A true Christian is a "follower" of Jesus Christ

[InSpiritInTruth]

well you are new here....but that's not how it went down

however, you are right in pointing out that if he would just get off his favorite topic, we would all just pull the covers back up

it's been lovely while he has been off in a foreign land...called other forums

Thanks for adding your usual railings, accusations and lack of spiritual insight into another Bible discussion thread. Meet my fan club!

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

oh not that again

well ok...since you don't remember

but wait a min...all those discussions with personpassingthrough...seems she kept going...but I digress

how she would flatter your insight and say things like 'oh but you know better than I do'

Awh, are you jealous? Need a hug?

 

[PeterJens]

When someone never talks about Jesus and His love and grace but in all posts there is nothing but condemnation, demonic, death, sin and accursedness and evil and hatred - there is something wrong.

The above is an obvious lie. The op is saying if you are a true Christian you follow Jesus.

So the op is by definition all about Jesus.
The proposition is hyper-grace is not about Jesus but about avoiding Jesus's words,
excusing His morality and approach and replacing the faith with another one.

Now this is not hatred, or evil or even condemnation but just stating the truth.
And yes there is something wrong with hyper-grace.

And the thing wrong is truth appears to not matter, or even morality, or Jesus's
words, which means the followers of this group do not know Christ.

 

[Jruiz]

The Gospels are in the New Testament in my Bible and I intend to keep them there!!!

I'm with you on this Chester..I honestly never heard of such things. Mark 13:31, Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.”

 

[voiceinthewild]

More mis-representation of what is being said of those that do believe in the gospel of the grace of Christ., - as usual but this is always expected of you. So, in order to keep the lies, malice and slander down to a minimum - here below is what believers in the grace of Christ "actually do believe."

I'll trust the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to those that have an open heart for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Here is an article that reveals the truth about what is really being said:

Why I am Hyper-Grace: Answering Five Common Objections

Is Hyper-Grace “dangerous” or “imbalanced”?

Author: Jeremy White/Thursday, August 21, 2014/Categories: Jeremy White, Top Picks


Introduction:

In recent times, a label has surfaced regarding what some view as a “dangerous” or “imbalanced” teaching of the grace of God. “Hyper-Grace” is now a term being used to suggest that there are some folks (such as myself) who “take God’s grace too far” and in so doing either ignore or minimize other significant teachings of the Bible.

What follows is an attempt to address a few of the most common “warnings” some have offered regarding those of us who make much of the finished work of Christ.

Objection #1: The Hyper-Grace Gospel is Unbiblical

For starters, you may be shocked to discover that “hyper-grace” is really the only adequate description for grace in the first place, according to the Bible. For example, when Paul wrote in Romans 5:20 that “…where sin increased, grace increased all the more” he was literally referring to God’s grace as “hyper.”

The Greek term for the phrase “increased all the more” (NIV) is huper-perisseuo which literally means “super-abounded.” Hyper is simply a transliteration of the prefix “huper” in Greek and means “above and beyond” in scope or quality. The term “perisseuo” refers to that which is “in far excess of what might be expected, superfluous or gratuitous.”

So in Paul’s description of God’s amazing grace, he is literally saying that because of the abundance of sin in this world, God’s grace has super-abounded in order to rescue us from sin! Paul literally describes God’s grace as HYPER in this passage. It is super-abundant and unfathomably plentiful and powerful. In fact, a few verses later Paul would state that the very reason sin is no longer our master is because we are no longer under law, but under this hyper-abounding grace (Rom. 6:14)!

If this is what one means by “hyper-grace,” then count me in as one of the “grace-heretics!” It is a label that was applied to both Paul and Jesus by the Pharisees of their day, so I am more than happy to wear it in ours. As the late scholar D. Martin Lloyd-Jones famously pointed out (andthis is my paraphrase), "If people do not sometimes misunderstand and falsely accuse you of being soft-on-sin or against God’s law, you are not preaching the real gospel!"


Objection #2: Hyper-Grace Preachers are Soft on Sin

This is a common one, of course. The idea here is that because of our high esteem of the finished work of Christ and our insistence upon keeping our eyes fixated on Jesus as Author and Finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2), we are either afraid to preach against sin or do not take sin seriously enough.

