"a thousand" literal or symbolic?
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O
Rev. 20:2-7. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a THOUSAND YEARS, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more till the THOUSAND YEARS should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a THOUSAND YEARS. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the THOUSAND YEARS were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a THOUSAND YEARS. And when the THOUSAND YEARS are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.
Now we know the above will come after the tribulation period. We know He tells us six times that it will be for a thousand years. Why is it so hard to just believe him.? Would we believe it if God would have said five hundred years.?
Now we know the above will come after the tribulation period. We know He tells us six times that it will be for a thousand years. Why is it so hard to just believe him.? Would we believe it if God would have said five hundred years.?
A
i still dont see how either can be literal when i cant even fathom what it was in genesis before
God made things, not can i see how a pit could hold a spirit, or was it a real literal dragon, or was it a literal chain, or was it a literal serpant....etc
Also i see that you gave literal numbers...was your point that in all prophecy all time periods given
are literal by biblical precedent?
God made things, not can i see how a pit could hold a spirit, or was it a real literal dragon, or was it a literal chain, or was it a literal serpant....etc
Also i see that you gave literal numbers...was your point that in all prophecy all time periods given
are literal by biblical precedent?
A
You would first have to see me teach that before saying im so intent
So far all i said was that the verse was not literal...as someone said
Anyway im sitting here looking at the word thousand...wondering if John being a Jew
may have used the word in a sense like ps 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
thousand according to strongs 5507 chilias= uncertian affinity...makes me ponder.
So far all i said was that the verse was not literal...as someone said
Anyway im sitting here looking at the word thousand...wondering if John being a Jew
may have used the word in a sense like ps 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
thousand according to strongs 5507 chilias= uncertian affinity...makes me ponder.
T
The Gr. word for one thouseand is as you state, "chilias'. The word used for thousand throughout Rev 20 is also as you state, "chilioi," the indefinite plural of "chilias." So the so-called Millennium of Rev 20 could indeed be one thousand years, but it could also be a figurative picture of the whole Christian era.
Nevertheless, Millennialists make a definite doctrine out of that indefinite plural and fight to the death against any who disagree. Now I couldn't care less about the a-mill or pre-mill positions and would go to war over neither, but think it deplorable that the defenders of pre-mill eschatology are too close-minded to accept the possibility that they just might be wrong.
Nevertheless, Millennialists make a definite doctrine out of that indefinite plural and fight to the death against any who disagree. Now I couldn't care less about the a-mill or pre-mill positions and would go to war over neither, but think it deplorable that the defenders of pre-mill eschatology are too close-minded to accept the possibility that they just might be wrong.
I think comparing the deep in Genesis 1:2 and the Abyss in Revelation 20:1 is like trying to compare apples to oranges. In Genesis the word "tehôm" H8415 is widely used to describe a vast sea of water or water under the crust of the earth and is often used through-out the OT in this way. It can be used as the place of the dead, but in Genesis 1 isn't talking about dead things, its talking about creation, so here context must rule. In Revelation, the word in question is best translated "abyss" IMO, the place of the dead, which is a spiritual realm as opposed to the physical realm in Genesis. To interpret this as "deep or bottomless" is to miss the point, what God is doing is limiting Satan's power, so that the gospel can be preached and go out among the nations. Satan was defeated by Christ, as depicted in Luke 10:18 and Isaiah 14:12-2, and now the gates of hades can not prevail against the church!
"tehôm"
1) deep, depths, deep places, abyss, the deep, sea 1a) deep (of subterranean waters) 1b) deep, sea, abysses (of sea) 1c) primeval ocean, deep 1d) deep, depth (of river) 1e) abyss, Sheol
Isaiah 14:12-21
The Fall of Lucifer
12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18 “All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
(The nations around Jerusalem gloated and mocked Jerusalem over her destruction, for Jerusalem was prideful and arrogant, and thought God would come to her aid, but He did not. Jerusalem's glory was lost due to her apostasy and her rejection of her true King, the messiah.)
19 But you are cast out of your grave (a depiction of lost honor)
Like an abominable branch, (unbelieving Jews where cut off as depicted in the cultivated olive tree in Romans 11)
Like the garment of those who are slain, (Just as the religious zealots of Israel killed the prophets, our Lord, and Christians they too will be brought down and slain).
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial, (those who stayed in Jerusalem in 70AD and died, their corpses where left without a proper burial, the birds of the air and beast of the field feasted upon them.)
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people. (Jewish Zealots hated the Prophets, Jesus and the Christians and where the ones mainly behind the persecutions and encouraged the Romans to join them. But after a while even the Roman's despised Jerusalem for their prideful arrogance.)
The brood of evildoers shall never be named. (pharisees and scribes, under the influence of Satan Matt.23 , shall never receive a new name and are blotted out of the book of life) Matt.23:33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
21 Prepare slaughter for his children (70AD)
Because of the iniquity of their fathers, "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt." Matt. verse 32 (Matt.23:31-35)
Lest they rise up and possess the land, (the land was never an uncondition promise, the promise to Abraham's seed are, the Spiritual SEED, who are in Jesus Christ).
And fill the face of the world with cities.” (never again will Jerusalem/Israel be a focal point of God's economy - only bad and faulty eschatology)
Ok, I'm done. May God's peace and love indwell you all.
"tehôm"
1) deep, depths, deep places, abyss, the deep, sea 1a) deep (of subterranean waters) 1b) deep, sea, abysses (of sea) 1c) primeval ocean, deep 1d) deep, depth (of river) 1e) abyss, Sheol
Isaiah 14:12-21
The Fall of Lucifer
12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18 “All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
(The nations around Jerusalem gloated and mocked Jerusalem over her destruction, for Jerusalem was prideful and arrogant, and thought God would come to her aid, but He did not. Jerusalem's glory was lost due to her apostasy and her rejection of her true King, the messiah.)
