A pre-tribulation coming?

[peterT]

You made a great point about the days of Noah (in red), that all the unbelievers were happy just before they were swept away... that is really telling, as it will be just like those days.

Thanks for your sharing your wisdom

It’s funny how you use the days of Noah to justify a pre-tribulation coming.

When Jesus said in Matt24 Immediately after the tribulation then appears the sign of the Son of man, and it shall be like the days of Noah, one shall be taken, and the other left.

You use the days of Noah for a pre-trib coming, BUT Jesus used the story of Noah to say Immediately after the tribulation the Son of man comes.


29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days.
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

 

[peterT]

You've missed a lot of scriptures and no matter what I throw your way you will not believe any of it but your own opinion.

Jesus often used Jewish customs to communicate future events, particularly the ancient Jewish weddings.

"When the bridegroom's father deemed the wedding chamber ready, the father would tell the bridegroom that all was ready and to get His bride. The bridegroom would abduct his bride secretly, like a thief at night and take her to the wedding chamber. As the bridegroom approached the bride's home, he would shout and blow the shofar (ram's horn trumpet) so that she had some warning to gather her belongings to take into the wedding chamber. The bridegroom and his friends would come into the bride's house and get the bride and her bridesmaids"

Link --> End Times | Rapture & Jewish Wedding

Also look at the 7 feasts, as 4 have been fulfilled, the next is Feast of trumpets.




No one has raised me with the pre-tribulation doctrine (in fact, many churches don't even teach the end times as they prefer to focus on positive teachings). I use discernment when even listening to teachers to be sure all matches up with scripture and I'm 1000% sure that Christ returns for His sheep, which will be the end of the church age. You're completely disregarding what the tribulation is actually for... you're trying to put the church in it, when we are no longer needed as God clearly focuses on the unbelievers & Israel during this time... the last call to repentance for them.

We know that Satan only pours out his wrath in the last 3.5 years, as it's 7 year trib, so that would place the rapture sometime before the 7 years or at the half way point, as the first half will be peaceful not wrath. Since no one knows the day or hour, it could not happen at the end of the 7 years as it would be obvious.

Since you've so much disbelief, maybe He will keep you here since He says to pray that you be worthy to escape such things. If a person has disbelief in God's promises and keeps wanting to be here then maybe you just will be here.

Where does it say it’s a 7 year tribulation?

Jesus said when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet for then shall be great tribulation.

And Daniel said the abomination of desolation is in the middle of the 7years/week, so great tribulation is 3 ½ years NOT seven

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
21 For then shall be great tribulation.


Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

This is how we get the seven years, and it’s in the middle of that week/seven years Jesus said then shall be great tribulation.

And what’s not positive about bible teaching? “Jesus is the word” and all of the Bible including Bible prophesy is positive because it has a happy ending and, it’s all a part of the Bible, and all about Jesus and his plan for us..

Try and stick to scripture if you can when teaching and stay away from teaching babble

 

[BananaPie]

So what is the "Tribulation, the great tribulation" if it is not God's wrath on the Earth? It is certainly NOT human caused, and it is hardly just the normal natural occurrences.

Well, according to the famous words in red: Lord Jesus said,

"Then THEY [those who hate Jesus] will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name" (Matthew 24:9).

"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will" (Matthew 24:21).

Similarly, Mark quotes the Lord Jesus:

"And you shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved and you shall be hated. ...For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will." (Mark 13)

In conclusion, the Great Tribulation is NOT cause by God; on the contrary, the Great Tribulation is the persecution of Christians by those hating God. In other words, the Great Tribulation is, literally, hunting season on anybody professing to be Christian. As a consequence, the Wrath of God is the judgement of God passed upon all those in disobedience towards God: evil doers and haters of God who persecuted the saints.

I hope the words of our Lord Jesus Christ are meaningful to you and carved upon your heart, "for faithful is Him Who calls us."

