A Closer Look at Ephesians 1:13

[Wansvic]

OK. So? You've failed to prove your claims.


I already told you about Acts 2:38.


I already told you about the transitional period of the church.


Not with those who have read it and understand it. Jesus gave the GC face to face with 11 men; His disciples. He also gave it face to face with Paul.


The "opinions" are meaningless. The OLDEST AND MOST RELIABLE MANUSCRIPTS do not have v.9-end. Period. That is not debatable.


Probably to someone else. I didn't see any addressed to me. What was your response?

You have made these statements and I have responded with scripture to each one individually in previous posts. Maybe if you actually took the time to read them you would understand what is being shared. Just because we do not agree does not warrant your less than cordial responses. No need to beat a dead horse. Have a nice day.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My opinion does not matter. What does is what is found in scripture.

Exactly. And there are NO verses that tell us that we are saved by water baptism. And 1 Pet 3:21 says in the clearest of language that water baptism is a symbol. It's NOT the reality of our identification with Christ. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the reality of our identification with Christ. Eph 1:13,14 shows that.

Paul's comment makes it obvious that his focus was on preaching the message. However, what can be ascertained from other relevant scriptures is he had people with him that assisted him by performing the water baptisms associated with his teachings. This truth is seen in the biblical record concerning Crispus' water baptism that Paul mentions in the 1 Corinthian account your shared.

None of this proves your claim about water baptism. Again, if water baptism was required for salvation, Paul would have made that very clear.

Instead, what did he write to the Corinthians?

1 Cor 15-
1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

That's the gospel that Paul preached. If baptism was also a requirement, he would have SAID SO.

Take notice what is stated in Acts 18 below. Crispus and all of those of his household and MANY Corinthians believed Paul's message and were baptized. So of the entire group, the chief ruler of the synagogue (Crispus) was the only one that Paul actually baptized himself. Clearly someone else was with Paul and performed the water baptisms of the other people.

I challenge you to read through Acts and write down every reference of people being saved or being added to the church where there is NO mention of baptism. You probably think there are no such verses, but there are a number of them.

Acts 18:8-10
8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

Just because baptism is mentioned where people are said to believe doesn't prove your point at all.

Remember Jesus' GC to His 11 disciples and Paul. Make disciples, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

People are saved at the "make disciples" part. And again, water baptism is the symbol of the believer's identification with Christ.

Paul wrote in 1 Cor 10:1-4 that the Israelites were "baptized in Moses and in the sea". Yet, NONE of them got wet in the sea. And how do you baptize someone "in Moses"?

It appears you just don't want to believe the actual facts here. You have an agenda or just want to hold onto your teachings.

 

[Wansvic]

Exactly. And there are NO verses that tell us that we are saved by water baptism. And 1 Pet 3:21 says in the clearest of language that water baptism is a symbol. It's NOT the reality of our identification with Christ. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the reality of our identification with Christ. Eph 1:13,14 shows that.


None of this proves your claim about water baptism. Again, if water baptism was required for salvation, Paul would have made that very clear.

Instead, what did he write to the Corinthians?

1 Cor 15-
1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

That's the gospel that Paul preached. If baptism was also a requirement, he would have SAID SO.

1. According to scripture one's sins are remitted through obedience to God's command for all to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul's own water baptism speaks to this truth. (Acts 22:16) And as evidenced by the initial message given on the day the church was birthed. (Acts 2:38)

2. Your comment concerning water baptism being a symbol in 1 Peter 3:21 is not accurate nor logical. A symbol of a symbol? That scripture states water baptism is the antitype, meaning the real thing.

3. Paul's letters are written to believers who have already been born again via the spiritual rebirth. His letters touch on aspects of the salvation message initially given by Peter at Pentecost. (Rom 6:3-5, 1 Cor 1:15-16, 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:27, Eph 4:4-5, Col 2:12, Titus 3:5-6, Heb 4:1-2)

Notice Paul's comment about the need for believers to mature rather than laying again the foundation of the doctrine of Christ in Hebrews 6. This comment makes it clear that there is a foundation that includes faith, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, resurrection and eternal judgment.

