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Here's chapter 4...
The question of the ages… with all the terrible things that are going to happen during the tribulation period, the next logical question is whether or not God’s people will go through it or be taken from the world beforehand. This is one of the most hotly debated areas of Bible interpretation, and everyone’s got their opinion. So let’s ask God for his.
Reread Jesus’ words in the passages of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Jesus told His disciples that they would recognize by seeing these events happen that He was near. Digest that. We will know He is coming when we see these things happen. We can’t see these things happen if we’re not here. And they happen before He returns. And we’re here until He returns. That’s how we are able to see them happen before His return. Because we are here.
Sorry. It’s just really important that certain people understand that point.
Elsewhere, John records four instances where Jesus said He would raise His people up on the last day[1]. He also says that Martha, mourning with Jesus over the death of Lazarus, confessed her belief that the resurrection occurs on the last day, which Jesus did not dispute or correct[2]. First Thessalonians 4:15-17 says that those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means proceed those who have died; that the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive and remain are caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. On the last day.
Think about it. The living are not taken up until after He takes up the dead… and the dead are taken on the last day, right as He returns. Which means we are here to see the last day, which is the day He returns. Until then we are here.
Sorry. It’s just really important that you all understand this.
We will see these things. We do not escape judgment. God clearly states that over and over again throughout His word. Back to it in a second…
Let’s look at that being caught up to meet the Lord, with a focus on the ‘to meet’ part of it. In Biblical times, when a dignitary or visitor was coming to town, it was customary for those whom he was coming to see to go out ‘to meet’ him, and then escort him on the final leg of his journey[3]. When we are caught up ‘to meet’ Jesus, we will then turn around and “escort” Him on His way to earth. He does not change direction and take us back to Heaven. He’s on His way to return to earth to rule for the next millennium. We will see these things, be caught up ‘to meet’ Him as He approaches, and return to earth with Him.
But we WILL see these things.
He even says there’ll be a soundtrack… that He will return with the sound of a trumpet that all the world will hear. Looking in the book of Revelation[4] John sees Christ opening 7 seals on a scroll, which is followed by 7 angels who sound trumpets. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Paul says that the Lord wild descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. Talking about the resurrection (when the dead are caught up, which is before the living are) in 1 Cor. 15 Paul calls it a mystery and in verse 52 says it will come at “the last trumpet”. Revelation 10:7 states that in the day the last angel sounds his trumpet, the mystery is finished. We find an account of that last (7th) trumpet being sounded in Revelation 11:14; those gathered around God’s throne praise Him, shouting with loud voices that His time has come to reign, to judge the dead, to reward His people, and to destroy the wicked.
As each trumpet is sounded, the calamities of judgment befall mankind. And we hear those trumpets blow here on earth. AND it isn’t until we hear the LAST trumpet sound that we are taken up. That last trumpet sounds the last judgment of God upon man, and only then does He to come gather us together to rule over the world. After the judgment, which are the tribulation events. Which we are here to see.
Sorry. It’s just really important...
Judgment. God’s People have never escaped His judgment. God’s miracle of deliverance from trial has never been accomplished by removing His people from it, but by providing the means to bring them through it. And bringing them through it has always required their participation. For example, when the angel of death went through Egypt to kill the firstborns, God told His people how to avoid it by sprinkling the blood of a lamb on their door posts[5]. Those who participated so were spared. Those who didn’t suffered, even among the Jews. Then, when He lead His people out of the country He told them to plunder the Egyptians and haul all they could take with them. It was only after these provisions ran out that He interceded with the manna and quail, and these only lasted until they were able to provide for themselves again. I use these two examples here because if you compare the judgments against the Egyptians with the end time judgments, you’ll find that many events are very similar and maybe we should take a hint. God’s pattern throughout the Bible are clear on this… He says we’ll see judgment.
Allow me to explain a moment here WHY it is so important. Does it really matter whether the ‘rapture’ (a misnomer) occurs before or after the tribulation? Jesus told His disciples that the time of tribulation would be as in the days of Noah[6]. Noah was not taken out of the world during its judgment, but provided the means by which to survive it. But it was dependent upon Noah being obedient and faithful to prepare for it as the Lord instructed. Suppose that, having been warned of the coming flood and told to build the ark, Noah decided that it wasn’t important, ‘God will save me’, and he didn’t build the boat. Maybe God would have enabled Noah to dogpaddle those 40 days. Or maybe ol’ Noah would have drowned with the rest. Mankind was, after all, being judged for disbelief and disobedience.
Jesus taught us to expect judgment and tribulation, and we’ve seen a multiple of others that back that up. Think about what will come: war, famine, disease, crippling pollution, lawlessness, mass earth upheavals, yada yada yada. If we expect to have to survive it all we’ll need to be prepared. So how might God have us prepare for this? Suppose He wants us to stockpile food, water, and medical supplies. That may not be so easy to get our cooperation with if we don’t think we’re going to be around to need it. God told Noah to build a boat; maybe He’d tell you to buy a bus. How we view the timing of the ‘rapture’ will make a BIG difference in how willing we are respond to what God would have us do to physically prepare for the judgment He tells us we’re going to see.
And more importantly – it will affect how we’ll respond to be spiritually prepared. Jesus said evil will increase, that we will be hated, persecuted, betrayed by friends and family, and hauled off to be killed. It is little wonder that He also said that many of us will turn away from Him. Duh. We are the seed planted amid the rocks, and when the heat’s on those who are not prepared will not be strong enough to stand - much less fight back. End time prophecies show spiritual persecution and warfare on levels unseen since Old Testament times. Those who aren’t trained and versed in such things are going to get slaughtered, or worse,turn away.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Paul talks about the coming of the Lord and our gathering to Him, and he says that day will not come until after the apostasy (which is the mass turning away from and rejection of God) and the ‘antichrist’ is revealed. Everyone knows about the ‘antichrist’, but few know about the apostasy. Paul put them on an equal footing.
Jesus says it’s going to happen, that we will see it happen, and that we need to be prepared or we will fail Him!!!
Sorry. It’s just really important that we all understand this.
In 1 Peter 4:12-13 we are told not to think strangely about the time of trial that is to come upon us. And Jesus Himself prayed that we not be taken from the world, but delivered from its evil[7], and commanded us to pray for the strength to endure. Remember ol’ Noah? He was probably pretty glad he’d built the boat when those raindrops started falling and the waters started welling up. But he had to believe he was going to see it happen or he’d have never driven the first nail. Jesus says we will be in much the same boat.
Ok. There’s another part to the picture here. We’ve talked about the seals and the trumpets, and the judgment and tribulation and which manifest just prior to Jesus’ return. But Revelation also describes bowls being poured out and earthly activity happening with these. What are these bowls and how do they differ from the seals and trumpets?