Far from being “soft on sin” – we who preach grace are extremely big on Jesus. Any gospel worthy of the hyper-grace label is a gospel which points all fingers toward Jesus rather than judgmentally pointing them at those He came to save.

There are definitely many contexts in which it is appropriate to talk about sin, warn about sin and preach against sin. I do this routinely in my preaching ministry, as do my friends who are also labeled as hyper-grace preachers. Sin is bad. It is ugly. It brings death to everything it touches. It grieves God. It makes us miserable. It comes with a variety of consequences.

No legitimate grace-preacher that I am aware of minimizes the reality that sin is evil, wrong, bad, unproductive and unfitting for a new creation in Christ. What we DO focus on, however, is the Answer to sin, which is Jesus – and the fact that His grace alone is precisely what delivers us from its penalty (death), its power (enslavement) and eventually even its very presence (when we live in the fullness of His heavenly kingdom one day).

I talk about sin all the time, but not as a means of manipulating, judging or condemning people. I talk about sin so as to help people understand both their daily and eternal need for Jesus as Savior and Lord. We hyper-grace preachers are simply standing with Paul on the promise that it is the grace of God which “teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and to live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age…” (Titus 2:11-13).

Paul taught that the power of sin is the law (1 Cor. 15:56). If a person wants to ensure that they will remain in slavery to life-dominating sin and addiction, one simple way to do that is to live under a law-based mentality. A grace-saturated life, however, frees us from the grip of sin’s mastery over us. Far from being soft on sin, we take sin very seriously. So seriously that we are pointing people unapologetically to the only Source of rescue from it! That Source is not trying harder to be a good person, culturally-espoused self-help tactics or pop-psychology.

That Source is Jesus Christ and the grace He alone offers.


Objection #3: Hyper-Grace Preachers Don’t Believe in Repentance

Not only do we believe in repentance, but we seek to understand and teach it thoroughly and accurately. In the New Testament, “to repent” is a translation of the Greek verb “metanoeo” meaning “to change one’s mind or perspective.” Obviously, when we receive Christ, we have repented in the genuine sense of the term – changing our minds about our need of a Savior and receiving Christ.

Before Christ, we lived as self-sufficiently as possible, thinking that God would probably grade on a curve and accept us at least partly on the basis of our own best efforts and self-generated goodness. When we came to understand our spiritual bankruptcy and our desperate need for Christ’s forgiveness and new life, we repented (had a change of perspective) and received Christ by trusting in Him alone to rescue us.

Beyond this initial experience of “getting saved” (as we often call it), repentance is a daily lifestyle in which an ongoing “renewal of the mind” process is taking place within us. As we grow in faith and in our understanding of God through His Word and our union with His Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:17), we begin to replace old thinking with new thinking and false thinking with true thinking. This renewal of the mind (Rom. 12:1-3) is an integral part of the transformative process of the Spirit’s work in our lives. This is the essence of a lifestyle of repentance – taking false thoughts captive, making them obedient to (in conformity with) Christ (2 Cor. 10:5).

Paul affirmed in no uncertain terms that God’s kindness (His expressed grace toward us) is what leads to repentance (Rom. 2:4). Far from being anti-repentance, hyper-grace theology affirms repentance and the ongoing renewal of the mind as an integral part of what it means to follow Jesus under His New Covenant.


Objection #4: Hyper-Grace Preachers Are Against Confession of Sin

This is one of the most common misrepresentations of hyper-grace theology. The Biblical term “to confess” simply means “to speak the same thing as” or “to agree with.” We teach that confession is important because we should yield our minds to agreement with God about everything He reveals – including, but not limited to, sin.

What we often also teach (and this is where the rub is with some people) is that confession is not about triggering any transaction between us and God that would issue forth more forgiveness, as though God were dispensing forgiveness in various doses based upon our confessions. Forgiveness of sin is something that was provided objectively ONE time by ONE act of grace through ONE Savior who shed His blood on the cross for us 2000 years ago. As the book of Hebrews repeatedly emphasizes, He is the “once for all” sacrifice for sin.

Confession of sin then, is about humility and walking in agreement with God – not about getting more forgiveness from Him. Some will suggest that God’s forgiveness is dispensed using a “two-tiered” approach. On one level, they say, God has forgiven our sins judicially and objectively through the cross. On the second tier, however, we need to confess our sins in order to receive “relational” or“experiential” forgiveness in order to maintain close fellowship with God.

