A pre-tribulation coming?

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G

gracethroughfaith

Guest
#61
If the great tribulation is for the unrighteous to go through and not the saints (righteous, Christians), then why is it Jesus only taught his disciples of it in PRIVATE. If the Church (Jesus' saints, Christians) is taken up before hand why would they need to know what is going to happen then? The tribulation was expressed to the saints that they may understand what they will go through and what will be the sign of Christ's return at the end of the tribulation.

Matthew 24:3-31 (KJV)
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

How many here have been taught from the pulpit that Matthew 24:31 is proof that the church had already be taken up before the great tribulation?
I know I have! Guess what it is a lie! You may ask how so? This is how so look at the same passages in Matthew 24:3-31, and Mark 13:3-27, this is the exact same information but now God give us just a little more information at the end of the passage in Mark 13:27.

I bet your preacher never showed you this passage in Mark 13:27 when teaching you this lie he was taught in the seminary.

Take a look!

Mark 13:3-27 (KJV)
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Where does it tell us the elect (saints, Christians, the church) are gathered from? From heaven alone? NO! But from the uttermost part of the earth the the uttermost part of heaven; Mark 12:27. This is every Christian that died before Christ's return and those still on the earth when he returns. We are all gathered together with Jesus at his second coming, meeting him in the clouds of heaven.

We can not allow ourselves to blindly except what the preacher in the pulpit is teaching us being led into the ditch with him. We must prove all things.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (KJV)
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Have you gone into scripture yourself to prove all things your preacher is telling you?

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Do you study God's word proving your faith, or are you ashamed before God? To rightly divide the word of truth we must divide scripture out by subject so we can see the full picture on any give subject.
James 2:18 (KJV)
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Acts 17:11 (KJV)
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Are you searching the scriptures daily to know whether the things the preacher is teaching you are so?

1 John 4:1 (KJV)
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Is your trust in your preachers teachings rather than what God will teach you from his word. Are you trying the spirit of your preacher?
John 14:26 (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.



1 John 2:24-29 (KJV)
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.







Philippians 4:7 (KJV)
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
 
G

GRA

Guest
#62
We see so many passages were God saved his righteous followers while in tribulatoin (troublous times),while in the fire; not from the fire.
Yeah ---- He likes to do things that way... It shows everyone Who is really in charge! :D

"Praise the Lord!"

.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
#63
Ok, last post :)

His appearing at the cloud base would qualify as a 'coming'
The rapture is For His saints. The second coming is with His saints :)

Only believers will see Him when we are caught up to the clouds. This is the mystery mentioned by Paul. This is an event not visible to the rest of the world, but only to believers. (1 Thess. 4:16-17). It will happen in the twinkling of an eye, so a sudden event (Matthew 24:30, 1 Cor 15:51-52). (Remember also the ascension of Jesus into Heaven, visible to His disciples).

His second coming will be when He returns to earth. All the world will see Him when He returns. (Rev 1:7: "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen")

We return with Him at His second coming. Why would He catch us up to the clouds to then have us turn around and immediately come back down with Him at His return? Besides, the wedding feast comes after the wedding, so that would mean we miss the feast. Look at the ancient Jewish weddings.

The catching up is basically the end of the church age. We're still in the church age now, witnessing to the unbelievers. Soon our work will come to an end and we will be removed, since we will no longer be needed.

And as for christians not being deceived, has not it been clear down through the ages that people worship at the alter of various gods in the name of Jesus? (Didn't you post quite often about a certain 'church' where millions submit?)
Christian is the most overused title. Using the title does not mean a person is saved. Not all who say "Lord, Lord" shall enter the Kingdom.

Those who are saved, who worship God in Spirit and in truth have had our eyes opened to the evil deceptions in the world. The millions that submit to another authority are those that remain in darkness, they are still in bondage and truly believe they are saved.


So, whether it's blatant or not, how are people who follow the advice of a greater(pastor or clergy) going to be able to decide for themselves?
The blind lead the blind... the lost lead the lost. Religion deceives. There will be many that take the mark but no one can make excuses on judgment day and blame the leaders of their religion for deceiving them. There are two roads - the narrow and the broad.


I say the mark of the beast system is nothing more than a tracking device. Because satan is subtle. And he is the best at appearing as an angel of light. - It'll be good for you(they will say) it will help protect you and your kids
If it were a chip then all young children would be going to hell because their parents would make the choice for them to have it. I used to think it was a chip but not sure anymore. I believe the mark to actually be the main tool used by the beast, showing allegiance to the system (email me if you're interested as I believe God spoke to me about the mark recently after I was pondering over it).