The familiar passages in Matthew[8] and Luke[9] where two are side by side and one is taken and the other left is oft taught to indicate the ‘rapture’. But when His disciples asked where these people go, Jesus says the bodies will be where the vultures gather - some translations say eagles, the underlying gist is that the birds eat dead bodies. But when Jesus takes us, we are reunited with our bodies in His presence, not separated from them for bird food. In Matthew 13:24 Jesus tells the parables of the tares, where in the end He says not only are His people taken, but the evil ones are also removed and burned like chaff. This is something beyond judgment, and beyond our tenure here. This is what befalls mankind once we are taken out and before He returns us.
In Revelation 14:14-20, John tells us that the Son of Man reaps the earth for His, then an angel also reaps and throws these into the winepress of God’s wrath. Again, we heard in Revelation 11:14 that when the 7th trumpet sounded, we are gathered around God’s throne to praise Him, shouting with loud voices that His time has come to reign, to judge the dead, to reward His people, and to destroy the wicked.
In Psalm 119:119 God says the wicked will be removed like dross. This is the term for the slag or waste material produced in metal casting, which is removed from the end product by literally hammering it off. God is telling us that these people are going to get pounded. Proverbs 2 and Isaiah 13 also speak of their fate. These are the truly wicked who are removed from the world after God has collected His own to Him.
This is the Wrath. After the seven seals and trumpets of judgment has heralded the ‘rapture’ of His people, John sees 7 angels pour out bowls which hold the wrath of God[10]. The events described occurring during the pouring out of God’s bowls of wrath remove the remaining wicked from the earth after Jesus has collected His own. This IS a deliberate lowering of the hammer by God upon those who oppose Him.
But Matthew and Luke say there will be those who survive even this.
Ok, back to what’s at hand. So when will we see the ‘rapture’? Provided you live that long, after we have seen the world’s judgment, but before God lets loose His Wrath upon it. I can’t give you a date and time, but here’s what to look for - when you see Jerusalem being surrounded and evacuated, well, don’t bother to grab your toothbrush.
But there’s a bigger picture to all this. Every one of us exists in the end times - as Jesus told the arrogant farmer, the ‘rapture’ could come for any one of us today. Unless you’re one of the very few still hanging on after all this hits the fan, that heart attack, that car crash, that your-ticket-is-punched is your rapture baby. Right then and there. Hub and rim, in the twinkling of an eye. You’re raptured.
So then, if we’re going to go through the tribulation judgment, what happens to us?
[1] John 6:39, 40, 44, 54
[2] John 11:24
[3] Genesis 14:17; 19:1; 29:13 for example
[4] 6-11
[5] Exodus 12
[6] Matt. 24:35-39
[7] John 17:15
[8] 24:30
[9] 17:34
[10] Rev 15
WILL WE GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION?
The question of the ages… with all the terrible things that are going to happen during the tribulation period, the next logical question is whether or not God’s people will go through it or be taken from the world beforehand. This is one of the most hotly debated areas of Bible interpretation, and everyone’s got their opinion. So let’s ask God for his.
Reread Jesus’ words in the passages of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Jesus told His disciples that they would recognize by seeing these events happen that He was near. Digest that. We will know He is coming when we see these things happen. We can’t see these things happen if we’re not here. And they happen before He returns. And we’re here until He returns. That’s how we are able to see them happen before His return. Because we are here.
Sorry. It’s just really important that certain people understand that point.
Elsewhere, John records four instances where Jesus said He would raise His people up on the last day[1]. He also says that Martha, mourning with Jesus over the death of Lazarus, confessed her belief that the resurrection occurs on the last day, which Jesus did not dispute or correct[2]. First Thessalonians 4:15-17 says that those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means proceed those who have died; that the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive and remain are caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. On the last day.
Think about it. The living are not taken up until after He takes up the dead… and the dead are taken on the last day, right as He returns. Which means we are here to see the last day, which is the day He returns. Until then we are here.
Sorry. It’s just really important that you all understand this.
We will see these things. We do not escape judgment. God clearly states that over and over again throughout His word. Back to it in a second…
Let’s look at that being caught up to meet the Lord, with a focus on the ‘to meet’ part of it. In Biblical times, when a dignitary or visitor was coming to town, it was customary for those whom he was coming to see to go out ‘to meet’ him, and then escort him on the final leg of his journey[3]. When we are caught up ‘to meet’ Jesus, we will then turn around and “escort” Him on His way to earth. He does not change direction and take us back to Heaven. He’s on His way to return to earth to rule for the next millennium. We will see these things, be caught up ‘to meet’ Him as He approaches, and return to earth with Him.
But we WILL see these things.
He even says there’ll be a soundtrack… that He will return with the sound of a trumpet that all the world will hear. Looking in the book of Revelation[4] John sees Christ opening 7 seals on a scroll, which is followed by 7 angels who sound trumpets. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Paul says that the Lord wild descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. Talking about the resurrection (when the dead are caught up, which is before the living are) in 1 Cor. 15 Paul calls it a mystery and in verse 52 says it will come at “the last trumpet”. Revelation 10:7 states that in the day the last angel sounds his trumpet, the mystery is finished. We find an account of that last (7th) trumpet being sounded in Revelation 11:14; those gathered around God’s throne praise Him, shouting with loud voices that His time has come to reign, to judge the dead, to reward His people, and to destroy the wicked.
As each trumpet is sounded, the calamities of judgment befall mankind. And we hear those trumpets blow here on earth. AND it isn’t until we hear the LAST trumpet sound that we are taken up. That last trumpet sounds the last judgment of God upon man, and only then does He to come gather us together to rule over the world. After the judgment, which are the tribulation events. Which we are here to see.
Sorry. It’s just really important...
Judgment. God’s People have never escaped His judgment. God’s miracle of deliverance from trial has never been accomplished by removing His people from it, but by providing the means to bring them through it. And bringing them through it has always required their participation. For example, when the angel of death went through Egypt to kill the firstborns, God told His people how to avoid it by sprinkling the blood of a lamb on their door posts[5]. Those who participated so were spared. Those who didn’t suffered, even among the Jews. Then, when He lead His people out of the country He told them to plunder the Egyptians and haul all they could take with them. It was only after these provisions ran out that He interceded with the manna and quail, and these only lasted until they were able to provide for themselves again. I use these two examples here because if you compare the judgments against the Egyptians with the end time judgments, you’ll find that many events are very similar and maybe we should take a hint. God’s pattern throughout the Bible are clear on this… He says we’ll see judgment.
Allow me to explain a moment here WHY it is so important. Does it really matter whether the ‘rapture’ (a misnomer) occurs before or after the tribulation? Jesus told His disciples that the time of tribulation would be as in the days of Noah[6]. Noah was not taken out of the world during its judgment, but provided the means by which to survive it. But it was dependent upon Noah being obedient and faithful to prepare for it as the Lord instructed. Suppose that, having been warned of the coming flood and told to build the ark, Noah decided that it wasn’t important, ‘God will save me’, and he didn’t build the boat. Maybe God would have enabled Noah to dogpaddle those 40 days. Or maybe ol’ Noah would have drowned with the rest. Mankind was, after all, being judged for disbelief and disobedience.