Heb 6:1-2
...not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


4. 1 Cor. 15 - Paul is addressing the misconception that there is no resurrection. What many fail to realize is that Paul states he declared the gospel to them in verses 1-2 by which they were saved. He goes on to address the first part of the gospel message being Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. (verses 3-4) If a person does not accept Jesus' sacrifice as truth there is no need in repenting and obeying the command to be water baptized in His name. (Mark 16:16) Paul makes mention of water baptism in verse 29. (even though being baptized for the dead is not scriptural) Paul asks the Corinthians why they are bothering to water baptize individuals if they do not believe the dead will be resurrected.

 

[FreeGrace2]

1. According to scripture one's sins are remitted through obedience to God's command for all to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul's own water baptism speaks to this truth. (Acts 22:16) And as evidenced by the initial message given on the day the church was birthed. (Acts 2:38)

This verse was very specific; to the Jews who were present and participated in the crucifixion by their chants, etc. It does NOT apply to anyone today. Only those who were THERE.

2. Your comment concerning water baptism being a symbol in 1 Peter 3:21 is not accurate nor logical. A symbol of a symbol?

I don't know where you get this "symbol of a symbol" thing. Or did you just make it up?

New International Version
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

English Standard Version
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Berean Study Bible
And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Berean Literal Bible
which also prefigures the baptism now saving you, not a putting away of thefilth of flesh, but the demand of a good conscience toward God, through theresurrection of Jesus Christ,

King James Bible
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

New King James Version
There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

So, where do you see "symbol of a symbol" in any of these common translations?

That scripture states water baptism is the antitype, meaning the real thing.

This is from the internet:
an•ti•type ăn′tĭ-tīp″
n. One that is foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type, such as a figure in the New Testament who has a counterpart in the Old Testament.
n. An opposite or contrasting type.
n. That which is prefigured or represented by a type, and therefore is correlative with it; particularly, in theology, that which in the gospel is foreshadowed by and answers to some person, character, action, institution, or event in the Old Testament.

I suggest you do some research before inserting foot in mouth.

So, yes, water baptism IS a symbol of the baptism that DOES SAVE you. That IS what 1 Peter 3:21 says.

Are you aware of what John the baptizer said about Jesus:

Mark 1;8 - I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Do you understand what he meant?

 

[Wansvic]

That's the gospel that Paul preached. If baptism was also a requirement, he would have SAID SO.


I challenge you to read through Acts and write down every reference of people being saved or being added to the church where there is NO mention of baptism. You probably think there are no such verses, but there are a number of them.


Just because baptism is mentioned where people are said to believe doesn't prove your point at all.

Remember Jesus' GC to His 11 disciples and Paul. Make disciples, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

People are saved at the "make disciples" part. And again, water baptism is the symbol of the believer's identification with Christ.

Paul wrote in 1 Cor 10:1-4 that the Israelites were "baptized in Moses and in the sea". Yet, NONE of them got wet in the sea. And how do you baptize someone "in Moses"?

It appears you just don't want to believe the actual facts here. You have an agenda or just want to hold onto your teachings.

1. Many scriptures touch on individual parts of the rebirth experience; i.e., belief, repentance, baptism, etc. However, all are necessary. This truth is evidenced by the words of Jesus himself, as well as his apostles. (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38-39, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6)

2. No doctrine of scripture can be established on one verse. The whole truth is only revealed when all verses relevant to a given subject are evaluated in light of one another.

3. Your comment, "people are saved at the "make disciples part" is a personal opinion. According to the pattern set by Jesus himself, all must obey the gospel message in it's entirety; belief in Jesus' sacrifice, repenting, submitting to water baptism in His name, and receiving the Holy Ghost. We know this because Jesus told the apostles in Matthew 28:20 to teach others to observe all the things he commanded of them. They were to disciple others. The apostles were not to begin their ministries prior to receiving the infilling of the Holy Ghost. This occurred on the Day of Pentecost. The spiritual rebirth is required in order for one to become a disciple.

Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJV

4. 1 Corinthians 10:2 - Foreshadows of the NT spiritual rebirth = Cloud symbolizes the Holy Ghost, and the Sea symbolizes water baptism. (Acts 2:38-39)

[And were all baptized unto Moses] Rather INTO Moses-into the covenant of which Moses was the mediator; and by this typical baptism they were brought under the obligation of acting according to the Mosaic precepts, as Christians receiving Christian baptism are said to be baptized INTO Christ, and are thereby brought under obligation to keep the precepts of the Gospel.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, All rights reserved.)

5. Lastly, Old Testament foreshadows give us a glimpse of truth without being exactly alike. They prefigure an event. Prefigure: 1 : to show, suggest, or announce by an antecedent type, image, or likeness.

Just as Jesus is not a literal lamb, a foreshadow of water baptism does not require one actually getting "wet."

 

[Wansvic]

This verse was very specific; to the Jews who were present and participated in the crucifixion by their chants, etc. It does NOT apply to anyone today. Only those who were THERE.


I don't know where you get this "symbol of a symbol" thing. Or did you just make it up?

New International Version
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

English Standard Version
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Berean Study Bible
And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Berean Literal Bible
which also prefigures the baptism now saving you, not a putting away of thefilth of flesh, but the demand of a good conscience toward God, through theresurrection of Jesus Christ,

King James Bible
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

New King James Version
There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

So, where do you see "symbol of a symbol" in any of these common translations?


This is from the internet:
an•ti•type ăn′tĭ-tīp″
n. One that is foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type, such as a figure in the New Testament who has a counterpart in the Old Testament.
n. An opposite or contrasting type.
n. That which is prefigured or represented by a type, and therefore is correlative with it; particularly, in theology, that which in the gospel is foreshadowed by and answers to some person, character, action, institution, or event in the Old Testament.

I suggest you do some research before inserting foot in mouth.

So, yes, water baptism IS a symbol of the baptism that DOES SAVE you. That IS what 1 Peter 3:21 says.

Are you aware of what John the baptizer said about Jesus:

Mark 1;8 - I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Do you understand what he meant?

Foot in mouth? You may want to ask yourself why you find it necessary to be rude. I am not on this site for any other reason than to share what I see in scripture in the hopes of it helping others. And, to study out what others share that may possibly help me in better understanding God's word. Being right for the sake of being right does not interest me at all. What does is a sincere desire to make sure what I believe is backed up by the word. I see discussions as valuable tools for further bible study.

1. The NT water baptism is the antitype (the real thing) as foreshadowed by the flood wherein 8 people were saved according to 1 Peter 3:21.

2. Mark 1:8 in no way implies that one replaced the other. In fact both are necessary.

3. The only modification to water baptism is that after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection it was to be done using His name. (Luke 24:47, Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

4. Paul's message to the disciples of John the Baptist in Acts 19:1-6 speaks to this truth as well. Take note that the Apostle Paul water baptized the 12 and afterward they were filled with the Holy Ghost:

"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

 

[Wansvic]

So, where do you see "symbol of a symbol" in any of these common translations?


This is from the internet:
an•ti•type ăn′tĭ-tīp″
n. One that is foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type, such as a figure in the New Testament who has a counterpart in the Old Testament.
n. An opposite or contrasting type.
n. That which is prefigured or represented by a type, and therefore is correlative with it; particularly, in theology, that which in the gospel is foreshadowed by and answers to some person, character, action, institution, or event in the Old Testament.

I suggest you do some research before inserting foot in mouth.

So, yes, water baptism IS a symbol of the baptism that DOES SAVE you. That IS what 1 Peter 3:21 says.

The following scripture compares the OT flood water to an antitype. The antitype, or real thing is the NT water baptism.