Since I know there will be a rapture, all children under the age of the Bar-Mitzvah will be caught up. There will be lots of people, including children, missing. The world will be deceived, basically told a lie about what really happened to all the people that disappeared - a false alien invasion or terrorist attack perhaps? With the world plagued by conspiracy theories who knows what people will end up believing??

Link --> The Rapture
 
G

GRA

Guest
#64
The rapture is For His saints. The second coming is with His saints
Yes - both are true. But, not quite the way you think... ;)

His second coming will be when He returns to earth. All the world will see Him when He returns. (Rev 1:7: "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen")
All true. Also, the rapture will occur at that time. :D

Those who are saved, who worship God in Spirit and in truth have had our eyes opened to the evil deceptions in the world.
Not quite... There are many still deceived today by the erroneous pre-trib rapture doctrine... ( :confused: )

The blind lead the blind...
YES - and this is why the pre-trib rapture doctrine is such a problem today... :(

He will come back with the pre-rapture souls of the saints.

Then, the rapture will occur. All of the saints will receive their 'translated' bodies. :)

The idea that this will occur "in secret" is not true and has no foundation in the Bible.

I know you don't want to believe this. And, you never will - unless you are first willing to:

~ Forget ("push aside temporarily") everything you have learned... (ALL pre-conceived notions)
~ Forget the pastor/preacher/teacher...
~ Just YOU, the Holy Bible, and the Holy Spirit.
~ Re-examine the scriptures... (with much prayer for the proper understanding)

I have been there. I have done that.

I myself was 'raised' under the "pre-trib rapture" doctrine.

I was taught by well-meaning people who thought they "had it right"...

I stopped believing it when I "studied it out for myself with only 'ME and GOD' and nobody else"...

I am so glad that I made this effort. It opened up "a most wonderful expansion" of understanding of the Bible...

I am so certain of this particular thing, that I have no problem saying:

Nobody likes to hear that they have it wrong or that they have been deceived.

However, if and when a person reaches the point where they care [far] more about knowing the actual truth than anything else ----- THEN -- and ONLY then -- will they be able to "uncover" more truth than they ever thought was possible...

With all of the Christian Love I can muster - I admonish you and encourage you to take on the challenge of achieving the proper result of doing that [in blue above]...

:)

.
 
G

gracethroughfaith

Guest
#65
GRA:
Well said. You are not alone brother, I also have come out form among them who teach falls doctrines. Speaking lies in hypocrisy.
1 Timothy 4:1-2 (KJV)
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;


Katy-follower:
We must look at all the passages pertaining to this subject not just one or two. Can we put a puzzle together with peaces missing and see the whole picture? NO WAY!
Lets look at the passages in this subject.

It is after the tribulation that the saints (the church) is taken up to meet the LORD in the clouds. At this time every eyes shall see him. We the saints are not taken up in secret. How foolish would that be. How would the unblievers truely see the LORD's great Glory and power.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27 (KJV)
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:25-27 (KJV)
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 1:7 (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

All we have to do is trust in the LORD to give us understanding and to make all things known to us.
Search the scripture daily.

Many may say this has nothing to do with our salvation so why even bother trying to understand it!
This is very important, if it were not God would not have shared it with us.
Besides if you wil believe the lie being taught about the second coming of your LORD and when that is, you will believe other lies that go against what God has taught from his HOLY WORD.
 
B

BananaPie

Guest
#66
John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear the sound of His voice,


29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


40 And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise Him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw Him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

54 Whoso eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The fact remains that either
a) Jesus is explaining that there is ONE resurrection on this side of the Millennial Kingdom in which ALL those in the graves will be processed and such processing will occur "at the last day,"

or

b) the pre-Trib preacher is correcting Jesus' understanding of the future.

As for me and my house, we believe Jesus 100% in a twinkling of an eye!! :D

 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#67
Some people say that the church will be physically present on earth during the Great Tribulation (GT) but protected by some (miraculous?) means. But according to Rev 13:15-17 those who refuse to worship the beast will be killed and those without the mark of the beast will not be able to buy and sell. If the church will be face the GT and refuse the mark of the beast they wouldn't be able to buy food, so they wouldn't be in any form of protection. There will not be any special protection during the GT. Hence the only logical explanation of 1 Thess 5:9 and Rev 3:10 is removal of believers from the earth as a means of escape. The GT will be a terrible event and the faith upheld by tribulation saints will cost many of them their lives. It is definitely not a situation one would want to experience.