Jesus taught us to expect judgment and tribulation, and we’ve seen a multiple of others that back that up. Think about what will come: war, famine, disease, crippling pollution, lawlessness, mass earth upheavals, yada yada yada. If we expect to have to survive it all we’ll need to be prepared. So how might God have us prepare for this? Suppose He wants us to stockpile food, water, and medical supplies. That may not be so easy to get our cooperation with if we don’t think we’re going to be around to need it. God told Noah to build a boat; maybe He’d tell you to buy a bus. How we view the timing of the ‘rapture’ will make a BIG difference in how willing we are respond to what God would have us do to physically prepare for the judgment He tells us we’re going to see.
And more importantly – it will affect how we’ll respond to be spiritually prepared. Jesus said evil will increase, that we will be hated, persecuted, betrayed by friends and family, and hauled off to be killed. It is little wonder that He also said that many of us will turn away from Him. Duh. We are the seed planted amid the rocks, and when the heat’s on those who are not prepared will not be strong enough to stand - much less fight back. End time prophecies show spiritual persecution and warfare on levels unseen since Old Testament times. Those who aren’t trained and versed in such things are going to get slaughtered, or worse,turn away.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Paul talks about the coming of the Lord and our gathering to Him, and he says that day will not come until after the apostasy (which is the mass turning away from and rejection of God) and the ‘antichrist’ is revealed. Everyone knows about the ‘antichrist’, but few know about the apostasy. Paul put them on an equal footing.
Jesus says it’s going to happen, that we will see it happen, and that we need to be prepared or we will fail Him!!!
Sorry. It’s just really important that we all understand this.
In 1 Peter 4:12-13 we are told not to think strangely about the time of trial that is to come upon us. And Jesus Himself prayed that we not be taken from the world, but delivered from its evil[7], and commanded us to pray for the strength to endure. Remember ol’ Noah? He was probably pretty glad he’d built the boat when those raindrops started falling and the waters started welling up. But he had to believe he was going to see it happen or he’d have never driven the first nail. Jesus says we will be in much the same boat.
Ok. There’s another part to the picture here. We’ve talked about the seals and the trumpets, and the judgment and tribulation and which manifest just prior to Jesus’ return. But Revelation also describes bowls being poured out and earthly activity happening with these. What are these bowls and how do they differ from the seals and trumpets?
The familiar passages in Matthew[8] and Luke[9] where two are side by side and one is taken and the other left is oft taught to indicate the ‘rapture’. But when His disciples asked where these people go, Jesus says the bodies will be where the vultures gather - some translations say eagles, the underlying gist is that the birds eat dead bodies. But when Jesus takes us, we are reunited with our bodies in His presence, not separated from them for bird food. In Matthew 13:24 Jesus tells the parables of the tares, where in the end He says not only are His people taken, but the evil ones are also removed and burned like chaff. This is something beyond judgment, and beyond our tenure here. This is what befalls mankind once we are taken out and before He returns us.
In Revelation 14:14-20, John tells us that the Son of Man reaps the earth for His, then an angel also reaps and throws these into the winepress of God’s wrath. Again, we heard in Revelation 11:14 that when the 7th trumpet sounded, we are gathered around God’s throne to praise Him, shouting with loud voices that His time has come to reign, to judge the dead, to reward His people, and to destroy the wicked.
In Psalm 119:119 God says the wicked will be removed like dross. This is the term for the slag or waste material produced in metal casting, which is removed from the end product by literally hammering it off. God is telling us that these people are going to get pounded. Proverbs 2 and Isaiah 13 also speak of their fate. These are the truly wicked who are removed from the world after God has collected His own to Him.
This is the Wrath. After the seven seals and trumpets of judgment has heralded the ‘rapture’ of His people, John sees 7 angels pour out bowls which hold the wrath of God[10]. The events described occurring during the pouring out of God’s bowls of wrath remove the remaining wicked from the earth after Jesus has collected His own. This IS a deliberate lowering of the hammer by God upon those who oppose Him.
But Matthew and Luke say there will be those who survive even this.
Ok, back to what’s at hand. So when will we see the ‘rapture’? Provided you live that long, after we have seen the world’s judgment, but before God lets loose His Wrath upon it. I can’t give you a date and time, but here’s what to look for - when you see Jerusalem being surrounded and evacuated, well, don’t bother to grab your toothbrush.
But there’s a bigger picture to all this. Every one of us exists in the end times - as Jesus told the arrogant farmer, the ‘rapture’ could come for any one of us today. Unless you’re one of the very few still hanging on after all this hits the fan, that heart attack, that car crash, that your-ticket-is-punched is your rapture baby. Right then and there. Hub and rim, in the twinkling of an eye. You’re raptured.
So then, if we’re going to go through the tribulation judgment, what happens to us?
[1] John 6:39, 40, 44, 54
[2] John 11:24
[3] Genesis 14:17; 19:1; 29:13 for example
[4] 6-11
[5] Exodus 12
[6] Matt. 24:35-39
[7] John 17:15
[8] 24:30
[9] 17:34
[10] Rev 15
GOD'S PRE-TRIBULATION PLAN.....
then explain to me why there are two different events in Revelation showing a pre-tribulation rapture for the HOLY BRIDE MEMBERS only..... while the rest of the Church Body..... remains to go through the great tribulation.
and then we see the return of the King and Queen riding down from heaven after that great marriage feast in heaven which is the pre-tribulation rapture of the HOLY BRIDE and then their triumphant return as KING and QUEEN at the second coming.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
notice verse 16-17 which states clearly there shall be a pre-tribulation rapture and it shows the order of this which interweaves with Revelation 4:1 and then goes further to show us the tribulation period.
now lets also look at 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-3
1. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
notice verse 3 states clearly a rapture before the tribulation begins.
now lets take this a bit further.....
Revelation 4:1-2
1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
lets also look at Revelations 19 which shows us a pre-tribulation rapture/marriage feast of the Bride to its betrothed Groom. then it shows us after the marriage feast the second coming which is the return of the King and the Queen.
Revelation 19:7-10
7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
now lets look at that second part of Revelation 19:11-14.
Revelation 19:11-14
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
so explain who are those mentioned in verse 14?
that's the HOLY BRIDE with her KING.........
then explain to me why there are two different events in Revelation showing a pre-tribulation rapture for the HOLY BRIDE MEMBERS only..... while the rest of the Church Body..... remains to go through the great tribulation.
and then we see the return of the King and Queen riding down from heaven after that great marriage feast in heaven which is the pre-tribulation rapture of the HOLY BRIDE and then their triumphant return as KING and QUEEN at the second coming.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
notice verse 16-17 which states clearly there shall be a pre-tribulation rapture and it shows the order of this which interweaves with Revelation 4:1 and then goes further to show us the tribulation period.
now lets also look at 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-3
1. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
notice verse 3 states clearly a rapture before the tribulation begins.
now lets take this a bit further.....