1 Peter 3:20-21
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
KJV

 

[Wansvic]

My comment: 1. According to scripture one's sins are remitted through obedience to God's command for all to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul's own water baptism speaks to this truth. (Acts 22:16) And as evidenced by the initial message given on the day the church was birthed. (Acts 2:38)

This verse was very specific; to the Jews who were present and participated in the crucifixion by their chants, etc. It does NOT apply to anyone today. Only those who were THERE.

Notice something Jesus stated specifically about a message that would be preached beginning in Jerusalem, it would be preached among all nations. And in fact it was and continues even unto today.

Jesus told the apostles "...that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, BEGINNING at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) This occurred in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. Peter said repent, and be baptized EVERYONE of you in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin..." (Acts 2:38-41)

Both Jews and Gentiles received the same gospel along with instructions requiring obedience by all. The Jews along with Gentile proselytes and strangers (Acts 2:10) were given the initial message on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38-41) as prophesied by Jesus. (Luke 24:47) The same obedience was required of others in (Acts 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 9:17-18, 22:16)

Every human being is to blame for what Jesus had to endure. All must repent without exception.


Acts 3:19
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 13:38-39
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 13:46
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 17:30-31
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 20:21
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 26:20
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

 

[FreeGrace2]

1. Many scriptures touch on individual parts of the rebirth experience; i.e., belief, repentance, baptism, etc. However, all are necessary. This truth is evidenced by the words of Jesus himself, as well as his apostles. (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38-39, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6)

2. No doctrine of scripture can be established on one verse.

I don't base doctrine on a single verse. And those who believe that water baptism is required for savlation only have 1 verse, which they fail to understand properly.

The whole truth is only revealed when all verses relevant to a given subject are evaluated in light of one another.

Good luck finding any verses that teach that water baptism is required for salvation.

3. Your comment, "people are saved at the "make disciples part" is a personal opinion. According to the pattern set by Jesus himself, all must obey the gospel message in it's entirety; belief in Jesus' sacrifice, repenting, submitting to water baptism in His name, and receiving the Holy Ghost.

Nope. That's not the gospel message. After believing in Christ as Savior, the rest of what you listed are commands of obedience for believers, not for unbelievers in order to get saved.

We know this because Jesus told the apostles in Matthew 28:20 to teach others to observe all the things he commanded of them. They were to disciple others.

Teaching to observe all things that Jesus commanded of the disciples FOLLOWS making disciples.

The apostles were not to begin their ministries prior to receiving the infilling of the Holy Ghost. This occurred on the Day of Pentecost. The spiritual rebirth is required in order for one to become a disciple.

First, there is no such thing as "infilling". where did you get that from? On the day of Pentecost, the Jewish believers received the indwelling of the Spirit. After the transition of the church age, ALL believers receive the indwelling Spirit when they believe. Gal 3:2,5 say so.

The filling of the Spirit is a command for all believers. It isn't automatic. It must be obeyed. Do you know how to be filled with the Spirit?

Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Do you know who Jesus gave this command to?

4. 1 Corinthians 10:2 - Foreshadows of the NT spiritual rebirth = Cloud symbolizes the Holy Ghost, and the Sea symbolizes water baptism. (Acts 2:38-39)

There is NO symbolism here. Paul was quite literal. The cloud was a reference to the Shekinah Glory, or the Pre-incarnate Christ. The sea was literally the Red Sea, where the Israelites went through on dry ground. Can you explain why Paul said they were "baptized in the cloud and in the sea"? And it's not symbolic or mystical. It's very literal.

Just as Jesus is not a literal lamb, a foreshadow of water baptism does not require one actually getting "wet."

Are you aware that there are wet and dry baptisms? Which are literal and which are symbolic?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Foot in mouth? You may want to ask yourself why you find it necessary to be rude.

Rude? Calling out an error? That's not rude. It's direct.

