"a thousand" literal or symbolic?
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At the end of the 69th week, or the beginning of the 70th, you have Jesus being baptized by John the baptist, this is the beginning of Jesus' ministry, not when Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem. We are still talking about prophetic weeks here, and at the middle of the week, 3 1/2 years Jesus is crucified. The text says after the 69th week, AFTER, what comes after 69, 70....He was crucified in the middle of the 70th prophetic week of Daniel.
E
the prayer is about God keeping his promise, even though his people were still in sin. make and end of sin is to turn the people form their sin, and back towards God. not take away their sin, two completely different things.
His people never stopped being in sin, even when they returned, nor was the city ever in their complete control. which is what daniel was praying for. for God to restor all/.
if it is never happened yet, then how can we say it ever was fulfilled.
His people never stopped being in sin, even when they returned, nor was the city ever in their complete control. which is what daniel was praying for. for God to restor all/.
if it is never happened yet, then how can we say it ever was fulfilled.
E
there is no evidence the 70 weeks are fulfilled/. nor that matt 24 is fulfilled, and since they are both in unison, no evidence should show us we still await a future fulfillment.
take away sin, and make an end of sin is not the same. when you make an end of something you stop it from happening.
daniels people never stopped their sin against God, they still worshipped false idols and commited abomination even during the 69 weeks, they killed their messiah. at no point, has God "made an end" of the sin of Isreal/.
Paul tells us in romans, god is purposely blinded them now,l until the time of the gentile is complete, then he will remove their blindness. it is then they they turn to God, repent, and make an end of their sin.
dan 9 concerns isreal only, it does not concern us as gentile believers or non believers. which romans 11 also shows.
take away sin, and make an end of sin is not the same. when you make an end of something you stop it from happening.
daniels people never stopped their sin against God, they still worshipped false idols and commited abomination even during the 69 weeks, they killed their messiah. at no point, has God "made an end" of the sin of Isreal/.
Paul tells us in romans, god is purposely blinded them now,l until the time of the gentile is complete, then he will remove their blindness. it is then they they turn to God, repent, and make an end of their sin.
dan 9 concerns isreal only, it does not concern us as gentile believers or non believers. which romans 11 also shows.
In Christ all things are made new. God wasn't going just restore a nation, He stored everything. It's a reality that is but not yet! Daniel might have been praying for that, but God has bigger and better plans which concerns the whole world, rather then a tiny strip of land.
Colossians 1
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. This is clear to me, all things includes everything, including a people group.
2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. I know this talks mostly of the individual, but the same concept applies to the creation. We are made a new creation through Christ, but we still sin, not purposely of course. The same concept can be applied to the creation. IT IS but NOT YET, everything has been reconciled and we are now waiting out for final manifestation, our glorified bodies and the New Heavens and New Earth which can physically been seen, brought in by Christ 2nd advent. Both Christians and Creation are mourning and earnestly waiting for this final event.
This is my take on it. You have another take. Neither view point is essential for salvation. We agree on more then we disagree, I love in Christ's love and appreciate your passion for Christ. Thanks for you input.
Colossians 1
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. This is clear to me, all things includes everything, including a people group.
2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. I know this talks mostly of the individual, but the same concept applies to the creation. We are made a new creation through Christ, but we still sin, not purposely of course. The same concept can be applied to the creation. IT IS but NOT YET, everything has been reconciled and we are now waiting out for final manifestation, our glorified bodies and the New Heavens and New Earth which can physically been seen, brought in by Christ 2nd advent. Both Christians and Creation are mourning and earnestly waiting for this final event.
This is my take on it. You have another take. Neither view point is essential for salvation. We agree on more then we disagree, I love in Christ's love and appreciate your passion for Christ. Thanks for you input.
E
see now you just went off on a tangent. Daniel prayed for HIS nation, and HIS people.
Gabriel came to him and said God heard DANIELS prayer, and this was his answer.
so to twist what is said to mean anything OUTSIDE of what Daniel prayed for is to make gabriels respons to daniel a false response.