 

[peterT]

Amen to all you have said here. I remembered that scripture about praying that we be worthy to escape such things. This is a warning of awful days to come, days that God is not wishing upon us. We are not sheep being led to slaughter.

You made a great point about the days of Noah (in red), that all the unbelievers were happy just before they were swept away... that is really telling, as it will be just like those days.

Thanks for your sharing your wisdom

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things

These are the things that Jesus said that you should pray that ye may be accounted worthy to escape, ”hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares” Not that you should escape the day, but the wickedness in your heart.

God gave his only begotten son as the lamb to the slaughter, and if he can do it to his only begotten son he can do it to you/us, if we are willing.

A funny comment, you would not want to say it to the children of Israel that spent 400 years as slaves building the pyramids their children and their children’s children, 400 years of bondage and slavery

You would not want to say it to Stephen, as they gnashed on him with their teeth and stoned him to death.

And you would not want to say it the rest of the disciples who all died a die horrible deaths.

Unlike you the apostle Paul counted his life NOT dear unto himself.

Acts 20:24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

And them in Rv12 and they loved not their lives unto the death.

It’s not your life, you belong to God to do as he see fit for a testimony, if you are willing.

 

[peterT]

Since you've so much disbelief, maybe He will keep you here since He says to pray that you be worthy to escape such things. If a person has disbelief in God's promises and keeps wanting to be here then maybe you just will be here.

And that’s a funny statement but no scripture again nothing in the bible about that. Here is something in the same vein, the other end of the stick, but it HAS scripture.

Matt13:20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

 

[webchatter]

I agree on one thing with Peter T ,(4 posts above), that Dan9:27 means that 3 1/2 yrs into the tribulation.... that the antichrist stops sacrifice & desolates the temple even until the consummation. However it does not say the tribulation ends there. Now is when you don't know the hour or the dayof the rapture, after this event. The tribulation is 7 years, broken into 2 halves throughout the Bible.Dan7:25-"And He shall speak great words against the Most High... a time, and times, and the dividing of time". There are many examples.Moses & Elias torment the unsaved with their preaching for 3 1/2 yrs during the first half of the tribulation, & i believe they are raptured with the rest of us & the dead in Christ when Jesus APPEARS ON A CLOUD AT THE 1ST REAPING, which is the rapture & the 2nd coming. Matt.24: describes the 1st half, 3 1/2 yrs of the tribulation in verse 29 where it says"Immediately after the tribulation of those days", then in verse 30 "....they shall see the Son of Man comingin the clouds.."31=trumpet & "they shall gathertogether his elect from the four winds..." Rev.1:7="Behold He cometh with the clouds..." Rev 14:14-"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle". 15-"...the time is come for thee to reap: for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16-..."and the earth was reaped" this is the rapture & the 1st reaping.
The 2nd reaping is in Rev.14:19 -And the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God". From then on Rev. speaks of God's wrath "the 7 last plagues in 15:1, & 15:7 is the golden vials & so forth.
It is not until Rev .19 that Armageddon begins. So, rapture is Rev.14;14 & chptrs 15, 16, 17, & 18 are the last 3 1/2yrs of the trib=God's wrath which we we promised in Scripture not to endure.
Rev 19:11 is Armageddon, which is not the 2nd coming because Jesus is not on a cloud, He is on a horse making war. "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse;and he that sat upon him was called faithful and true, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war".
I don't see Scripture which says the rapture or gathering together in the clouds to meet Jesus is at Armageddon.
Some of the Scripture is written for those living in the trib who missed the rapture. Mat.24 works for the midtribber. I don't see Scripture saying the 2nd coming is at Armageddon or during the war. Armageddon is not during the trib, Armageddon is the war which ends the trib & God's wrath of famine & plagues etc. Since we are promised not to endure God's wrath we won't be raptured After God's wrath.
We will not be raptured when we feel a war approaches.(Armageddon) 1 Thess5:3-' For when they shall say, "Peace & safety" then sudden destruction cometh upon them,as travail upon a woman with child;and they shall not escape.4-"But ye brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief".
1 Corin.15:23-26= 4 verses which I think puts all of these things into pesrpective for us.(Rapture,Armageddon,Millenium or 1000 yr reign of Christ, & judgement day.
1 Corin.15:23-"But every man in his own order, Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. (rapture)
24="Then cometh the end,when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father:when he shall have put down all rule and authority and power. (Armageddon).
25="For He must reign,tilhe hathput all enemies under His feet. (Millenium)
26-"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death"- (judgement day)
I commend anyone for taking on the monumental task of trying to sort out end time prophecy & have no intention of offending anyone or their views. I just cannot see that Scripture indicates the 2nd Coming & rapture is on a horse to make war.
Someone asked in this thread if there were any signs or something to indicate this rapture might happen in our life time. In my opinion there is only 1 thing that should happen before the trib starts & that is the war of Ezekial 38-39 between communist or socialist countries of eastern Europe & Israel. ( a lot of people think Russia would be one).This would include some muslim nations also.After this war & within 3 1/2 yrs of it, the antichrist signs a 7 yr peace agreement with Israel & whoever invaded them or started war with them. Scary thing is, around 1982 Russia supplied arms to Lebanon, who invaded Israel via the PLO.(Palestine Liberation Organization). The King of Spain intervened in discussions with both & they signed a 7 year peace agreement. The representatives of the PLO & Israel, along with the King of Spain, had their picture holding the contract on the news & in all the newspapers. What was even wierder, was that the king of Spain inherited a royalty title that was handed down to him as his mother's descendant. His royal title was, "King of Bethlehem". God bless.