Revelation 4:1-2
1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
lets also look at Revelations 19 which shows us a pre-tribulation rapture/marriage feast of the Bride to its betrothed Groom. then it shows us after the marriage feast the second coming which is the return of the King and the Queen.
Revelation 19:7-10
7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
now lets look at that second part of Revelation 19:11-14.
Revelation 19:11-14
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
so explain who are those mentioned in verse 14?
that's the HOLY BRIDE with her KING.........
P
That’s us coming back with jesus from the marriage supper of the lamb to rule and reign with Christ for the 1000 years
There is nothing in all them scriptures about Jesus coming before the tribulation
It’s funny how there is an event and story in the scriptures showing the new heaven and the new earth.
And an event and story in the scriptures showing the 1000 year reign of Christ.
And an event and story in the scriptures and story showing all about the tribulation.
And an event in the scriptures and story showing Christs coming 29Immediately after the tribulation.
But there is no event, or story, about Jesus coming before the tribulation.
No event, no story, no chapter, just theory.
You would think there would be a chapter or story or an event in the scriptures for one of the best things that will happen. But no nothing. And I wonder why that is? Because it’s not in there, because it’s a delusion.
There is nothing in all them scriptures about Jesus coming before the tribulation
It’s funny how there is an event and story in the scriptures showing the new heaven and the new earth.
And an event and story in the scriptures showing the 1000 year reign of Christ.
And an event and story in the scriptures and story showing all about the tribulation.
And an event in the scriptures and story showing Christs coming 29Immediately after the tribulation.
But there is no event, or story, about Jesus coming before the tribulation.
No event, no story, no chapter, just theory.
You would think there would be a chapter or story or an event in the scriptures for one of the best things that will happen. But no nothing. And I wonder why that is? Because it’s not in there, because it’s a delusion.
Copy/paste from my post in other thread....
I think this will be the last time I post on this topic because as I've learnt from other ongoing threads, those who believe an opposing side will never change their point of view even when you present scripture right there in front of them. It's pointless to keep addressing these same threads which accomplish nothing but the same arguments. So this is for those that come here for assurance of God's promises and to know that we are not sheep being led to the slaughter. We are not of this world, soon we will be home and those unbelievers left here will be given a last chance to be saved, though they will pay with their lives.
Many ignore scriptures but you cannot erase these types of messages from the bible....
Rev 3:10: "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from (out) the hour of trial (testing) which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth"
The purpose of the hour is to try/test those who 'dwell' upon the earth, as in, those of the world (the unbelievers). We are not of this world. There is no purpose for us during the tribulation because we've already been tested and we passed!! This is a promise to us!!
We're currently living in the time of the church as we are here and we are supposed to witness to the unbelieving world. The tribulation is the last call to repentance and specifically for the children of disobedience. God focuses on Israel during the tribulation, the church will be in heaven as we will return with Christ. The bible specifically mentions the wrath of God during the tribulation. It is God's last call to repentance. He is in control of every event that takes place and will use this tribulation to bring about repentance. God's wrath - He uses Satan in the tribulation. It is all part of His plan. We, the current day church, are not a part of that.
1 Thess 5:9: "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (tribulation would be described as a time of wrath. God is in control, especially with the 7 year tribulation)
1 Thess 1:10: "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come"
Romans 5:9: "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him"
Colossians 3:6: "Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience"
Salvation has been offered to the gentiles currently (this doesn't mean Jews are not saved as some are) but once all gentiles are saved, that are chosen to be saved, God will then turn to Israel and focus on them.
So you have to look at the purpose of the tribulation and why the church will not be around at this time. The time of us, the church, will soon come to an end because we are no longer needed and God's will is to then focus on Israel.
Yes, it's great to know what happened in our past and what happens in our future, but it doesn't mean we will be here to see the 'mark of the beast' ourselves, although the message is directed at many who will see the mark. We just have been given knowledge of things to come.
There will be tribulation saints and many warnings are directed at them, addressing them, as this will be the times they will be in. Just like the Old Testament was in effect before we were born. We don't discount the Old Testament and it's teachings, like the feasts, etc, but we can see that it was addressed before our time to the people of Israel. Just like the 'mark of the beast' we can read about now but it will be specifically for the tribulation saints who will experience these things. Just because all these things are revealed to us does not mean the 'mark of the beast' is something we, the church, will specifically see, but some will see it as it addresses saints that will be beheaded during that time, and it instructs them not to take this mark. There is also no stopping us from warning others not to take this mark when they see it, although we pray that they be saved now that God may keep them from that hour also.
If the wisdom I received on this is wrong then I accept that but I haven't found any scripture to suggest otherwise. If we are left here, then when this country becomes communist and they take me away in the middle of the night, I will never deny Christ. However, one thing to mention is that those not expecting a rapture will not be ready for it as they will be looking for Antichrist and focusing on all the end time events to take place first, rather than looking for Jesus to catch us up. Also, the unbelieving world are not being prepared for anything to happen because many Christians refuse to acknowledge any type of rapture taking place, so unbelievers are being left in the dark. My guess is they will be told a lie by the authorities about what really happened to their family members and all the children...this will be a way to get them to take the mark - for peace and security because of an awful tragedy which killed their relatives, not realizing it was Jesus that actually took them. They will use this sudden disappearance and blame it on a terrorist attack or something of this nature.
I think this will be the last time I post on this topic because as I've learnt from other ongoing threads, those who believe an opposing side will never change their point of view even when you present scripture right there in front of them. It's pointless to keep addressing these same threads which accomplish nothing but the same arguments. So this is for those that come here for assurance of God's promises and to know that we are not sheep being led to the slaughter. We are not of this world, soon we will be home and those unbelievers left here will be given a last chance to be saved, though they will pay with their lives.
Many ignore scriptures but you cannot erase these types of messages from the bible....
Rev 3:10: "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from (out) the hour of trial (testing) which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth"
The purpose of the hour is to try/test those who 'dwell' upon the earth, as in, those of the world (the unbelievers). We are not of this world. There is no purpose for us during the tribulation because we've already been tested and we passed!! This is a promise to us!!
We're currently living in the time of the church as we are here and we are supposed to witness to the unbelieving world. The tribulation is the last call to repentance and specifically for the children of disobedience. God focuses on Israel during the tribulation, the church will be in heaven as we will return with Christ. The bible specifically mentions the wrath of God during the tribulation. It is God's last call to repentance. He is in control of every event that takes place and will use this tribulation to bring about repentance. God's wrath - He uses Satan in the tribulation. It is all part of His plan. We, the current day church, are not a part of that.