I am not on this site for any other reason than to share what I see in scripture in the hopes of it helping others. And, to study out what others share that may possibly help me in better understanding God's word. Being right for the sake of being right does not interest me at all. What does is a sincere desire to make sure what I believe is backed up by the word. I see discussions as valuable tools for further bible study.

And that's why I'm here. What I believe is backed up by the Word. I'm always amazed at what people thinks is biblical and the verses they quote don't say what they claim.

[/QUOTE]1. The NT water baptism is the antitype (the real thing) as foreshadowed by the flood wherein 8 people were saved according to 1 Peter 3:21. [/QUOTE]
The word "antitype" doesn't mean the "real thing" but rather, a symbol of something.

2. Mark 1:8 in no way implies that one replaced the other. In fact both are necessary.

Fact? Please show Scripture that supports your "fact".

3. The only modification to water baptism is that after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection it was to be done using His name. (Luke 24:47, Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

4. Paul's message to the disciples of John the Baptist in Acts 19:1-6 speaks to this truth as well. Take note that the Apostle Paul water baptized the 12 and afterward they were filled with the Holy Ghost:

Gentiles were a mixed bag. Cornelius and family in Acts 10 received the Holy Spirit immediately, BEFORE they were water baptized.

But the people of Samaria, including Simon the sorcerer, didn't receive the Spirit until hands were laid on them by apostles.

However, by the time Paul wrote Galatians, he made it clear that the believers in Galatia received the Spirit because they believed.

Gal 3:2,5.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My comment: 1. According to scripture one's sins are remitted through obedience to God's command for all to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul's own water baptism speaks to this truth. (Acts 22:16) And as evidenced by the initial message given on the day the church was birthed. (Acts 2:38)


Notice something Jesus stated specifically about a message that would be preached beginning in Jerusalem, it would be preached among all nations. And in fact it was and continues even unto today.

Jesus told the apostles "...that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, BEGINNING at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) This occurred in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. Peter said repent, and be baptized EVERYONE of you in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin..." (Acts 2:38-41)

Both Jews and Gentiles received the same gospel along with instructions requiring obedience by all. The Jews along with Gentile proselytes and strangers (Acts 2:10) were given the initial message on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38-41) as prophesied by Jesus. (Luke 24:47) The same obedience was required of others in (Acts 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 9:17-18, 22:16)

Every human being is to blame for what Jesus had to endure. All must repent without exception.


Acts 3:19
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 13:38-39
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 13:46
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 17:30-31
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 20:21
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 26:20
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

This is what Paul said about water baptism:

1 Cor 1-
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.
16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Paul, the greatest evangelist of all time, based on his ministry documented throughout Acts, made the point that he baptized very few people. The green words show what he was sent to do; preach the gospel, NOT baptize.

So, IF water baptism were necessary for salvation, Paul would have made sure everyone who responded to his message would be baptized. But he didn't baptize.

And Gal 3:2,5 show that receiving the Holy Spirit is through believing, not water baptism.

 

[Wansvic]

This is what Paul said about water baptism:

1 Cor 1-
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.
16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Paul, the greatest evangelist of all time, based on his ministry documented throughout Acts, made the point that he baptized very few people. The green words show what he was sent to do; preach the gospel, NOT baptize.

So, IF water baptism were necessary for salvation, Paul would have made sure everyone who responded to his message would be baptized. But he didn't baptize.

And Gal 3:2,5 show that receiving the Holy Spirit is through believing, not water baptism.

Context is essential in order to gain understanding.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Context is essential in order to gain understanding.

How is 1 Cor 1 not context for water baptism?

Paul was clear. He was sent to preach, not baptize. Those who insist water baptism is necessary for salvation are hard pressed to explain why Paul said this.

If it were necessary, wouldn't Paul have emphasized it in his preaching? But we never see any mention of the need for water baptism to be saved.

 

[Wansvic]

Rude? Calling out an error? That's not rude. It's direct.