 

[WolfInOxHide]

One 2600 year old chapter to shoot down all of pop-christianity, including pre-trib escape-ture.

Ezekiel 13 til I'm blue in the face.

1 And the word of YHWH came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of YHWH;
3 Thus saith YHWH Elohim; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of YHWH.
6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, YHWH saith: and YHWH hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, YHWH saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
8 Therefore thus saith YHWH Elohim; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith YHWH Elohim.
9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am YHWH Elohim.
10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.
12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?
13 Therefore thus saith YHWH Elohim; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.
14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am YHWH Elohim.
15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;
16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith YHWH Elohim.
17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18 And say, Thus saith YHWH Elohim; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith YHWH Elohim; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am YHWH Elohim.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am YHWH Elohim.


Do you think the real "Israel" is the one you see on TV?
No, Israel is everyone who struggles with God.
Gentiles are people that just don't think about Him.


And all the men hid inside their spiritual governments and cried "spiritual government! get me into this rapture! the hell-god is coming! and he's gonna massacre anything that's left!"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One 2600 year old chapter to shoot down all of pop-christianity, including pre-trib escape-ture.

Ezekiel 13 til I'm blue in the face.

1 And the word of YHWH came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of YHWH;
3 Thus saith YHWH Elohim; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of YHWH.
6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, YHWH saith: and YHWH hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, YHWH saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
8 Therefore thus saith YHWH Elohim; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith YHWH Elohim.
9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am YHWH Elohim.
10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.
12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?
13 Therefore thus saith YHWH Elohim; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.
14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am YHWH Elohim.
15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;
16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith YHWH Elohim.
17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18 And say, Thus saith YHWH Elohim; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith YHWH Elohim; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am YHWH Elohim.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am YHWH Elohim.


Do you think the real "Israel" is the one you see on TV?
No, Israel is everyone who struggles with God.
Gentiles are people that just don't think about Him.


And all the men hid inside their spiritual governments and cried "spiritual government! get me into this rapture! the hell-god is coming! and he's gonna massacre anything that's left!"

Not saying which side I am on, there is good reasonable support for all sides.

However, What you see as proof in weak in nature. Not to mention, who you call Isreal vs gentile.