1 Thess 5:9: "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (tribulation would be described as a time of wrath. God is in control, especially with the 7 year tribulation)
1 Thess 1:10: "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come"
Romans 5:9: "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him"
Colossians 3:6: "Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience"
Salvation has been offered to the gentiles currently (this doesn't mean Jews are not saved as some are) but once all gentiles are saved, that are chosen to be saved, God will then turn to Israel and focus on them.
So you have to look at the purpose of the tribulation and why the church will not be around at this time. The time of us, the church, will soon come to an end because we are no longer needed and God's will is to then focus on Israel.
Yes, it's great to know what happened in our past and what happens in our future, but it doesn't mean we will be here to see the 'mark of the beast' ourselves, although the message is directed at many who will see the mark. We just have been given knowledge of things to come.
There will be tribulation saints and many warnings are directed at them, addressing them, as this will be the times they will be in. Just like the Old Testament was in effect before we were born. We don't discount the Old Testament and it's teachings, like the feasts, etc, but we can see that it was addressed before our time to the people of Israel. Just like the 'mark of the beast' we can read about now but it will be specifically for the tribulation saints who will experience these things. Just because all these things are revealed to us does not mean the 'mark of the beast' is something we, the church, will specifically see, but some will see it as it addresses saints that will be beheaded during that time, and it instructs them not to take this mark. There is also no stopping us from warning others not to take this mark when they see it, although we pray that they be saved now that God may keep them from that hour also.
If the wisdom I received on this is wrong then I accept that but I haven't found any scripture to suggest otherwise. If we are left here, then when this country becomes communist and they take me away in the middle of the night, I will never deny Christ. However, one thing to mention is that those not expecting a rapture will not be ready for it as they will be looking for Antichrist and focusing on all the end time events to take place first, rather than looking for Jesus to catch us up. Also, the unbelieving world are not being prepared for anything to happen because many Christians refuse to acknowledge any type of rapture taking place, so unbelievers are being left in the dark. My guess is they will be told a lie by the authorities about what really happened to their family members and all the children...this will be a way to get them to take the mark - for peace and security because of an awful tragedy which killed their relatives, not realizing it was Jesus that actually took them. They will use this sudden disappearance and blame it on a terrorist attack or something of this nature.
P
Interesting.
Since when has God killed his children of obedience with his wrath?
The wrath of God passed them by and no harm came upon them that obeyed the words of Moses. The plagues come upon the Egyptians and the crops cattle and first born, but not upon Gods children.
The wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
The hour of temptation, is when the antichrist and his solders grab you by the throat and say take the mark and bow to the image or be put to death. But he has to catch you first.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
God will keep some of us from the hour of temptation but if not.
Daniel 3:18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
Now that’s NOT the go too spirit if Joshua now is it.
You have to think outside the box Katy-follower. You and I are not the only ones that read this thread and our job is to feed his sheep.
P
And what scripture is that RickyZ?
None of them verses say anything about Jesus coming to get us before the great tribulation.
Nothing about the last trumpet before the tribulation.
Nothing about raising the dead before the tribulation.
Nothing about Jesus coming in the clouds before the tribulation.
Nothing about resurrection before the tribulation
Nothing about Angels do any Reaping before the tribulation
Nothing about the voice of an angel before the tribulation.
Nothing, and no event, about Jesus coming before the tribulation.
It’s just theory, no story no event no chapters NOTHING because it’s just a delusion
None of them verses say anything about Jesus coming to get us before the great tribulation.
Nothing about the last trumpet before the tribulation.
Nothing about raising the dead before the tribulation.
Nothing about Jesus coming in the clouds before the tribulation.
Nothing about resurrection before the tribulation
Nothing about Angels do any Reaping before the tribulation
Nothing about the voice of an angel before the tribulation.
Nothing, and no event, about Jesus coming before the tribulation.
It’s just theory, no story no event no chapters NOTHING because it’s just a delusion
There is no pre-trib. rapture.
The very word comes from an occultic practice of levitating.
Research the originating of this doctrine, (both when and where), and you will see it is
extra biblical.
Jesus returns ONCE. That's why it's called the second coming.
It started in Scotland by a teenage girl sometime in the 1830's.
It is just another false teaching to rend the body of Christ ineffectual.
How will it be when people are commanded to take a tracking device(the mark), but KNOW that it couldn't be the mark of the beast
because they haven't been raptured out yet.
Just food for thought.
-But His own will understand, and do mighty exploits. - (In the face of the beast)
The very word comes from an occultic practice of levitating.
Research the originating of this doctrine, (both when and where), and you will see it is
extra biblical.
Jesus returns ONCE. That's why it's called the second coming.
It started in Scotland by a teenage girl sometime in the 1830's.
It is just another false teaching to rend the body of Christ ineffectual.
How will it be when people are commanded to take a tracking device(the mark), but KNOW that it couldn't be the mark of the beast
because they haven't been raptured out yet.
Just food for thought.
-But His own will understand, and do mighty exploits. - (In the face of the beast)
Satan loves to create counterfeits to deceive. He copies everything God does, giving it an evil appearance, so as to deceive. For example, God uses specific numbers which relate to prophecies. Satan copied and introduced numerology into witchcraft... and I can name many more counterfeits. So just because the concept of a 'rapture' appeared in an occultic practice does not make it invalid, since there were followers close to the time of Christ that experienced being caught up, so it's not something that only came about in the 1800's. Being caught up in those last days is very biblical.
Yes, Jesus returns once. Before His second coming we meet Him in the clouds, so that is not counted as the 2nd coming because He did not return to earth yet, we meet Him in the clouds. We return with Him.
I really don't believe it will all come down to a small insertable chip. The mark will be a blatant allegiance to the system, in opposition to God.
How can you liken a child of God to a lost soul in the world that's deceived? Christians who worship God in Spirit and in truth will not be caught off guard or tricked into accepting this mark because it will blatantly be in direct opposition to God. We know that many will be beheaded for their refusal to take the mark, so this proves that people will be given the option to "accept or reject" (Satan's counterfeit again). The lost are deceived and don't know any better, so many will take it.
I trust in God for the promises He has made and I'm sorry you can't see them. If you believe He is leaving you here to go through wrath and die then you are not trusting in Him. I will be ready to return home whereas many of you will be looking for Antichrist and death to the church first. You will not be expecting it. Maybe you won't be taken if you have a heart of disbelief?
Do you not know about the 7 feasts? 4 have been fulfilled already. The next to come is the Feast of Trumpets (the rapture). The 6th is the 2nd coming of Christ and the 7th is the millennium.
Link --> A Concise Overview of the Seven Feasts of Israel
Yes, Jesus returns once. Before His second coming we meet Him in the clouds, so that is not counted as the 2nd coming because He did not return to earth yet, we meet Him in the clouds. We return with Him.
I really don't believe it will all come down to a small insertable chip. The mark will be a blatant allegiance to the system, in opposition to God.