This two-tiered approach is nowhere taught in the New Testament, and has only been popularized because of two basic levels of rationale. The first is based upon a misinterpretation of two passages in the New Testament, both of which have been clearly explained in books and sermons by a host of solid gospel teachers. These two passages are Matthew 6:12 (where Jesus appears to be commanding His followers to ask for God’s forgiveness) and 1 John 1:9 (which seems to link forgiveness to confession of sin).

In my book “The Gospel Uncut: Learning to Rest in the Grace of God” I deal with these passages quite clearly, as do other authors such as Bob George, Andrew Farley, Ralph Harris, Paul Ellis, Cathy Hildebrand and Andrew Nelson. I encourage you to investigate these writings for yourself in order to understand the context in which these passages were intended to be understood.

The bottom-line is this. We hyper-grace preachers DO value confession of sin. We also practice confession of sin in our own lives. However, we understand confession to be about agreeing with God concerning the foolishness of our sin rather than begging for forgiveness based upon a humanly-invented two-tiered approach to somehow "maintaining close fellowship" with Him.

Our fellowship with God was purchased unconditionally and irreversibly by Jesus at the cross. Once we receive that fellowship by simple faith in Christ, it is our eternal possession regardless of our recent performance or track-record. As I’ve written in my book, The Gospel Uncut:

"The way I now approach confession is to simply agree with God about the foolishness of my sin. I admit to Him that my sin hurts me as well as others and that it fails to bring glory to His Name. Often I am sorrowful over the foolishness of my actions. The Apostle Paul wrote that there is a “godly sorrow that brings repentance” (2 Cor. 10:7). When I know I have sinned, I humbly admit that my sinful behavior is out of step with my new nature and identity in Him, and I ask Him to help me rest in His completed work. Now here comes the best part! After agreeing with God about my sin, I begin thanking Him for the fact that this sinful act was already forgiven at the cross. Understanding these realities has literally transformed my practice of confession, changing the experience from a guilt-ridden begging session into a dynamic, worshipful encounter in which my conscious mind (and behavior) is realigned with the grace and truth of Jesus.

So yes! By all means confess your sin to God! Agree with Him about sin and everything else He has revealed. But don’t think of confession as a means of obtaining something that Jesus Christ died “once for all” to secure for you. Remember that confession is about humility and the ongoing renewal of the mind process – and never about getting something from God that is already yours in abundance through the finished work of Christ. If you are a believer in Christ, you are NEVER out of fellowship with God. Fellowship is an identity issue, meaning that you now share "all things in common" with God as a joint-heir with Christ (Rom. 8:17)! This never has been and never will be based upon your behavioral performance and is not something that you must confess sin in order to have reinstated! Because of Christ, you are always clean and God is always close!


Objection #5: Hyper-Grace Preachers are Against God’s Law

Some take this claim so far as to suggest that we even want to throw out or ignore the Old Testament. Wow! What wild imaginations these accusers have! The truth is that we are by no means antinomian (against the law of God), nor do we disbelieve or avoid teaching the Old Testament. Most of us actually esteem the power and purpose of God’s law so highly that we understand grace to be the only way of escape from its impossibly stringent demands.

Paul shared in Romans 3 and elsewhere that God’s purposes for the law were two-fold: 1) to stop our self-righteous excuses, minimizations and justifications of our sin and 2) to reveal our desperate need of a Savior by grace through faith. The entire thrust of Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount was to bury His very self-righteous audience under the weight of one inescapable reality: “Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the world’s most stringent law-keepers (the Pharisees and teachers of the law) you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt.5:20).

That Jesus came to “fulfill” the Law (Matt. 5:17) means that He came to keep its demands perfectly because He knew that we couldn’t and wouldn’t. He fulfilled the stringent demands of the Law on our behalf as our Substitute so that His record of perfection could be credited to our spiritual account when we received Him by grace through faith. He did what you and I couldn’t and wouldn’t, and the Sermon on the Mount is a damning indictment of anyone who thinks they can measure up to God’s standards on their own effort.