Who is hated for the gospel. but beloved for the promises in romans 11? Those who struggle and obey God?

Who does paul tell us in the same chapter will be saved, when the times of the gentile has been fulfilled?

Spiritually, yes, Israel is saved, gentile are unsaved.

Physically however, God still has a plan for Israel. Not because of who they are, but because They will repent, when he opens their eyes to truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In conclusion, the Great Tribulation is NOT cause by God; on the contrary, the Great Tribulation is the persecution of Christians by those hating God. In other words, the Great Tribulation is, literally, hunting season on anybody professing to be Christian. As a consequence, the Wrath of God is the judgement of God passed upon all those in disobedience towards God: evil doers and haters of God who persecuted the saints.

I hope the words of our Lord Jesus Christ are meaningful to you and carved upon your heart, "for faithful is Him Who calls us."

I would disagree. Although their will be great persecution against those who are Gods children. The great tribulation is not this alone. in Fact Jesus makes it clear. it is worldwide tribulation greater than has ever occured on earth. And if he did not come back. no flesh would survive. If it was just against Christians, there would be no possibility of all flesh perishing in this great period of distress.

OT prophesy and Revelations speaks of a great tribulation against the whole world. And will I agree it is not all done by God, God does also do things.


Tribulation is this.

Seals (not just against Christians but against the world)

1. Great conqueror. A man is given permission by God to conquer the world. (world leader)
2. Peace removed. Peace is removed from the world. which means all of the world and those who live in it are exposed to severe evil, and there is no peace
3. Great famine. Food is scarce, as a worldwide famine effects many. many will die of severe starvation.
4. 1/4 of the earth killed by war and starvation. So severe, animals kill humans to eat because there is no food (beasts of the earth)
5. Martyrs. Here is the first and only seal which has anything to do with persecution against Christians. God allows it until all who have been predetermined to die in Gods name have died.
6. Catastrophic Natural disasters. whether you believe it is cosmic in nature, or could be any natural disaster, God says these events will be so sever the kings of the earth will try to hide in caves, and under rocks. and beg them to fall and kill them so they will not have to suffer the wrath of God

(this is the only part of the seal judgments which is performed by God and is part of his wrath, all the rest are done by mankind, as god removes his protective hand and allows evil to run rampant. ever wanted to see a world where god does not control, or restrain evil? this will be it.)

7. Noise, thunders and lightening, and a great earthquake (most likely worldwide in scope.

Trumpets

1. 1/3 of all plant life on earth destroyed by fire.
2. 1/3 of sea life killed, and 1/3 of ships traveling the high seas destroyed
3 1/3 of all freshwater made poisonous, and many men die drinking its waters.
4. Something darkens the night sky, which causes 1/3 of the day to become dark (ever heard of nuclear winter?) many will die as the earths temperature drops. which will cause many hardships.

the first WOE is offered.


13 And I looked, and I heard an angel[b] flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, “Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!”

5. first woe - Extreme pain and suffering on those who are not Gods. 5 months they will suffer, they will try to die, but be unable to (suicide is impossible)
6.- 1/3 mankind killed.
7. - Return of Christ. All flesh who are not his will be killed. The birds will feed on their flesh for along time, there will be so many dead.

And this is not even all. The earthquake in the great city where the two prophets are killed then ressurected (jerusalem) which kills thousands, and cause those who see it to repent and turn to God.

As you can see. This tribulation is worldwide. Not just against Gods people, but all mankind. And no one will be safe from it (well except the woman, who is protected by God)

 

[WolfInOxHide]

The next chapter, 14


4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith YHWH Elohim; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I YHWH will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.


e-g, not picking back, but I'd love for anyone else to see this...

I don't see very much of the above mentioned prophets whether true or false from TV Israel, though I see a lot of them, true or false, in christianity. Actually, a far superior amount than other religons.
Consider for a moment that...