And that's why I'm here. What I believe is backed up by the Word. I'm always amazed at what people thinks is biblical and the verses they quote don't say what they claim.

1. The NT water baptism is the antitype (the real thing) as foreshadowed by the flood wherein 8 people were saved according to 1 Peter 3:21.

[/QUOTE]
The word "antitype" doesn't mean the "real thing" but rather, a symbol of something.


Fact? Please show Scripture that supports your "fact".


Gentiles were a mixed bag. Cornelius and family in Acts 10 received the Holy Spirit immediately, BEFORE they were water baptized.

But the people of Samaria, including Simon the sorcerer, didn't receive the Spirit until hands were laid on them by apostles.

However, by the time Paul wrote Galatians, he made it clear that the believers in Galatia received the Spirit because they believed.

Gal 3:2,5.[/QUOTE]

1. The word states water baptism is to be done for the remission of sin as referenced previously.

2. You may want to look up the definition of antitype.

3. Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 9:17-18, 22:16 provide evidence that water baptism and being infilled/indwelt with the Holy Ghost are both necessary. One did not replace the other as I stated.

4. The biblical record of those receiving the Holy Ghost and being obedient to the command to be water baptized speaks to the necessity regardless of the sequence in which they occur.

And for the record, both Jews and Gentiles received the Holy Ghost before being water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Many fail to realize that the use of Jesus' name in water baptism began in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. (Luke 24:47) And although not specifically mentioned in the details we know from other scripture that John's water baptism was not sufficient. Paul makes this clear in his exchange with the Ephesus disciples in Acts 19:1-6. They had to be rebaptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Paul also received the Holy Ghost and afterward submitted to water baptism in order that his sins be washed away. (Acts 9:17-18, 22:16)

5. Galatians 3:2, 5 - We do receive the Holy Ghost by the hearing of faith separate from the OT law. The question to be asked is what was heard, believed and prompted obedience as mandated in the message given in the NT?

 

[Wansvic]

How is 1 Cor 1 not context for water baptism?

Paul was clear. He was sent to preach, not baptize. Those who insist water baptism is necessary for salvation are hard pressed to explain why Paul said this.

If it were necessary, wouldn't Paul have emphasized it in his preaching? But we never see any mention of the need for water baptism to be saved.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...to-baptize-what-exactly-did-paul-mean.200367/

 

[Wansvic]

Rude? Calling out an error? That's not rude. It's direct.


And that's why I'm here. What I believe is backed up by the Word. I'm always amazed at what people thinks is biblical and the verses they quote don't say what they claim.

The word "antitype" doesn't mean the "real thing" but rather, a symbol of something.


Fact? Please show Scripture that supports your "fact".


Gentiles were a mixed bag. Cornelius and family in Acts 10 received the Holy Spirit immediately, BEFORE they were water baptized.

But the people of Samaria, including Simon the sorcerer, didn't receive the Spirit until hands were laid on them by apostles.

However, by the time Paul wrote Galatians, he made it clear that the believers in Galatia received the Spirit because they believed.

Gal 3:2,5.

1. The word states water baptism is to be done for the remission of sin as referenced previously.

2. You may want to look up the definition of antitype.

3. Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 9:17-18, 22:16 provide evidence that water baptism and being infilled/indwelt with the Holy Ghost are both necessary. One did not replace the other as I stated.

4. The biblical record of those receiving the Holy Ghost and being obedient to the command to be water baptized speaks to the necessity regardless of the sequence in which they occur.

And for the record, both Jews and Gentiles received the Holy Ghost before being water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Many fail to realize that the use of Jesus' name in water baptism began in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. (Luke 24:47) And although not specifically mentioned in the details we know from other scripture that John's water baptism was not sufficient. Paul makes this clear in his exchange with the Ephesus disciples in Acts 19:1-6. They had to be rebaptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Paul also received the Holy Ghost and afterward submitted to water baptism in order that his sins be washed away. (Acts 9:17-18, 22:16)

5. Galatians 3:2, 5 - We do receive the Holy Ghost by the hearing of faith separate from the OT law. The question to be asked is what was heard, believed and prompted obedience as mandated in the message given in the NT?