How can you liken a child of God to a lost soul in the world that's deceived? Christians who worship God in Spirit and in truth will not be caught off guard or tricked into accepting this mark because it will blatantly be in direct opposition to God. We know that many will be beheaded for their refusal to take the mark, so this proves that people will be given the option to "accept or reject" (Satan's counterfeit again). The lost are deceived and don't know any better, so many will take it.
I trust in God for the promises He has made and I'm sorry you can't see them. If you believe He is leaving you here to go through wrath and die then you are not trusting in Him. I will be ready to return home whereas many of you will be looking for Antichrist and death to the church first. You will not be expecting it. Maybe you won't be taken if you have a heart of disbelief?
Do you not know about the 7 feasts? 4 have been fulfilled already. The next to come is the Feast of Trumpets (the rapture). The 6th is the 2nd coming of Christ and the 7th is the millennium.
Link --> A Concise Overview of the Seven Feasts of Israel
I'm well aware that others read these forums, especially the lost, but this very topic with it's opposition does nothing to help them, it just confuses them more when they see Christians that just can't agree on anything, and it's a stumbling block to new Christians. Even if this is a non salvation issue, many don't know that.
For every 5 scriptures I share you would just share 5 in return, so this thread accomplishes nothing.
If I feel a conviction to step away from a thread then I will. I think enough has been shared here anyway. This topic always comes up and has the same arguments.
I let the Holy Spirit interpret for me and I see a loving God that protects His own and keeps His promises, even when we struggle to keep ours, and we let Him down.
Our time of trials and tribulations is now because we live in a fallen world with non believers and we're trying to live Godly lives. We've offered up our lives to serve Him and witness to the lost (Romans 21:1: "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service"). There is much purging going on now for us believers, our faith is being tested and God is wanting us to be more like Christ. The coming tribulation is for non believers.
The current time we're in is for us, the church, to work. Because we keep His command to persevere, we will be kept from this time of Jacob's trouble.
For every 5 scriptures I share you would just share 5 in return, so this thread accomplishes nothing.
If I feel a conviction to step away from a thread then I will. I think enough has been shared here anyway. This topic always comes up and has the same arguments.
I let the Holy Spirit interpret for me and I see a loving God that protects His own and keeps His promises, even when we struggle to keep ours, and we let Him down.
Our time of trials and tribulations is now because we live in a fallen world with non believers and we're trying to live Godly lives. We've offered up our lives to serve Him and witness to the lost (Romans 21:1: "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service"). There is much purging going on now for us believers, our faith is being tested and God is wanting us to be more like Christ. The coming tribulation is for non believers.
The current time we're in is for us, the church, to work. Because we keep His command to persevere, we will be kept from this time of Jacob's trouble.
His appearing at the cloud base would qualify as a 'coming'.
And as for christians not being deceived, has not it been clear down through the ages that people
worship at the alter of various gods in the name of Jesus? (Didn't you post quite often about a certain 'church' where millions submit?)
So, whether it's blatant or not, how are people who follow the advice of a greater(pastor or clergy) going to be able to decide for themselves?
I say the mark of the beast system is nothing more than a tracking device. Because satan is subtle.
And he is the best at appearing as an angel of light. - It'll be good for you(they will say) it will help protect you and your kids.
I mean, Satan didn't brand a big 'X' on Adam and Eve's forehead, he just offered them some fruit.
So it will be at the last. Lucifer is not stupid. - He knows how to deceive.
Oh but God wouldn't allow that to happen! - His word already says He will.
And as for christians not being deceived, has not it been clear down through the ages that people
worship at the alter of various gods in the name of Jesus? (Didn't you post quite often about a certain 'church' where millions submit?)
So, whether it's blatant or not, how are people who follow the advice of a greater(pastor or clergy) going to be able to decide for themselves?
I say the mark of the beast system is nothing more than a tracking device. Because satan is subtle.
And he is the best at appearing as an angel of light. - It'll be good for you(they will say) it will help protect you and your kids.
I mean, Satan didn't brand a big 'X' on Adam and Eve's forehead, he just offered them some fruit.
So it will be at the last. Lucifer is not stupid. - He knows how to deceive.
Oh but God wouldn't allow that to happen! - His word already says He will.
P
I have been taught in our churches (which have ranged from hard-line cessationist Baptist to a little over the top Charismatic) that the rapture
is Biblical. (just sayin', in Katy's defense, that it's not just she...)
I need to search this topic for myself, asking the Holy Spirit to help me understand,
since I can see both sides (so far...).
But in the meantime, I do trust the Lord with my future,
and whatever He chooses (has chosen, I should say
) is good.
And if it is for me to remain, should this occur in my lifetime,
He will provide and care for me, or take me Home, having given me the grace and strength I need to stand.
I need to look into the history, and more importantly, the Word.
In the past, I accepted what was taught in church, since it didn't seem unscriptural,
but test all things, yeah?
Namby-pamby, perhaps. *rolls eyes and smiles*
And not that it isn't important, since the Lord of Glory chose to speak of it in His word.
But until I am certain (I and my husband) I can't take sides,
except to say, I love you, Katy.
You're not the only one who sees this as a possibility.
Because I honestly do not understand why the children according to the Promise
will receive the wrath Christ already atoned for...
just don't get that. Yet.
is Biblical. (just sayin', in Katy's defense, that it's not just she...)
I need to search this topic for myself, asking the Holy Spirit to help me understand,
since I can see both sides (so far...).
But in the meantime, I do trust the Lord with my future,
and whatever He chooses (has chosen, I should say
) is good.And if it is for me to remain, should this occur in my lifetime,
He will provide and care for me, or take me Home, having given me the grace and strength I need to stand.
I need to look into the history, and more importantly, the Word.
In the past, I accepted what was taught in church, since it didn't seem unscriptural,
but test all things, yeah?
Namby-pamby, perhaps. *rolls eyes and smiles*
And not that it isn't important, since the Lord of Glory chose to speak of it in His word.
But until I am certain (I and my husband) I can't take sides,
except to say, I love you, Katy.
You're not the only one who sees this as a possibility.
Because I honestly do not understand why the children according to the Promise
will receive the wrath Christ already atoned for...
just don't get that. Yet.
C
Amen to everything you said, even down to the periods and commas. Just how can it be that God is angered at the righteous and that his children will feel the wrath He has against unrighteousness? Has not Jesus justified us and therefore, we are innocient and found not worthy of judgment. In my Jesus, I find rest, not fear. There is therefore no condemnation in those who are His children.
I don't think the gathering in Matt 24:31 is the rapture of the church but the gathering of the tribulation saints, symbolized as 144,000 remnant of Israel (Rev 14:1,19:17), at the second coming of Christ. They once rejected the Messiah but will become saved after the rapture of the church, hold onto their faith, and refuse the mark of the beast. At the sound of the great trumpet (Isaiah 27:13, Rev 7:1) the Lord will appear and the angels will gather those that become saved during Jacob's trouble for the millennial reign.