Israel is anyone who struggles with God, and Judah is modern christianity.
If you try reading the sons of Israel story as such, you may be suprised to also find Joseph as Yeshua, Benjamin as the remnant, Simeon as modern pharasaic judaism, and Reuben as "non-divinty" religions who embrace Jesus as an option but don't think He came out of the pit alive. Reuben laid with the father's wife.
We are scattered among all nations tongues and tribes.
If you investigate it, you have nothing to lose and can always go back. And the thing you have to gain is to know that you are one of God's chosen people instead of just definitively a Christian, plus reading the last 2000 years of history rolled up in the Joseph/Pharoah scene! With Pharaoh demonstrating the way Jesus has been enslaved yet fruitful for 2000 years. In the end, not only does Joseph save and reconcile his people, but everyone else in the known world at that time.



I know Buddhists, "jews", and muslims who walk the walk better than us, they just don't know much about Jesus yet, or who they are.
I think one should take as much caution in believing TV Israel is authentic as they would thinking TV christianity is authentic. You know, we are not depicted as we are. By the media our christian churches are tied to fake "healing concerts" and "god hates fags" the same way TV Israel is tied to that miracle wall and the enemy on their property. Isn't it so likely?


Peace.

 

[WolfInOxHide]

Seals a'crackin?



Sun moon and stars dream, Israel interprets Revelation of Yeshua:

"10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
11 And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying"

"12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The next chapter, 14


4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith YHWH Elohim; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I YHWH will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.


e-g, not picking back, but I'd love for anyone else to see this...

I don't see very much of the above mentioned prophets whether true or false from TV Israel, though I see a lot of them, true or false, in christianity. Actually, a far superior amount than other religons.
Consider for a moment that...

Israel is anyone who struggles with God, and Judah is modern christianity.
If you try reading the sons of Israel story as such, you may be suprised to also find Joseph as Yeshua, Benjamin as the remnant, Simeon as modern pharasaic judaism, and Reuben as "non-divinty" religions who embrace Jesus as an option but don't think He came out of the pit alive. Reuben laid with the father's wife.
We are scattered among all nations tongues and tribes.
If you investigate it, you have nothing to lose and can always go back. And the thing you have to gain is to know that you are one of God's chosen people instead of just definitively a Christian, plus reading the last 2000 years of history rolled up in the Joseph/Pharoah scene! With Pharaoh demonstrating the way Jesus has been enslaved yet fruitful for 2000 years. In the end, not only does Joseph save and reconcile his people, but everyone else in the known world at that time.



I know Buddhists, "jews", and muslims who walk the walk better than us, they just don't know much about Jesus yet, or who they are.
I think one should take as much caution in believing TV Israel is authentic as they would thinking TV christianity is authentic. You know, we are not depicted as we are. By the media our christian churches are tied to fake "healing concerts" and "god hates fags" the same way TV Israel is tied to that miracle wall and the enemy on their property. Isn't it so likely?


Peace.

I understand what your saying. I also understand I am spiritual isreal, or a child of the promise (in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed0

my point is salvation is not the issue. Gentiles were saved before their was isreal, while their was isreal, and after isreal was destroyed in 70 AD. and they will always be saved, it has NEVER been about salvation.

My point i prophesy, Prophesy is just as important as who is saved and who is not. If God says something is going to happen. It happens. This is a mighty powerful tool used By God which brings many to him, and also exposes all false Gods, as they can not prophesy.