And have you heard of this “cheap grace” idea? Sometimes the term is ripped off and redefined from Bonhoeffer’s vocabulary to insinuate that the hyper-grace movement has cheapened the grace of God by making it “too easy” for people to attain. After all, we live in a world where there’s no such thingas a free lunch, right? We certainly don't believe or teach that grace is cheap. It cost Jesus His life! But we DO agree with the New Testament that His grace is FREE to those who receive it freely by faith.

The truth of the matter is that hyper-grace teachers are not guilty of promoting cheap grace at all. Rather, our critics are often guilty of promoting cheap Law! Far from being anti-law, WE are the ones who esteem God's Law so highly as to conclude that there is no escape from its condemnation apart from faith in Christ alone! The Law is an all-or-nothing proposition. To stumble in just one aspect of keeping it is the equivalent of breaking all of it (James 2:10). The Law is a ministry of death and condemnation (2 Cor. 3:7-11). The Law is not the bad guy, however. It simply points out who the bad guys are (the world, the flesh and the devil)! The Law is holy and pure and designed to show us what sin is (Rom.7:7).

But living under Law cannot save, change or transform a single heart – only grace can! And this is why we are so adamant about never mixing a law-based mentality with a grace-based mentality toward spiritual life or growth under God’s New Covenant. The New Testament repeatedly affirms that our salvation and sanctification are either completely by law or completely by grace, but cannot be a result of mixing the two.


Conclusion:

With all of that said, the idea of trying to somehow “balance grace” with anything is ludicrous according to both Scripture and plain reason. Grace, by definition, is radically IMBALANCED in our favor! If it were not, it would cease to be grace on that very basis! The term “hyper-grace” is far from insulting! It is in fact the ONLY kind of grace taught, supported and promoted in the Bible.

God understands that His grace is open to the possibility of abuse by those who might misunderstand it. He understands that people may take His grace for granted or even at times misrepresent it as a license to sin. Paul addressed those concerns very clearly, as did Jesus and the other New Testament writers.

However, the fact that grace is open to misinterpretation and the possibility of abuse does not give us license to water it down, explain it away or cheapen its glory by adding a single measure of law into it as an attempt to stay "balanced." There is nothing balanced whatsoever about the grace of God! We rejoice in that! We celebrate that! We proclaim that without apology!

May God reveal His hyper-grace more clearly to you in the days ahead! Feel free to chime in with your thoughts below.
(For a more exhaustive treatment of this critical subject, check out the book "The Hyper-Grace Gospel" by my friend Paul Ellis )

Why I am Hyper-Grace: Answering Five Common Objections

This is excellent! I skimmed through most of it, but I was deeply moved by what I read. This is my understanding of God's grace.

 

[LaurenTM]

he whistles and she comes...illustrating my observations

at any rate, mrspirit, you don't have a fan club. what you have are members who have no respect for your rude and mocking posts

you have no one reading your site, and needing attention as you do, you come back here and no one bothers so you start up again with Joseph Prince

all I did was post your very own quotes and you call for backup and do your best to try and make it seem I am not right about you

but I am right about you...you are no prophet...your posts are full of hatred for believers here...you call them sons of belial in that one quote I posted and that thread is a goldmine for an understanding of your narcissistic personality

I just pray that those you like to target will ignore you and report you when you try to derail threads they start

I don't give a hoot about your responses...they actually give credence to what I said and compliment my observations

I'm sure you and your pal have plans to discuss so I'll leave you to it

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

he whistles and she comes...illustrating my observations

I recall it was you whistling my name (and not too well at that) which demonstrates how forgetful you seem to be.

Y̶o̶u̶r̶ what a joke

 

[Grace777x70]

This is excellent! I skimmed through most of it, but I was deeply moved by what I read. This is my understanding of God's grace.

I agree....but you do realize that now you will be labeled as the evil "hyper-grace" clan and your love for the Lord that the knowledge of His love and grace towards you produces in you - now makes you a "cult" member...it's actually a great sign.

True grace disturbs the religious D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset. The preaching of Christ and His finished work always does that....again it's a good sign.

If we are not accused of saying grace says it's ok to sin all you want or that we are antinomian - we haven't preached the gospel like Paul did.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Who whistled my name?

well ok...since you don't remember

but wait a min...all those discussions with personpassingthrough...seems she kept going...but I digress

He???

he whistles and she comes...illustrating my observations

Good luck demonstrating that

I don't give a hoot about your responses...they actually give credence to what I said and compliment my observations

LOL!

