believers, which were "about 120" according to Acts 1:15. And in Acts 1 we again see that ONLY the 11 were present when Jesus gave the GC.
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"
It is the "making of disciples" that is salvation. The water baptism doesn't make a disciple. It's a SIGN, or SYMBOL of being identified with Christ.
Your verse numbers don't add up.
Are you aware that v.9-end of Mark 16 isn't found in the original text? Those verses didn't show up in manuscripts until much later.
That means the verses weren't part of what Mark wrote.
If v.16 was Spirit inspired, it would be obvious that He was referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which I've already explained fully.
Why haven't you responded to my comment about 1 Cor 1 where Paul made clear that he wasn't sent to baptize but to preach the gospel. As the world's best and most prolific evangelist of all time, why did he emphasize what and what not he was sent to do?
Any evangelist who believes that water baptism was necessary for salvation, would make absolute sure that every person who responded to the message got immersed. Yet Paul makes clear he wasn't sent for baptiziing.
Think about it. With an open mind.
You've simply been taught error.
I don't agree with your understanding that salvation does not include the need to repent, and get water baptized in Jesus' name as well as believe in Jesus' sacrifice.
Acts 2:38 is the first time people were told to repent and get baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin and to expect to receive the Holy Ghost. Examples of this are found elsewhere in the word. Jesus actually prophesied this would occur first in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) That statement proves it will go on. He said it would BEGIN in Jerusalem.
Matthew 28:19 - Your understanding of this scripture is debatable.
There are differing opinions from scholars whether the book of Mark contained the scripture verses you mention. There is no definitive proof as far as I know. Nonetheless the same information contained there is evidenced in other places within the word.
The verse 16 I commented about was in the book of Mark not Matthew. Sorry.
I did respond to 1 Cor 1 in a separate post.
Acts 2:38 is the first time people were told to repent and get baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin and to expect to receive the Holy Ghost. Examples of this are found elsewhere in the word. Jesus actually prophesied this would occur first in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) That statement proves it will go on. He said it would BEGIN in Jerusalem.
Matthew 28:19 - Your understanding of this scripture is debatable.
There are differing opinions from scholars whether the book of Mark contained the scripture verses you mention. There is no definitive proof as far as I know. Nonetheless the same information contained there is evidenced in other places within the word.
The verse 16 I commented about was in the book of Mark not Matthew. Sorry.
I did respond to 1 Cor 1 in a separate post.
OK. So? You've failed to prove your claims.
I already told you about Acts 2:38.
I already told you about the transitional period of the church.
Not with those who have read it and understand it. Jesus gave the GC face to face with 11 men; His disciples. He also gave it face to face with Paul.
The "opinions" are meaningless. The OLDEST AND MOST RELIABLE MANUSCRIPTS do not have v.9-end. Period. That is not debatable.
Probably to someone else. I didn't see any addressed to me. What was your response?
I already told you about Acts 2:38.
I already told you about the transitional period of the church.
Not with those who have read it and understand it. Jesus gave the GC face to face with 11 men; His disciples. He also gave it face to face with Paul.
The "opinions" are meaningless. The OLDEST AND MOST RELIABLE MANUSCRIPTS do not have v.9-end. Period. That is not debatable.
Probably to someone else. I didn't see any addressed to me. What was your response?