1. God prophesied the northern kingdom would rebel and be taken from her land, fulfilled by Syria
2. God prophesied, if the southern kingdom (Judah) did not repent, it to would be taken - fulfilled Babylon
3. God prophesied that even after being allowed to return to her land, they would not again live in peace in that land, nor be soverign rulers of her own land because she was still in rebellion. Not only this, her rebellion would be so severe, that God once again would destroy her city, her sanctuary, and scatter them all over the world. - ffulfilled 70 AD
4. God prophesied that there would be 4 gentile kingdoms (Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece and Rome, and that during this "age or time of the gentile". Jerusalem will either be in bondage to these kingdoms, or destroyed and in ruins. Yet after thise age, God would destroy the gentile kingdom by himself, and restore Jerusalem to her former glory. - As of yet unfulfilled, or not yet completed

5. God said at this time (the age of the gentile being complete) he will bring back those he scattered for her sin, he will give life to the "dry bones", he will restore completely the northern and southern kingdoms of Israel, make them one nation again, and he will be their king (all of this dependent on THEIR REPENTANCE, THERE ADDITION OF THEIR SIN, AND THE SIN OF THEIR FATHERS, AND THEIR CALLING OUT ON HIM AND FREELY RECEIVING THE MESSIAH THEY KILLED. and thus as Paul said in rom 11, All Isreal will be saved.

I agree 100 % we have to get off this tv Christianity, which does more damage than good. But it is just as dangerous to say Gods prophesies will not come true. If God can;t keep his promise to those who are of the flesh, what is to stop him from keeping his promise to those who are of the spirit (US)?

 

[WolfInOxHide]

I agree 100 % we have to get off this tv Christianity, which does more damage than good. But it is just as dangerous to say Gods prophesies will not come true. If God can;t keep his promise to those who are of the flesh, what is to stop him from keeping his promise to those who are of the spirit (US)?

I should have also said that while I don't believe in TV Israel as being true Israel, I do believe you can watch the news and see what's going on spiritually or soon to happen spiritually, by observing the conditions of the TV versions. Israel representing spiritual Israel, Egypt representing slavery, Syria representing materialism, and Babylon (Iraq) representing confusion. All of them spiritually surrounding the "us" version of Israel, no matter where we are in the world. The renewed covenant spiritual representations that were literal in original covenant.

I think I agree mostly with all your points, except that I believe all the names given represent spiritual borders that are not tied to the physical ones so much. Once the story/prophecy of Joseph is over, you step out of it, and can step into the same story/prophecy again, or parts of it, in other stories. They repeat themselves. For example Isaac also represented Yeshua in parts of his story, Rebekah being the virgin chosen because she not only gave water to the master's messenger, but also to his "10" camels, who kneel beside the well. So, where the story comes to an end with Joseph's restoration, you can either assume that maybe it continues with the millennium, or steps back into it at another place, I don't know. I am yet to study the remainder of the story with Joseph's children etc. the same way as the first to be honest.

Sorry, getting off topic now, you get the last word
Have a good one.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I should have also said that while I don't believe in TV Israel as being true Israel, I do believe you can watch the news and see what's going on spiritually or soon to happen spiritually, by observing the conditions of the TV versions. Israel representing spiritual Israel, Egypt representing slavery, Syria representing materialism, and Babylon (Iraq) representing confusion. All of them spiritually surrounding the "us" version of Israel, no matter where we are in the world. The renewed covenant spiritual representations that were literal in original covenant.

well yeah I agree. we can see this. but it does not mean we should spiritualize prophesy and take what God said is going to physically happen and make it just symbols. It might work for some people. But I do not even see why we would have to do this. it would not being me closer to God. make me believe he is the real god any more (or make anyone believe he is God for that matter) and just brings about confusion. this is the danger of trying to spiritualise prophesy, it brings no one to God, it does nothing to prove God is God (unlike literal fulfillment) and causes nothing but debate on spiritual things, which actually hurts us more than it helps us.

(just my opinion is all. nothing judgmental in what I just said, i hope you see this)

I think I agree mostly with all your points, except that I believe all the names given represent spiritual borders that are not tied to the physical ones so much. Once the story/prophecy of Joseph is over, you step out of it, and can step into the same story/prophecy again, or parts of it, in other stories. They repeat themselves. For example Isaac also represented Yeshua in parts of his story, Rebekah being the virgin chosen because she not only gave water to the master's messenger, but also to his "10" camels, who kneel beside the well. So, where the story comes to an end with Joseph's restoration, you can either assume that maybe it continues with the millennium, or steps back into it at another place, I don't know. I am yet to study the remainder of the story with Joseph's children etc. the same way as the first to be honest.