Luke 21:34-36
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The days preceding the rapture of the church will be like the days before the flood when people were living their normal lives of eating, drinking, marrying, and making merry, then destruction came upon them after Noah and his family were saved. How in the world will people be drinking, making merry and marrying during the GT-a catastrophic event- if the rapture will happen at the end?

2 Thess 2:7- For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. Who is the "He" to be taken out? The Holy Spirit. He dwells in believers so the church also will be removed from the earth before the GT begins.

Another observation is that Matt 24:36 says "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" and vs 42 says "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come". No one knows when the rapture will happen, not even the Son of Man, whereas the second coming of Christ is predictable as it will happen at the end of the 7-year tribulation.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
#68
And as for christians not being deceived, has not it been clear down through the ages that people worship at the alter of various gods in the name of Jesus? (Didn't you post quite often about a certain 'church' where millions submit?)
Those who are saved, who worship God in Spirit and in truth have had our eyes opened to the evil deceptions in the world. The millions that submit to another authority are those that remain in darkness, they are still in bondage and truly believe they are saved
Not quite... There are many still deceived today by the erroneous pre-trib rapture doctrine... ( :confused: )



Gra - please don't take what I said out of context. My deception post here was talking of salvation, not eschatology differences. I was pointing out to Rick that the millions of 'Christians' submitting to another authority are those who aren't really Christian, the ones that live in darkness, not saved yet, deceived by Satan.

As for the belief that Christ will come back to get us, to protect His sheep, there is no deception in believing this promise. If anything it's deception to believe He has ditched us. There will be many not ready for His return, those who wait for Antichrist and death to the church first.

I'm sorry that so many don't trust His promises.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
#69
So, whether it's blatant or not, how are people who follow the advice of a greater(pastor or clergy) going to be able to decide for themselves?
The blind lead the blind... the lost lead the lost. Religion deceives. There will be many that take the mark but no one can make excuses on judgment day and blame the leaders of their religion for deceiving them. There are two roads - the narrow and the broad

YES - and this is why the pre-trib rapture doctrine is such a problem today... :(


Gra - the blind leading the blind are the unsaved leading the unsaved, in the context I was speaking. Wow, for some reason you are trying to say I am lost/not saved/blind and following a belief of someone who is also lost... just because I believe Christ is returning for His own rather than leaving us to be slaughtered sheep.

We're supposed to be family and yet you say I'm in the devil's family.. ??
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
#70
The idea that this will occur "in secret" is not true and has no foundation in the Bible.
You've missed a lot of scriptures and no matter what I throw your way you will not believe any of it but your own opinion.

Jesus often used Jewish customs to communicate future events, particularly the ancient Jewish weddings.

"When the bridegroom's father deemed the wedding chamber ready, the father would tell the bridegroom that all was ready and to get His bride. The bridegroom would abduct his bride secretly, like a thief at night and take her to the wedding chamber. As the bridegroom approached the bride's home, he would shout and blow the shofar (ram's horn trumpet) so that she had some warning to gather her belongings to take into the wedding chamber. The bridegroom and his friends would come into the bride's house and get the bride and her bridesmaids"

Link --> End Times | Rapture & Jewish Wedding

Also look at the 7 feasts, as 4 have been fulfilled, the next is Feast of trumpets.


I know you don't want to believe this. And, you never will - unless you are first willing to:

~ Forget ("push aside temporarily") everything you have learned... (ALL pre-conceived notions)
~ Forget the pastor/preacher/teacher...
~ Just YOU, the Holy Bible, and the Holy Spirit.
~ Re-examine the scriptures... (with much prayer for the proper understanding)

I have been there. I have done that.

I myself was 'raised' under the "pre-trib rapture" doctrine
No one has raised me with the pre-tribulation doctrine (in fact, many churches don't even teach the end times as they prefer to focus on positive teachings). I use discernment when even listening to teachers to be sure all matches up with scripture and I'm 1000% sure that Christ returns for His sheep, which will be the end of the church age. You're completely disregarding what the tribulation is actually for... you're trying to put the church in it, when we are no longer needed as God clearly focuses on the unbelievers & Israel during this time... the last call to repentance for them.

We know that Satan only pours out his wrath in the last 3.5 years, as it's 7 year trib, so that would place the rapture sometime before the 7 years or at the half way point, as the first half will be peaceful not wrath. Since no one knows the day or hour, it could not happen at the end of the 7 years as it would be obvious.