 

[followjesus]

The word “Christian” by definition is a follower of Jesus Christ, which means a follower of Jesus Christs teachings. Notice the word Christian in 1 Peter 4:16…

Yet [SUP]G1161[/SUP] if [SUP]G1487[/SUP] any man suffer as [SUP]G5613[/SUP] a Christian, [SUP]G5546[/SUP] let him [SUP]G153[/SUP] [SUP]G0[/SUP] not [SUP]G3361[/SUP] be ashamed; [SUP]G153[/SUP] but [SUP]G1161[/SUP] let him glorify [SUP]G1392[/SUP] God [SUP]G2316[/SUP] on [SUP]G1722[/SUP] this [SUP]G5129[/SUP] behalf. [SUP]G3313[/SUP]


The word Christian G5546 is defined as Χριστιανός Christianós, khris-tee-an-os'; from G5547; a Christian, i.e. follower of Christ:—Christian.


But many who proclaim themselves to be “Christians” are not really “followers” of Jesus Christs teachings. As a matter of fact many of them proclaim Jesus’ teachings and sayings were not for them to follow, but only to the Jews, as some M.A.D. doctrine teaches. And some also go on to teach that Jesus and the Apostles before Paul taught a works based gospel message for salvation, and that it was not until Paul became a Christian that the body of Christ first began, and the true message of grace was first being taught, basically saying Paul taught a different gospel message than Jesus. This is also one reason they reject Jesus Christs teachings, sayings, and commands as for them to follow.


But there is also a movement called “hyper grace” which is spin off of the same false grace message which includes the early beliefs of “Antinomianism.” Here is what their cult leader Joseph Prince teaches about following Jesus Christ’s DOCTRINE= teachings, sayings, and commands…... “21- We can’t take doctrine from the gospels because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead yet.”(end quote)


So in effect they disregard the very words of Jesus Christ and His doctrine, and even in some cases they reject OT scripture and all the other apostles besides Paul as being “legalism” or “works based”. And by disregarding and by not keeping the doctrine, teachings, commands, words, and sayings of Jesus Christ, they are in Truth not really “followers” of Jesus Christ and His teachings. Therefore by definition they are not truly “Christians” but just followers of the doctrines of men, like Joseph Prince.


This theology of not following Jesus’ doctrine, even by their own confession, proves they are not truly “followers” of Jesus Christ and His teachings. To follow Jesus Christ and his teachings, commands, and sayings is action word, as to follow and to keep, and to do God’s will, and to obey as is an act of obedience by being a righteous servant of Jesus Christ.

Jesus says to follow me, to do the will of His Father, to keep His words, commandments, and sayings. This is repeated over and over again by the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


Matthew 16:24 “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 7:21 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 8:15 “But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.”

Luke 11:28 “But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.


John 14:23 “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”

John 14:24 “He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”

1 John 2:5 “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.”

John 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
John 14:21 “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.”

John 15:10 “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.”

John 8:51 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”

John 8:52 “Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.”

John 15:20 “Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.


Beware of these cult followings, which in truth are not truly Christian by definition.

even pauls teachings are all based on Jesus gospel. He teaches repentance, obedience because of Faith. He teaches all the same things as far as how we must NOT Live, and how we must Live. even the same manner

jesus said " unless you repent, you too will all perish"

paul says " you must rid yourselves of all such things as these ( giving a list of the same things Jesus teaches us to repent of)

Jesus teaches us the things TO do

paul teaches us the same things by using words Like " put on the new self created to be like God in true righteosuness and holiness and live a life of Love. giving the actions again based on the same things Jesus taught. paul uses different words, teaches the same things. he teaches "Grace for the purpose of obedience" He teaches to be forgiven and go and sin no more. Just Like Jesus did.

he teaches " forgive as the Lord forgave you" Just Like Jesus. He teaches the same eternal judgement based upon what we do in response to Jesus sacrifice, he teaches accountability, and also the principles that will disqualify believers who dont live the part......