Sorry, getting off topic now, you get the last word
Have a good one.

lol. Well since I still believe it is yet future, I think, as in the past fulfillment of prophesy, no one will actually know how it unfolds until it happens. all we can do is speculate until it is done. which is why I love to discuss this stuff. I always pray it never takes us away from what really matters, which is the gospel of christ. And I think you will agree with that!

 

[GRA]

I don't see Scripture which says the rapture or gathering together in the clouds to meet Jesus is at Armageddon.

I don't see Scripture saying the 2nd coming is at Armageddon or during the war. Armageddon is not during the trib, Armageddon is the war which ends the trib & God's wrath of famine & plagues etc. Since we are promised not to endure God's wrath we won't be raptured After God's wrath.

I commend anyone for taking on the monumental task of trying to sort out end time prophecy & have no intention of offending anyone or their views. I just cannot see that Scripture indicates the 2nd Coming & rapture is on a horse to make war.

If you should be so inclined --- check out the 3 'study' threads in my signature...

"I don't claim [the charts] to be perfect (yet ) - but, I am working on it..."

"Just might help answer some questions..."



.

 

[Powemm]

The first shall be last and the last shall be first...
When we die to ourselves "who we have put first , ahead of Christ , the old man ( flesh) will pass away... for the spirit over rides the flesh when we invite Jesus in as our Lord and savior to come and reign in us as Lord and master... It is Christ who we put last... When we die in our flesh it is He who is now living in and out through us ..... the last shall be first (Jesus) We are able to look into our own souls and see the tomb is now empty ... The ark of Gods covenant is in us... His covenant to each and every one of us.... is as he has promised...

 

[GRA]

Try and stick to scripture if you can when teaching and stay away from teaching babble

Please don't say stuff like this. It doesn't really help.

"I dare say that most Christians are not in error on purpose."

People are naturally inclined to believe that they "have it right" - or, otherwise, they would "change it" to what they thought "was right" - and then, they would "have it right" once again... ("see?")

We continually 'update' and 'upgrade' what we believe as we are confronted with ideas that "don't match" what we "currently believe"... (that is, if we are "open-minded" enough to consider them)

Very few of us (if any) "have it all figured out"...

"I know I don't - but, I am working on it..."

Each and every one of us, no doubt, is in error about something...

If you don't think so - please re-read the previous statement over and over until you change your mind -- before proceeding...

"nobody is perfect"

When you believe your brother or sister in Christ to be "off" (where Biblical truth is concerned) - don't "belittle" them for "meaning well" - instead, show them a "loving concern" that is fit for edification. Try to treat them as you would want to be treated ("Sound kinda familiar?") when you are wrong - and, someone is trying to get you to "see the light"...

"The idea is not to prove them wrong - but rather, it is to help them see the truth..."

And, our [apparent] attitude reflects which of these they believe we are trying to accomplish.

Yes - we all "slip" every now and then. We are human. It happens.

But, a sufficient amount of it will gain you a "reputation"...

By all means - make your case. Just remember that "good and polite manners" and a "gentle and kind regard" goes a long way...

Do not underestimate how important it is to remember that human nature plays a very big part in situations such as this - and that someone's [apparent] attitude will "make all of the difference in the world"...


(Please also understand that this post is not attempting to address certain "blatant heresy" issues. At times, there are very good exceptions to some rules. But, that is not what this post is about.)



.

 

[peterT]

Please don't say stuff like this. It doesn't really help.


.

Hay, I didn’t call him a viper

I didn’t call him a serpent

I didn’t call him a chilled of the devil

I didn’t call him stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears

I didn’t make a whip and whip him out of the temple.

I just said stop teaching babble

Does this help