God always had plans for us, In you shall all the nations of the world be blessed. That was always the promise, and has always been Gods will to fulfil concerning every man woman and child on earth whether jew or greek. male or female, slave or free. That was never in question.
if daniel was praying for that, i could see your point, but he was not. Thus we should not force gabriels answer to daniel to refer to anything outside what daniel was praying for. it is called twisting the word of God to suit our belief, and not interpreting the word to fit what God meant.
The land was promised to Abraham Isaac and jacob and all who are born of them, it was an eternal covenant, which means it is still valid. no matter what we say, God does not go back on his promises. IF Isreal repents, God WILL restor them according to the promises made the fathers. Yo9u can argue it all you want, you will fail.
Paul in romans 11 and MANY MANY OT Prophesies say that Isreal will be taken away because of her sin, and one day repent and be restored. Isreal did not repent to go back after babylon. God just let them back for daniels sake and other people praying for it sake, it was Gods means of putting and end to the sin of Isreal, and prove he is the true God.
This has nothing to do with daniel 9. Daniel was not praying for God to save anyones soul,. he was praying for his people to be allowed back into the land and Gods city to stop being trampled on.
I can not twist the context of daniel 9 and what Daniel prayed for, and what Gabriel gave him as an answer to HIS prayer to mean something which was not infered, prayed about, or spoken of.
I do agree with this 100 %, and am glad SOMEONE can feel this way also.
Gabriel came to him and said God heard DANIELS prayer, and this was his answer.
so to twist what is said to mean anything OUTSIDE of what Daniel prayed for is to make gabriels respons to daniel a false response.
God always had plans for us, In you shall all the nations of the world be blessed. That was always the promise, and has always been Gods will to fulfil concerning every man woman and child on earth whether jew or greek. male or female, slave or free. That was never in question.
if daniel was praying for that, i could see your point, but he was not. Thus we should not force gabriels answer to daniel to refer to anything outside what daniel was praying for. it is called twisting the word of God to suit our belief, and not interpreting the word to fit what God meant.
The land was promised to Abraham Isaac and jacob and all who are born of them, it was an eternal covenant, which means it is still valid. no matter what we say, God does not go back on his promises. IF Isreal repents, God WILL restor them according to the promises made the fathers. Yo9u can argue it all you want, you will fail.
Paul in romans 11 and MANY MANY OT Prophesies say that Isreal will be taken away because of her sin, and one day repent and be restored. Isreal did not repent to go back after babylon. God just let them back for daniels sake and other people praying for it sake, it was Gods means of putting and end to the sin of Isreal, and prove he is the true God.
This has nothing to do with daniel 9. Daniel was not praying for God to save anyones soul,. he was praying for his people to be allowed back into the land and Gods city to stop being trampled on.
I can not twist the context of daniel 9 and what Daniel prayed for, and what Gabriel gave him as an answer to HIS prayer to mean something which was not infered, prayed about, or spoken of.
I do agree with this 100 %, and am glad SOMEONE can feel this way also.
Hmmm, ok, so when does the last 1000 years begin? Has to be soon. I think we should already be in the 7000 yr now according to your timetable. But I have doubts if the earth is only 6000 yrs old now. I think it could be older, much older. If it doesn't happen in the next 15 years you've got thinking "perhaps I was wrong". We shall see.
By who's authority does 1 day = 1000 years. I believe Peter draws that phrase from the OT psalm:
Psalm 90:4
4 A thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.
So which is it, 1000 yrs is like a day or like a night watch (8 hours)? Can't be both. The answer is Peter never intended to mean that 1000 yrs = a day, I believe his intent was to say that God does not experience time as we do in His creation. God works outside of time. So Peter's audience was wondering why the Lord hasn't come again yet. So Peter responds that the Lord is not slack in His coming, but rather long suffering towards us (why, to continue to build His Church I think) because what seems like a long time to you is but a blink of an eye to Him.
Peter actually says that 1000 years is like a day, not equals a day...Big difference!!