Jesus says " it is not those who call me Lord, but those who do the will of God" paul teaches " do you not Know you are slaves to the one you obey? whether it is sin leading to death, or obedience leading to righteousness"

Paul even says " anyone who teaches false doctrine that does not agree to the sound instruction of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and godly teaching, is conceited and understands nothing"....he says plainly what grace is for in titus 2:11-15, he says it at the beginning of the letter to the romans.....

goos post

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

even pauls teachings are all based on Jesus gospel. He teaches repentance, obedience because of Faith. He teaches all the same things as far as how we must NOT Live, and how we must Live. even the same manner

jesus said " unless you repent, you too will all perish"

paul says " you must rid yourselves of all such things as these ( giving a list of the same things Jesus teaches us to repent of)

Jesus teaches us the things TO do

paul teaches us the same things by using words Like " put on the new self created to be like God in true righteosuness and holiness and live a life of Love. giving the actions again based on the same things Jesus taught. paul uses different words, teaches the same things. he teaches "Grace for the purpose of obedience" He teaches to be forgiven and go and sin no more. Just Like Jesus did.

he teaches " forgive as the Lord forgave you" Just Like Jesus. He teaches the same eternal judgement based upon what we do in response to Jesus sacrifice, he teaches accountability, and also the principles that will disqualify believers who dont live the part......

Jesus says " it is not those who call me Lord, but those who do the will of God" paul teaches " do you not Know you are slaves to the one you obey? whether it is sin leading to death, or obedience leading to righteousness"

Paul even says " anyone who teaches false doctrine that does not agree to the sound instruction of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and godly teaching, is conceited and understands nothing"....he says plainly what grace is for in titus 2:11-15, he says it at the beginning of the letter to the romans.....

goos post

Yes, I would beware of those who transgress and say Jesus' teachings, sayings, and commands were only for the Jews, and is OT, not NT teachings, that do not apply or pertain to them. Even John said not to bid such a one God speed who teaches such.

2 John 9-11

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

[voiceinthewild]

I agree....but you do realize that now you will be labeled as the evil "hyper-grace" clan and your love for the Lord that the knowledge of His love and grace towards you produces in you - now makes you a "cult" member...it's actually a great sign.

True grace disturbs the religious D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset. The preaching of Christ and His finished work always does that....again it's a good sign.

If we are not accused of saying grace says it's ok to sin all you want or that we are antinomian - we haven't preached the gospel like Paul did.

Don't misunderstand me. Sin has a consequence and a price. It always does. It ALWAYS leads to pain, confusion, and destruction on some level. Those are not things God is okay with. If you've been saved by grace and you use that to whitewash your sin, you're definitely not on the same page as Christ who commanded, "Go and sin no more."

 

[heavenly_bound]

]Jesus and his disciples taught openly, and it was no secret that Messiah was to come [/I]because the law and prophets testified of His coming, even though many rejected Jesus as the Christ, as they do still today.

that is exactly what i said in my post. but my question was, why could Jesus not preach publicly about his salvific work on the cross and justification through his cross? why did he mention all that would transpire through his work(suffering death , burial quickening raising ascension and session) only to the disciples and not to the public when he preached and taught? i really need to hear your answers pls.

 

[Grace777x70]

Don't misunderstand me. Sin has a consequence and a price. It always does. It ALWAYS leads to pain, confusion, and destruction on some level. Those are not things God is okay with. If you've been saved by grace and you use that to whitewash your sin, you're definitely not on the same page as Christ who commanded, "Go and sin no more."

Amen..I agree. Sin is destructive and it distorts our view of God, ourselves and others. It causes heartache and trouble with those we love.

Unbelief in what Christ has already done is one of the greatest sins that we can be living in even while going to church, reading the bible, praying and fasting...etc.

I also agree that true grace gives us the life "to go and sin no more".

There are 2 aspects to grace.

The very first thing that Jesus does with the woman caught in adultery is that He gets rid of her accusers - the religious Pharisees that wanted to condemn her because the "bible" said so in the Old Covenant...she was to be stoned. ( the law condemns us )

Jesus was the only one qualified to condemn her but He didn't.


1) acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior - as seen with the woman caught in adultery. Our Lord beautifully says " I do not condemn you".

It is in knowing you are not condemned that releases the other aspect of grace.

2) now, go and sin no more - this is empowering grace.

Empowering grace enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ now because you are a new creation in Him.


The religious mindset says to the woman caught in adultery - 'Do not sin and we will not condemn you."