19 But you are cast out of your grave (a depiction of lost honor)
Like an abominable branch, (unbelieving Jews where cut off as depicted in the cultivated olive tree in Romans 11)
Like the garment of those who are slain, (Just as the religious zealots of Israel killed the prophets, our Lord, and Christians they too will be brought down and slain).
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial, (those who stayed in Jerusalem in 70AD and died, their corpses where left without a proper burial, the birds of the air and beast of the field feasted upon them.)
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people. (Jewish Zealots hated the Prophets, Jesus and the Christians and where the ones mainly behind the persecutions and encouraged the Romans to join them. But after a while even the Roman's despised Jerusalem for their prideful arrogance.)
The brood of evildoers shall never be named. (pharisees and scribes, under the influence of Satan Matt.23 , shall never receive a new name and are blotted out of the book of life) Matt.23:33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
21 Prepare slaughter for his children (70AD)
Because of the iniquity of their fathers, "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt." Matt. verse 32 (Matt.23:31-35)
Lest they rise up and possess the land, (the land was never an uncondition promise, the promise to Abraham's seed are, the Spiritual SEED, who are in Jesus Christ).
And fill the face of the world with cities.” (never again will Jerusalem/Israel be a focal point of God's economy - only bad and faulty eschatology)
Ok, I'm done. May God's peace and love indwell you all.
Thousand years, literal and symbolic. "Divide" the word.
Earth, heavens, deep.
Never in ancient thinking did "earth" mean the yet unrealized spherical planet. From genesis to revelation, It means the ground that we stand on.
Physically, with the body, and spiritually with the mind. Divide.
Your garden, or your field, is your part of this "earth."
Sea, a place with nowhere to stand. Physically with the body requires a "ship." Spiritually with the mind requires a "ship." Divide the word.
The deep, not the ocean. The deep is the blank, void, light-less and starless night sky. Never ending darkness.
Paint the picture:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
6 "days" to create physical man.
6 "thousand years" to create spiritual man.
Divide.
~2012AD = ~6012
And on the 7th "day": rest.
If that day should tarry, wait for it.
Peace.
Earth, heavens, deep.
Never in ancient thinking did "earth" mean the yet unrealized spherical planet. From genesis to revelation, It means the ground that we stand on.
Physically, with the body, and spiritually with the mind. Divide.
Your garden, or your field, is your part of this "earth."
Sea, a place with nowhere to stand. Physically with the body requires a "ship." Spiritually with the mind requires a "ship." Divide the word.
The deep, not the ocean. The deep is the blank, void, light-less and starless night sky. Never ending darkness.
Paint the picture:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
6 "days" to create physical man.
6 "thousand years" to create spiritual man.
Divide.
~2012AD = ~6012
And on the 7th "day": rest.
If that day should tarry, wait for it.
Peace.
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E
The problem is in your interpretation.
Daniel 9 already infers a gap. Messiah was cutt off AFTER 69 weeks, the city did not get destroyed for some 4 years later, which is well past the final one week period if you make the 70th week follow immediatly after the 69th week.
If there is already a 40 year gap, it is not a stretch to make it a few thousand year, or even longer than that
E
Jesus was talking about the end of the age, and his return to earth in matt 24. He did not mention it was the end of the earth. Revelations tells us about this, when he destroys this heaven and earth and makes a new one, Which happens following the 1000 years, and the final release of satan and final battle.
This is where alot of people differ, where does the 1000 come into play, and what precedes it.
This is where alot of people differ, where does the 1000 come into play, and what precedes it.
A
read the end of verse 27:Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
compare to:Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate
Jesus work on the cross is finished but not consummated yet.
The 70 weeks are fulfilled.
If not then, you have a week and a half left not a week. Thing is either the covenant(promise)
was confirmed or it wasnt...if it wasnt we are in deep weeds..but no worries:
Romans 15: 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promise(covenant) made to the fathers,
Daniel 9:27a Then he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(70th);
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
The week ended with the stoning of Steven...Israel was no longer the main focus and the gospel
went to the gentiles....
Math 10:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
Matthew 10:6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Till the week was over. But the consummation of the prophecy had not taken place but the week was over
Dan 9:27b Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Is poured out on the desolate.”
compare to:Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate
Jesus work on the cross is finished but not consummated yet.
The 70 weeks are fulfilled.
If not then, you have a week and a half left not a week. Thing is either the covenant(promise)
was confirmed or it wasnt...if it wasnt we are in deep weeds..but no worries:
Romans 15: 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promise(covenant) made to the fathers,
Daniel 9:27a Then he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(70th);
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
The week ended with the stoning of Steven...Israel was no longer the main focus and the gospel
went to the gentiles....
Math 10:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
Matthew 10:6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Till the week was over. But the consummation of the prophecy had not taken place but the week was over
Dan 9:27b Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
E
your still off.
The desolate in dan 9 was to occure AFTER the city and temple was destroyed by the people of the prince who is to come (rome)
then after this we have things which will happen, like the wars and desolations (or in matt 24 wars and rumors of wars) will continue until a time period which is determined It is still continuing today, jerusalem is still left desolate)
then you have the one week covenant, and the abomination of desolation..all occuring AFTER the city is destroyed.
Daniel should be read in sequence, not going back and forth
The desolate in dan 9 was to occure AFTER the city and temple was destroyed by the people of the prince who is to come (rome)
then after this we have things which will happen, like the wars and desolations (or in matt 24 wars and rumors of wars) will continue until a time period which is determined It is still continuing today, jerusalem is still left desolate)
then you have the one week covenant, and the abomination of desolation..all occuring AFTER the city is destroyed.
Daniel should be read in sequence, not going back and forth