Since you've so much disbelief, maybe He will keep you here since He says to pray that you be worthy to escape such things. If a person has disbelief in God's promises and keeps wanting to be here then maybe you just will be here.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
#71
Some people say that the church will be physically present on earth during the Great Tribulation (GT) but protected by some (miraculous?) means. But according to Rev 13:15-17 those who refuse to worship the beast will be killed and those without the mark of the beast will not be able to buy and sell. If the church will be face the GT and refuse the mark of the beast they wouldn't be able to buy food, so they wouldn't be in any form of protection. There will not be any special protection during the GT. Hence the only logical explanation of 1 Thess 5:9 and Rev 3:10 is removal of believers from the earth as a means of escape. The GT will be a terrible event and the faith upheld by tribulation saints will cost many of them their lives. It is definitely not a situation one would want to experience.

Luke 21:34-36
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The days preceding the rapture of the church will be like the days before the flood when people were living their normal lives of eating, drinking, marrying, and making merry, then destruction came upon them after Noah and his family were saved. How in the world will people be drinking, making merry and marrying during the GT-a catastrophic event- if the rapture will happen at the end?

2 Thess 2:7- For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. Who is the "He" to be taken out? The Holy Spirit. He dwells in believers so the church also will be removed from the earth before the GT begins.

Another observation is that Matt 24:36 says "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" and vs 42 says "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come". No one knows when the rapture will happen, not even the Son of Man, whereas the second coming of Christ is predictable as it will happen at the end of the 7-year tribulation.
Amen to all you have said here. I remembered that scripture about praying that we be worthy to escape such things. This is a warning of awful days to come, days that God is not wishing upon us. We are not sheep being led to slaughter.

You made a great point about the days of Noah (in red), that all the unbelievers were happy just before they were swept away... that is really telling, as it will be just like those days.

Thanks for your sharing your wisdom :)
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
#72
Gra - sorry for snapping,but looked like you were calling me blind. Did not like that much. :(
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#73
i innocently accepted premil/pretrib
i dont consider i was blind just ignorant and trusting
But after awhile i had to either leave it behind
or leave my bible behind.
 
G

GRA

Guest
#74
Wow, for some reason you are trying to say I am lost/not saved/blind and following a belief of someone who is also lost...
We're supposed to be family and yet you say I'm in the devil's family.. ??
"No honey, I did not mean that at all..."

I will try to explain later tonight - right now, I have to concentrate on generating an income...

:)

.

 
W

webchatter

Guest
#75
I don't think it's important that everyone agree on whether or not the rapture will occur. When a rapture occurs, those who didn't believe beforehand, will certainly know a rapture just occured. I think it's important NOT to teach our children, or other new Christians, that there will be a pretrib rapture. There is less scriptural evidence to suppport pre trib, than there is to support mid or post trib. "no one knows the hour or the day, not even the angels". So what if you teach pre trib & it turns out the midtribbers are correct? Will those young or new Christians lose faith in their beliefs? No one will know the day the tribulation begins. We know it lasts 7 yrs. When it's over, then we can count back to know what day it began. Yes somewhere along the way we will figure it out that we are in the tribulation. Maybe we will be here to identify the two witnesses & bring it to non Christians attention. We are promised not to endure God's wrath, which is the great tribulation 3 1/2 yrs. So we will be gone before God's wrath, but no promise is made for us escaping satan's wrath.
 
P

peterT

Guest
#76
Some people say that the church will be physically present on earth during the Great Tribulation (GT) but protected by some (miraculous?) means. But according to Rev 13:15-17 those who refuse to worship the beast will be killed and those without the mark of the beast will not be able to buy and sell. If the church will be face the GT and refuse the mark of the beast they wouldn't be able to buy food, so they wouldn't be in any form of protection. There will not be any special protection during the GT. Hence the only logical explanation of 1 Thess 5:9 and Rev 3:10 is removal of believers from the earth as a means of escape. The GT will be a terrible event and the faith upheld by tribulation saints will cost many of them their lives. It is definitely not a situation one would want to experience.

Luke 21:34-36
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
The days preceding the rapture of the church will be like the days before the flood when people were living their normal lives of eating, drinking, marrying, and making merry, then destruction came upon them after Noah and his family were saved. How in the world will people be drinking, making merry and marrying during the GT-a catastrophic event- if the rapture will happen at the end?

2 Thess 2:7- For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. Who is the "He" to be taken out? The Holy Spirit. He dwells in believers so the church also will be removed from the earth before the GT begins.

Another observation is that Matt 24:36 says "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" and vs 42 says "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come". No one knows when the rapture will happen, not even the Son of Man, whereas the second coming of Christ is predictable as it will happen at the end of the 7-year tribulation.
That’s not right.

The woman that flees into the wilderness is protected and fed by God for 3 ½ years. So how is there no protection?