The grace of God and the blood of Jesus speaks of better things in this New Covenant of grace!

"Knowing" that we are not condemned in Christ "releases" the life of the empowering grace to transform us. It's all about Christ! It's His fruit being manifested in us!

Acceptance grace which is not based on our behavior needs to be cemented in our hearts before empowering grace is able to be manifested.


What believers in a self-effort/self-performance D.I.Y. holiness/righteousness based mindset and the self-appointed "fruit inspectors" have a very hard time with is the "acceptance grace" part...this just drives them nuts...and I understand why..it is scandalous and it "conflicts" with their religious man-made traditions.

 

[voiceinthewild]

Amen..I agree. Sin is destructive and it distorts our view of God, ourselves and others. It causes heartache and trouble with those we love.

Unbelief in what Christ has already done is one of the greatest sins that we can be living in even while going to church, reading the bible, praying and fasting...etc.

I also agree that true grace gives us the life "to go and sin no more".

There are 2 aspects to grace.

The very first thing that Jesus does with the woman caught in adultery is that He gets rid of her accusers - the religious Pharisees that wanted to condemn her because the "bible" said so in the Old Covenant...she was to be stoned. ( the law condemns us )

Jesus was the only one qualified to condemn her but He didn't.


1) acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior - as seen with the woman caught in adultery. Our Lord beautifully says " I do not condemn you".

It is in knowing you are not condemned that releases the other aspect of grace.

2) now, go and sin no more - this is empowering grace.

Empowering grace enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ now because you are a new creation in Him.


The religious mindset says to the woman caught in adultery - 'Do not sin and we will not condemn you."

The grace of God and the blood of Jesus speaks of better things in this New Covenant of grace!

"Knowing" that we are not condemned in Christ "releases" the life of the empowering grace to transform us. It's all about Christ! It's His fruit being manifested in us!

Acceptance grace which is not based on our behavior needs to be cemented in our hearts before empowering grace is able to be manifested.


What believers in a self-effort/self-performance D.I.Y. holiness/righteousness based mindset and the self-appointed "fruit inspectors" have a very hard time with is the "acceptance grace" part...this just drives them nuts...and I understand why..it is scandalous and it "conflicts" with their religious man-made traditions.

Amen brother! Amen!

It's taken me a lot of years of struggle to come to the same understanding. I was an atheist until I was 19 and I basically got saved through reading the Bible. Church was quite confusing at first lol. Since that time, I've went up and down every path of following God as I sought out His will and understanding. I don't condemn or judge any brothers and sisters in Christ who believe differently from me, and I accept them as they are. But I do understand why many of their churches are falling and stagnant and it has much to do with a greater Christian cultural understanding of God's grace: people don't want to worship a boring, organ-playing, rise-and-sit, repeat some scripture, gotta be baptised to join, gotta wear a skirt to attend, meek and mild God of do's and don'ts. People will never be transformed by the renewing of their mind and conform to Christ if that's what they see their faith as. They want to worship the One True Living God and the express image of Him in the flesh, the Lord Jesus Christ. They want to experience the Holy Spirit - and I'm not talking about running around the church and hanging from the chandeliers and speaking nonsense no one can understand.

Many people think they have to clean up before/when they go to church, but we're supposed to be born again - not DIY'ers. DIY'ers will always fail or if they are fairly successful at keeping the commands, they will have an attitude of self-righteousness. Who needs God if you can DIY? "My grace is sufficient" Jesus said. No matter the crime or the sin or the failure, His grace is and always will be sufficient, but even our own righteousness is as filthy rags.

When a person declares, "It's all about Christ!" I'm right there with them in Spirit!

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

that is exactly what i said in my post. but my question was, why could Jesus not preach publicly about his salvific work on the cross and justification through his cross? why did he mention all that would transpire through his work(suffering death , burial quickening raising ascension and session) only to the disciples and not to the public when he preached and taught? i really need to hear your answers pls.

Jesus spoke what the Father commanded Him to speak. Anyone who set their hearts to the law and prophets, and had been given the Spirit of God to see would have known that Jesus was the Messiah, and was going to suffer death for their sins. There are multitudes of scripture in the law and prophets, in the Psalms of David that spoke of Christ and his coming, and suffering, even his death and resurrection.