 

[FreeGrace2]

1. The word states water baptism is to be done for the remission of sin as referenced previously.

Those who are not teachable will stubbornly hold to their opinions even when the truth is presented. Please don't be like one of them.

Acgts 2:38 was specific to the Jews in THAT crowd who had just previously participated in Christ's crucifixion. What Peter told them was specific to THEM, not to US.

2. You may want to look up the definition of antitype.

I did. Here's what I found, and already shared. Do you read my posts, or just fire off whatever comes to mind?

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/antitype
Also found in: Thesaurus, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
an·ti·type
(ăn′tĭ-tīp′)
n.
1. One that is foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type, such as a figure in the NewTestament who has a counterpart in the Old Testament.
2. An opposite or contrasting type.

New International Version
and this water (literal) symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
And that water (literal) is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

English Standard Version
Baptism, which corresponds to this (literal), now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Berean Study Bible
And this water (literal) symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Here are 4 translations of 1 Pet 3:21. The words "this water" refer back to v.20 and the Noaic flood, which was LITERAL WATER.

Peter is saying that literal water symbolizes the baptism (identification) that saves you. Literal water does NOT save you.

3. Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 9:17-18, 22:16 provide evidence that water baptism and being infilled/indwelt with the Holy Ghost are both necessary. One did not replace the other as I stated.

No they don't.

4. The biblical record of those receiving the Holy Ghost and being obedient to the command to be water baptized speaks to the necessity regardless of the sequence in which they occur.

Nonsense.

 

[Wansvic]

Those who are not teachable will stubbornly hold to their opinions even when the truth is presented. Please don't be like one of them.

Acgts 2:38 was specific to the Jews in THAT crowd who had just previously participated in Christ's crucifixion. What Peter told them was specific to THEM, not to US.


I did. Here's what I found, and already shared. Do you read my posts, or just fire off whatever comes to mind?

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/antitype
Also found in: Thesaurus, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
an·ti·type
(ăn′tĭ-tīp′)
n.
1. One that is foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type, such as a figure in the NewTestament who has a counterpart in the Old Testament.
2. An opposite or contrasting type.

New International Version
and this water (literal) symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
And that water (literal) is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

English Standard Version
Baptism, which corresponds to this (literal), now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Berean Study Bible
And this water (literal) symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Here are 4 translations of 1 Pet 3:21. The words "this water" refer back to v.20 and the Noaic flood, which was LITERAL WATER.

Peter is saying that literal water symbolizes the baptism (identification) that saves you. Literal water does NOT save you.


No they don't.


Nonsense.

I do read your posts in there entirety.

Again, your understanding of the antitype definition you posted is flawed. The antitype is the real thing foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type.

1. One that is foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type, such as a figure in the NewTestament who has a counterpart in the Old Testament.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I do read your posts in there entirety.

Again, your understanding of the antitype definition you posted is flawed. The antitype is the real thing foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type.

1. One that is foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type, such as a figure in the NewTestament who has a counterpart in the Old Testament.

You still don't understand 1 Peter 3:21.

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The red words refers to literal water, from v.20 and mention of the flood, which was literal water.

The blue words refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is what saves you.

The green words prove that it's NOT literal water that saves you. The green words refer to literal water, which IS used for the removal of dirt from the body.

Since you disagree, can you take each of these points and prove how and why I'm wrong?

 

[JerryInBoston]

I do read your posts in there entirety.

Again, your understanding of the antitype definition you posted is flawed. The antitype is the real thing foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type.

1. One that is foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type, such as a figure in the NewTestament who has a counterpart in the Old Testament.

@FreeGrace2 uses the Weymouth paraphrase as his Bible, in which Weymouth takes great liberty with adding his own text that is not found in the Greek. Too much liberty, to be sure.