And the ones that don’t flee, the ones that stay and preach the gospel, the antichrist has to catch them first before he can kill them.

Not all are killed because it says them "which are alive and remain".

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It’s a matter of faith, do you believe Gods word, do you think that God can keep you safe during the great tribulation, according to the word YES.

God kept them in the book of Daniel safe from the lion’s and from the burning flame, and came out without a smell of smoke or a scratch on them.

But yes lots will die for their faith, as it says.

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

It’s a matter of faith and believing in God’s word, and will He find faith on the earth when he comes.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
 
G

GRA

Guest
#77
"Are you sure about that...?" :D

Only believers will see Him when we are caught up to the clouds. This is the mystery mentioned by Paul. This is an event not visible to the rest of the world, but only to believers. (1 Thess. 4:16-17). It will happen in the twinkling of an eye, so a sudden event (Matthew 24:30, 1 Cor 15:51-52). (Remember also the ascension of Jesus into Heaven, visible to His disciples).
"Do not put words in the mouth of scripture."

Nowhere in scripture does it say that this happens in secret. This is something that is only "imagined" or "invented" by man...

Nowhere in scripture does it say that the 'event' of the rapture occurs "in the twinkling of an eye" --- the translation of the bodies of believers from 'corruptible' to 'incorruptible' occurs "in the twinkling of an eye" --- NOT the 'event' of the rapture.

THIS is the mystery Paul mentioned in 1 Cor 15:51-52 -- the translation of the bodies of believers from 'corruptible' to 'incorruptible' - strictly having to do with "the change" itself - not including the idea of being "caught up" (which, incidentally, is not present in the context of THAT place in scripture) - nor does it indicate the "visibility" of it. It only says "we shall be changed - in the twinkling of an eye - at the last trump"...

And, the point I am trying to make here is - "don't assume things scripture does not actually say"...

Look at Matthew 24:30 (which you quoted a reference of, above, in support of your view):

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Notice the words 'coming in the clouds of heaven' used together with the words 'with power and great glory'.

Also, notice the words 'and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn'.

Now, look at the next thing you said in your post (which you claim is a different 'event'):

His second coming will be when He returns to earth. All the world will see Him when He returns. (Rev 1:7: "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen")
Revelation 1:7

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The prevailing "pre-trib" view has been, that the 'rapture' [coming-of-Christ] would occur "in secret" with Jesus coming in/with clouds -- and, the 'Second' [coming-of-Christ] would occur very visibly with Jesus coming "with power and great glory" and that "all the tribes of the earth will mourn" when they see Him...

What does Matthew 24:30 say again?

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

(And, we know that Matthew 24:31 is talking about the rapture...)

How is that again?

"... coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." - right before (and along with) the rapture...

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Food for thought?

:)

.
 
Jul 12, 2012
933
2
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#78
Problem with the rapture being pre-trib, is that it steals the show from anything that is alleged to follow it.

Having heard christians talk about rapture all your life, and then seeing them disappear in one minute, anyone left would be changed. Any single person left would repent. Need any more tribulation than being left behind by God? A miraculous sign of world wide rapture itself? Come out of hollywood and look at how people would really react.

The rapture would steal the show from all the other things being prophesied to follow it.
It is the greatest point of the tribulation, it can't possibly be the forgotten coin flip before the kickoff.
And if God promises your team is gonna win, do you want to get a medical excuse, or sit scared on the bench, or ask to get on the field for at least one play in a most epic win?

The pharisees waited on an mighty sword wielding battle messiah too, and they had the same type of "wrath" language to base it on as we do. They got a spiritual version of that picture instead, and so will we, because we have become the pharisees, arguing about laws and punishments, and not loving others at cost of self. Making graven images of "asteroids" and "alien-demons" and "microchips" out of already established symbolism that has other meaning, using elements of nature and physical effort, to reflect the spiritual counterparts of what is going on inside the heads and hearts of men.
 
Sep 7, 2012
532
0
0
#79
So what is the "Tribulation, the great tribulation" if it is not God's wrath on the Earth? It is certainly NOT human caused, and it is hardly just the normal natural occurrences.

Was Christ's death on the cross merely an ordinary death? Reports from that era suggest that some people lived for days hung on crosses.

And what about Isaiah 53? Is it not speaking about the Messiah?

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,

he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

Your rejection of the substitutionary sacrifice leaves you alone with the law and it can only condemn you. (and leaves you out of the body of Christ.)
 
A

anonymous04

Guest
#80
Either way you look at it....Wrath is not stored up for the righteous. If you question things why not use your faith and ask God?