With all the debates on the timing of the rapture, I believe it's important that believers do not slumber but fervently prepare for the coming of the Bridegroom, make sure our lamp is filled with oil and burning, watch and pray, and preach the gospel.
With all the debates on the timing of the rapture, I believe it's important that believers do not slumber but fervently prepare for the coming of the Bridegroom, make sure our lamp is filled with oil and burning, watch and pray, and preach the gospel.
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P
Let’s have a look at some of these verses that you use to say Jesus is coming before the great tribulation.
Nothing in them verses about Jesus coming before the tribulation.
But it does speaks about the last trumpet which is at the end of the tribulation.
No Jesus coming before the tribulation in them verses.
Nothing about the last trumpet and the dead raised or the living raised before the tribulation.
Nothing at all about before the tribulation
And those verses say nothing about Jesus coming before the tribulation.
Nothing about the dead or the living raising, Nothing about Jesus coming in the clouds.
Nothing about before the tribulation at all.
And those verses say nothing about Jesus coming before the tribulation.
Just John being called into the spirit to see things to come.
Nothing about the dead or the living raising, Nothing about Jesus coming in the clouds
Nothing about before the tribulation at all.
And those verses say nothing about Jesus coming before the tribulation.
It’s just about the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Nothing about the dead or the living raising, Nothing about Jesus coming in the clouds
Nothing about the last trumpet, or not seeing the antichrist or going through the tribulation or not going through the tribulation, Nothing.
Nothing about before the tribulation at all.
And those verses say nothing about Jesus coming before the tribulation.
Just Jesus and us coming back from the marriage supper of the Lamb to rule with him.
Nothing about the dead or the living raising, Nothing about Jesus coming in the clouds
Nothing about the last trumpet, or not seeing the antichrist or going through the tribulation or not going through the tribulation, Nothing.
Nothing about before the tribulation at all.
See it’s a delusion.
And here you have a brother trying to wake you up
Nothing in them verses about Jesus coming before the tribulation.
But it does speaks about the last trumpet which is at the end of the tribulation.
No Jesus coming before the tribulation in them verses.
Nothing about the last trumpet and the dead raised or the living raised before the tribulation.
Nothing at all about before the tribulation
And those verses say nothing about Jesus coming before the tribulation.
Nothing about the dead or the living raising, Nothing about Jesus coming in the clouds.
Nothing about before the tribulation at all.
And those verses say nothing about Jesus coming before the tribulation.
Just John being called into the spirit to see things to come.
Nothing about the dead or the living raising, Nothing about Jesus coming in the clouds
Nothing about before the tribulation at all.
And those verses say nothing about Jesus coming before the tribulation.
It’s just about the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Nothing about the dead or the living raising, Nothing about Jesus coming in the clouds
Nothing about the last trumpet, or not seeing the antichrist or going through the tribulation or not going through the tribulation, Nothing.
Nothing about before the tribulation at all.
And those verses say nothing about Jesus coming before the tribulation.
Just Jesus and us coming back from the marriage supper of the Lamb to rule with him.
Nothing about the dead or the living raising, Nothing about Jesus coming in the clouds
Nothing about the last trumpet, or not seeing the antichrist or going through the tribulation or not going through the tribulation, Nothing.
Nothing about before the tribulation at all.
See it’s a delusion.
And here you have a brother trying to wake you up
G
Tell me one thing! Where in God's Holy Word, has he given example of the righteous being saved from tribulation (troublous times) where have they ever been saved from entering into the fire?
We see so many passages were God saved his righteous followers while in tribulatoin (troublous times),while in the fire; not from the fire.
Exodus 14:30 (KJV)
30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore.
1 Samuel 4:3 (KJV)
3 And when the people were come into the camp, the elders of Israel said, Wherefore hath the LORD smitten us to day before the Philistines? Let us fetch the ark of the covenant of the LORD out of Shiloh unto us, that, when it cometh among us, it may save us out of the hand of our enemies.
1 Samuel 7:8 (KJV)
8 And the children of Israel said to Samuel, Cease not to cry unto the LORD our God for us, that he will save us out of the hand of the Philistines.
1 Samuel 9:16 (KJV)
16 To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him to be captain over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me.
1 Samuel 10:17-19 (KJV)
17 And Samuel called the people together unto the LORD to Mizpeh;
18 And said unto the children of Israel, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I brought up Israel out of Egypt, and delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all kingdoms, and of them that oppressed you:
19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.
2 Samuel 3:17-18 (KJV)
17 And Abner had communication with the elders of Israel, saying, Ye sought for David in times past to be king over you:
18 Now then do it: for the LORD hath spoken of David, saying, By the hand of my servant David I will save my people Israel out of the hand of the Philistines, and out of the hand of all their enemies.
2 Samuel 19:9 (KJV)
9 And all the people were at strife throughout all the tribes of Israel, saying, The king saved us out of the hand of our enemies, and he delivered us out of the hand of the Philistines; and now he is fled out of the land for Absalom.
2 Kings 19:19 (KJV)
19 Now therefore, O LORD our God, I beseech thee, save thou us out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD God, even thou only.
Nehemiah 9:27 (KJV)
27 Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
Psalm 34:6 (KJV)
6 This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.
Psalm 107:13 (KJV)
13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.
Jeremiah 30:7 (KJV)
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Jude 1:5 (KJV)
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jude 1:23 (KJV)
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Zechariah 3:1-2 (KJV)
1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Amos 4:11-12 (KJV)
11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
There are so many passages where God saves those in troublous times, not from seeing troublous times. I could list them all but the list would be very very long. If you wish to see them all study God's Holy Word.
Daniel 3:23-27 (KJV)
23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.
27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.
In the book of Daniel we see these three young men saved while in the fire, and the fire had no power upon them. Why not you may ask? Because of the faith they had in the living God. They stayed obediant to there God and he allowed no hurt to come unto them while in the fire.
Daniel 6:16-23 (KJV)
16 Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast him into the den of lions. Now the king spake and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee.
17 And a stone was brought, and laid upon the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet, and with the signet of his lords; that the purpose might not be changed concerning Daniel.
18 Then the king went to his palace, and passed the night fasting: neither were instruments of musick brought before him: and his sleep went from him.
19 Then the king arose very early in the morning, and went in haste unto the den of lions.
20 And when he came to the den, he cried with a lamentable voice unto Daniel: and the king spake and said to Daniel, O Daniel, servant of the living God, is thy God, whom thou servest continually, able to deliver thee from the lions?
21 Then said Daniel unto the king, O king, live for ever.
22 My God hath sent his angel, and hath shut the lions' mouths, that they have not hurt me: forasmuch as before him innocency was found in me; and also before thee, O king, have I done no hurt.
23 Then was the king exceeding glad for him, and commanded that they should take Daniel up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no manner of hurt was found upon him, because he believed in his God.
Did God save Daniel from being thrown into the lions den or did he save and keep him from harm while in the lions den?