Psalm 90:4
4 A thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.
So which is it, 1000 yrs is like a day or like a night watch (8 hours)? Can't be both. The answer is Peter never intended to mean that 1000 yrs = a day, I believe his intent was to say that God does not experience time as we do in His creation. God works outside of time. So Peter's audience was wondering why the Lord hasn't come again yet. So Peter responds that the Lord is not slack in His coming, but rather long suffering towards us (why, to continue to build His Church I think) because what seems like a long time to you is but a blink of an eye to Him.
Peter actually says that 1000 years is like a day, not equals a day...Big difference!!
A
Nope...sin was taken care of....dont make me pull my bible out EG
The gentiles received full blessings in the church 2000 years ago and
Israel has been added to the church daily such as should be saved since
from the beginning.
The children of the flesh will never be Israel, never were, never will be.
And there is no hardening any longer...thats a myth.
The gentiles received full blessings in the church 2000 years ago and
Israel has been added to the church daily such as should be saved since
from the beginning.
The children of the flesh will never be Israel, never were, never will be.
And there is no hardening any longer...thats a myth.
E
thats a myth? So paul was a liar. ok thanks. Your scaring me here. Paul said they are our enemy because of the gospel. how can they be our enemy if they are all saved?
Daniels prayer was not so everyone can get saved, he was not even praying for or about the messiah. So we can not try to make the messiah and what he did for us the answer to daniels prayer.
Daniels prayer was not so everyone can get saved, he was not even praying for or about the messiah. So we can not try to make the messiah and what he did for us the answer to daniels prayer.
E
wow. so when you pray to god and he answers your prayer, we shoudl look outside of what you prayed for to get the thing god was trying to help you with in answer to your prayer?
Now THAT IS WAY OUT THERE.
Gabriel said, God heard your prayer, and sent me to give me the answer. Thus going outside of what daniel prayed for is a false way to show is what gabriel was saying in answer to HIS PRAYER.
Now THAT IS WAY OUT THERE.
Gabriel said, God heard your prayer, and sent me to give me the answer. Thus going outside of what daniel prayed for is a false way to show is what gabriel was saying in answer to HIS PRAYER.
A
maybe its time for a new thread. Again. your talking about what Paul said and thinking its a future
situation, when it was a condition of the past.
Besides where are they enemies? Most americans nearly worship present day Israel..dont they?
Gods chosen people they say....better support them or we are toast....etc
situation, when it was a condition of the past.
Besides where are they enemies? Most americans nearly worship present day Israel..dont they?
Gods chosen people they say....better support them or we are toast....etc
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E
why? Because gabriel came to DANIEL. and said his supplication had been heard, and God sent me to answer your prayer.
Daniel ONLY prayed about his nation and his city, this Gods answer ONLY concerns this.
Daniel did NOT pray that God would come to save the sin of the people, he prayed that they would turn from their sin. So why people want to twist this into being God sending the messiah to save them in answer to a prayer which was not prayed is beyond me.
Daniel ONLY prayed about his nation and his city, this Gods answer ONLY concerns this.
Daniel did NOT pray that God would come to save the sin of the people, he prayed that they would turn from their sin. So why people want to twist this into being God sending the messiah to save them in answer to a prayer which was not prayed is beyond me.
E
why? it is not a condition of the past. As long as Isreal is the enemy of the church because of their unbelief, then it is still a present condition/. When after romans 11 did Isreal repent and turn back to God?
People support Isreal as a nation, they do not support their false ideology, It is called people whpo understand Gods covenant with abraham, Anyone who curses you (or your people) I will curse them. It has nothing to do with loving then as our brothers in Christ.
Paul did not say they would not be americas enemy, He said they would be the enemy of the church, because of their false gospel. Now your trying to add america and loving them.
Well paul did say they ARE TO BE LOVED BECAUSE OF THE FATHERS. did he not? Seems we are doing just that, even though they are the enemy of the church.
People support Isreal as a nation, they do not support their false ideology, It is called people whpo understand Gods covenant with abraham, Anyone who curses you (or your people) I will curse them. It has nothing to do with loving then as our brothers in Christ.