Moses spoke of Christ's coming....

Deuteronomy 18:15-19[SUP] "[/SUP]The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

Here is prophecy from Isaiah speaking of Messiah, and of his suffering and death for the sins of the people...


Isaiah 53

53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Here David by the Spirit spoke of Christ's resurrection....

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

So those whom the Father revealed Christ to, would have known Jesus was the Messiah that was prophesied to come, and die for the sins of many and be resurrected.

 

[bikerchaz]

WOW, here we go again, but before I get carried away (by men in white coats LOL) Hi Peron ~ Oops Pilgrimpassingthrough LOL that made me chuckle, I have missed you sister, you do your stuff better that any one I know LOL it took me ages with that paragraph and my fingers like to flow LOL.

I will admit I wasn't up to speed on this gog/hyper grace stuff, until it hit me today, today of all days. I am now in two minds, one to stay with CC and one to shake of the dust and leave. I have never been so affronted by what I have heard until today

"The gospels do not apply to the new man in Christ" this was written by one of the posters on this thread. Full dialogue;

no one is disputing the fact that the 4 gospels are the wisdom and truth of God. what we are saying is that they are not essential for the christian faith in this church age, yes we learn from them, but they do not apply to the new man in Christ.,thus they must be interpreted in light of the epistles!!! after all these gospels were written for the sake of the Epistles and not the Epistles for the gospels

WOW I am astounded and just do not know what to think. I am mindful that I should say nothing led by the Spirit beaus it would be throwing pearls before swine, and giving the dogs what they do not deserve will only make them turn and maul me, so no way I think I am done here, as I said "two minds".

I just realised now I will be accused of being 'double minded' LOL

 

[PeterJens]

2) now, go and sin no more - this is empowering grace.

It is always possible to appear to be saying one thing and actually be saying something
else.

Does this statement mean you believe you walk righteously in Christ?

Or does this mean you walk, and it is Christ righteousness which is you own?

Now dear reader, everytime Grace777 puts up the DIY argument, but here he
appears to be talking about victory in Christ, but he also approves of those who
say this is impossible, so as normal I think this is miss-construing theology.

Is this lying or just propoganda to gain allegiance or the appearence of authodoxy,
while bringing condemnation on those who truly follow Jesus.

I know people who in their own strength attempt to follow Christ without a changed
heart and the Holy Spirit and obviously fail. But as John says, we know we are in God
because we obey.

 

[lastofall]

Sorry but [for me anyway] we are not suppose to make fellowship in Christ a scholastically achieving endeavor as some sort of wise and prudent; rather we can only have the Truth revealed to us as babes which are the practical common folk, such as carpenters, fishermen, tent-makers, and such like. Anyway again [for me anyway] to be followers of the Lord Jesus Christ we ought to first understand that to follow is not to be beside Him or be in front of Him, but behind Him; secondly we ought also to know what disqualifies us in being His disciple according to He Himself who tells us plainly without scholastic achievement saying:
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26-27)
"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:33)

So therefore unless we have made the sincere effort to deny our own will and the will of anyone else; and except we have made the sincere effort to carry our own load (i.e. own our sins); and unless we are making the sincere effort to have no attachment to anything that is ours, then we are only mere superficial Christians, and not true ones.

 

[PeterJens]

A question strikes me.

What is the benefit to appear truly spiritual but actually being heretical?

To attack and discourage sheep who are walking close to Christ while being
a wolf in your heart.

The belief is the evil are doing the same, using legalism to bind people with
impossible goals of Christs words.

I see when people have appreciate certain preachers, the preachers appear as shinning
lights, until you hear the killer lines of condemnation of righteousness or morality,
saying these teachers are evil, but we have the light and are true.

And the common theme is always the same, listening to standards or principles only
brings condemnation, and condemnation is evil from satan.

I always find this odd, because sin rightly should be condemned and repented of, yet
following this idea, sin is ok, you should become unaware of it, and then you are holy.
Talk about defilement, and hatred rises up in their hearts, how dare you suggest anyone
can be defiled by sin. Odd that, because that is what Jesus says is the spiritual truth,
we are defiled by our words and deeds that come from sinful desires in our hearts.

But once you start to disconnect sin and righteousness from behaviour you loose the plot.