Daniel 12:5-13 (KJV)
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Here in the book of Daniel he tells us that during this great tribulation many shall be purified, but the wicked shall do wickedly. But you may ask who are the many that will be purified? We we clearly see here it will not be the wicked (unbelievers). So who will it be? Well; let us study God's Holy Word to find out.
Zechariah 13:9 (KJV)
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
When you refine silver and try gold you are purifying it.
If we are refined or tried, we are proven whether we be pure before God or dross (impure) to be cast out.
So, we see the great tribulation is to try those professing to be Christians (saints) of God. To remove the dross for the silver/gold.
I realize most everyone here has been taught that the great tribulation is a time of judgement upon the wicked and that is when the seven plagues are poured out upon the wicked. But we must put away these teachings and study for ourselves to prove whether these things are so.
The great tribulation is a time when satan makes war with the saints (Christians).
Revelation 13:5-7 (KJV)
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
The seven plagues are not poured out until the end of the tribulation.
Revelation 18:4-8 (KJV)
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
We see here in Revelation that the plagues are poured out in ONE DAY! When the seventh vial of the seven plagues is poured out we see it is done. So we see the vials can not be poured out over a three and a half year period. because they all came in one day.
Revelation 16:17 (KJV)
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Also we do not see any mention of the Wrath being poured out till the seventh seal is opened.
Revelation 16:1 (KJV)
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
So many preachers have taken the passage in 1 GThessalonians completely out of context.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 (KJV)
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
What is wrath?
WRATH, n. [L.]
1. Violent anger; vehement exasperation; indignation; as the wrath of Achilles.
We were not give over to violence but peace, love, joy. We are to live peacably with all men.
James 1:19-22 (KJV)
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
We see so many passages were God saved his righteous followers while in tribulatoin (troublous times),while in the fire; not from the fire.
Exodus 14:30 (KJV)
30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore.
1 Samuel 4:3 (KJV)
3 And when the people were come into the camp, the elders of Israel said, Wherefore hath the LORD smitten us to day before the Philistines? Let us fetch the ark of the covenant of the LORD out of Shiloh unto us, that, when it cometh among us, it may save us out of the hand of our enemies.
1 Samuel 7:8 (KJV)
8 And the children of Israel said to Samuel, Cease not to cry unto the LORD our God for us, that he will save us out of the hand of the Philistines.
1 Samuel 9:16 (KJV)
16 To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him to be captain over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me.
1 Samuel 10:17-19 (KJV)
17 And Samuel called the people together unto the LORD to Mizpeh;
18 And said unto the children of Israel, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I brought up Israel out of Egypt, and delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all kingdoms, and of them that oppressed you:
19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.
2 Samuel 3:17-18 (KJV)
17 And Abner had communication with the elders of Israel, saying, Ye sought for David in times past to be king over you:
18 Now then do it: for the LORD hath spoken of David, saying, By the hand of my servant David I will save my people Israel out of the hand of the Philistines, and out of the hand of all their enemies.
2 Samuel 19:9 (KJV)
9 And all the people were at strife throughout all the tribes of Israel, saying, The king saved us out of the hand of our enemies, and he delivered us out of the hand of the Philistines; and now he is fled out of the land for Absalom.
2 Kings 19:19 (KJV)
19 Now therefore, O LORD our God, I beseech thee, save thou us out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD God, even thou only.
Nehemiah 9:27 (KJV)
27 Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
Psalm 34:6 (KJV)
6 This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.
Psalm 107:13 (KJV)
13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.
Jeremiah 30:7 (KJV)
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Jude 1:5 (KJV)
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jude 1:23 (KJV)
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Zechariah 3:1-2 (KJV)
1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Amos 4:11-12 (KJV)
11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
There are so many passages where God saves those in troublous times, not from seeing troublous times. I could list them all but the list would be very very long. If you wish to see them all study God's Holy Word.
Daniel 3:23-27 (KJV)
23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.
27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.
In the book of Daniel we see these three young men saved while in the fire, and the fire had no power upon them. Why not you may ask? Because of the faith they had in the living God. They stayed obediant to there God and he allowed no hurt to come unto them while in the fire.
Daniel 6:16-23 (KJV)
16 Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast him into the den of lions. Now the king spake and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee.
17 And a stone was brought, and laid upon the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet, and with the signet of his lords; that the purpose might not be changed concerning Daniel.
18 Then the king went to his palace, and passed the night fasting: neither were instruments of musick brought before him: and his sleep went from him.
19 Then the king arose very early in the morning, and went in haste unto the den of lions.
20 And when he came to the den, he cried with a lamentable voice unto Daniel: and the king spake and said to Daniel, O Daniel, servant of the living God, is thy God, whom thou servest continually, able to deliver thee from the lions?
21 Then said Daniel unto the king, O king, live for ever.
22 My God hath sent his angel, and hath shut the lions' mouths, that they have not hurt me: forasmuch as before him innocency was found in me; and also before thee, O king, have I done no hurt.
23 Then was the king exceeding glad for him, and commanded that they should take Daniel up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no manner of hurt was found upon him, because he believed in his God.
Did God save Daniel from being thrown into the lions den or did he save and keep him from harm while in the lions den?
Daniel 12:5-13 (KJV)
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Here in the book of Daniel he tells us that during this great tribulation many shall be purified, but the wicked shall do wickedly. But you may ask who are the many that will be purified? We we clearly see here it will not be the wicked (unbelievers). So who will it be? Well; let us study God's Holy Word to find out.
Zechariah 13:9 (KJV)
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
When you refine silver and try gold you are purifying it.
If we are refined or tried, we are proven whether we be pure before God or dross (impure) to be cast out.
So, we see the great tribulation is to try those professing to be Christians (saints) of God. To remove the dross for the silver/gold.
I realize most everyone here has been taught that the great tribulation is a time of judgement upon the wicked and that is when the seven plagues are poured out upon the wicked. But we must put away these teachings and study for ourselves to prove whether these things are so.
The great tribulation is a time when satan makes war with the saints (Christians).
Revelation 13:5-7 (KJV)
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
The seven plagues are not poured out until the end of the tribulation.
Revelation 18:4-8 (KJV)
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
We see here in Revelation that the plagues are poured out in ONE DAY! When the seventh vial of the seven plagues is poured out we see it is done. So we see the vials can not be poured out over a three and a half year period. because they all came in one day.
Revelation 16:17 (KJV)
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Also we do not see any mention of the Wrath being poured out till the seventh seal is opened.
Revelation 16:1 (KJV)
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
So many preachers have taken the passage in 1 GThessalonians completely out of context.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 (KJV)
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
What is wrath?
WRATH, n. [L.]
1. Violent anger; vehement exasperation; indignation; as the wrath of Achilles.
We were not give over to violence but peace, love, joy. We are to live peacably with all men.
James 1:19-22 (KJV)
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.