Paul did not say they would not be americas enemy, He said they would be the enemy of the church, because of their false gospel. Now your trying to add america and loving them.
Well paul did say they ARE TO BE LOVED BECAUSE OF THE FATHERS. did he not? Seems we are doing just that, even though they are the enemy of the church.
A
Time placement is a very important deal in understanding scripture. And so is who is Israel.
Otherwise everything gets all fuzzy and misunderstood.
We dont as Christians regard nations. True Israel is not the unbelievers, only the believing remnant.
And they have been coming into the church since the cross. All were cut off in unbelief so that He could
show mercy to all. Israel was an enemy for a short time, until Paul spread the gospel over the world
and the gentiles received full blessings and status in the church. This no longer applies.
The promise to Abraham, blessing those who bless you was not to the nation Israel but to all
the remnant which now applies to all the church, never to the unbelievers, or to a nation. I didnt
add america..i just stated thats the improper thinking and teaching in America.
Otherwise everything gets all fuzzy and misunderstood.
We dont as Christians regard nations. True Israel is not the unbelievers, only the believing remnant.
And they have been coming into the church since the cross. All were cut off in unbelief so that He could
show mercy to all. Israel was an enemy for a short time, until Paul spread the gospel over the world
and the gentiles received full blessings and status in the church. This no longer applies.
The promise to Abraham, blessing those who bless you was not to the nation Israel but to all
the remnant which now applies to all the church, never to the unbelievers, or to a nation. I didnt
add america..i just stated thats the improper thinking and teaching in America.
A
Of coarse!! My point is that even tho Daniels prayer was answered doesnt mean the answer didnt
surpass that. Why would it have to stay within the limits of his prayer.
If your gona limit Daniels answer to his prayer then youd have to cut out most of the book.
Especially the gap theory. You set yourself up on that one.
surpass that. Why would it have to stay within the limits of his prayer.
If your gona limit Daniels answer to his prayer then youd have to cut out most of the book.
Especially the gap theory. You set yourself up on that one.
E
I agree 100 %. and this is not just for time placement, but for interpreting what is being said.
I am not worried about what we as Christians believe, i am worried about what God believes.
How can true Isreal be only those who are believing when paul said they are our enemy concerning the gospel. Are those who believe in the gospel our enemy? Since when?
again, your missing the point.
Paul did not separate believing Israel from non believing israel, he separated people groups. Israel vs gentile has been a dividing line from the time Israel as a nation was formed.
Paul said Israel (the people group) was blinded so gentile (the people group) can see. Even though there were son from Israel who were also saved, meaning the blindness was not full, but in part.
No the promise was to all of Abraham children, including Israel. God NEVER promised that he would curse those who curse the church, if anything, he promised we would be cursed by others. He also never promised us poeace in our own land, Freedom from our enemies, Rain which would feed our crops etc etc.. that promise was only given to one people group, and it did not matter if they were saved or not. Why do you think God was so sever on those who go against Isreal, from babylon, to the meds even up to Hitler.
I am not worried about what we as Christians believe, i am worried about what God believes.
How can true Isreal be only those who are believing when paul said they are our enemy concerning the gospel. Are those who believe in the gospel our enemy? Since when?
again, your missing the point.
Paul did not separate believing Israel from non believing israel, he separated people groups. Israel vs gentile has been a dividing line from the time Israel as a nation was formed.
Paul said Israel (the people group) was blinded so gentile (the people group) can see. Even though there were son from Israel who were also saved, meaning the blindness was not full, but in part.
No the promise was to all of Abraham children, including Israel. God NEVER promised that he would curse those who curse the church, if anything, he promised we would be cursed by others. He also never promised us poeace in our own land, Freedom from our enemies, Rain which would feed our crops etc etc.. that promise was only given to one people group, and it did not matter if they were saved or not. Why do you think God was so sever on those who go against Isreal, from babylon, to the meds even up to Hitler.