Abomination of Desolation

eternally-gratefull · Sep 23, 2019

Yes it means a covenant which is already in place.

Stop trying to talk to me as if I am ignorant or unlearned please. Thank you!

Yes he did But that confirmation is eternal. forever, NOT 7 years You should take this into account, because it PROVES your thinking is off base

once again, He has not made any yet.

once again your assuming things not yet known.

KJV1611 · Sep 23, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

You still don’t understand what CONFIRMATION means. Jesus DID NOT make a seven year covenant, he CONFIRMED the ETERNAL covenant made to Abraham.

Your brain is so convoluted with the Antichrist making a peace treaty that you can’t comprehend what CONFIRMING the promises God made to Abraham even means.

I’ve put it as clearly as I can there’s nothing more that I can say.

PlainWord · Sep 23, 2019

There is no question that the Abomination of Desolation were the Roman armies which left Jerusalem desolate in 70 AD. It is so patently obvious. Daniel wrote about this while in captivity in Babylon around the 560s BC. Jesus, in Mat 24, then references Daniel's A of D. Referring to Daniel's writings, Jesus says, "whoever reads, let him understand." Reads what? Daniel's scroll of course. The one Daniel was ordered to seal until the time of the end (of Israel and the Law). The same scroll Jesus opens in Rev 5 and (through John) tells the 7 churches. The following passages all relate to the same book/scroll and the same events about to unfold in Israel within THAT generation (i.e. within 40 years)

“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase. (Dan 12:4)

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand) (Mat 24:15)

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place...Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. (Rev 1:1-3 truncated)

“Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.” (Rev 5:5)

The saints would be reading the letters John sent to them which contained the prophesies in Daniel's scroll as revealed and amplified by Jesus, the one and only person capable of opening it. The time was near, not far.

It would be less than 40 years from the time Jesus spoke this warning to when Israel would cease to exist as a nation and Jerusalem would be totally and utterly destroyed and left desolate. But many on this thread support that idea that neither Daniel or Jesus would breath a word about this pending destruction, rather, they think they skipped over this event and were discussing some future Israel 2,000 years later. WOW!!

Hevosmies · Sep 23, 2019

PlainWord said:

There is no question that the Abomination of Desolation were the Roman armies which left Jerusalem desolate in 70 AD. It is so patently obvious. Daniel wrote about this while in captivity in Babylon around the 560s BC. Jesus, in Mat 24, then references Daniel's A of D. Referring to Daniel's writings, Jesus says, "whoever reads, let him understand." Reads what? Daniel's scroll of course. The one Daniel was ordered to seal until the time of the end (of Israel and the Law). The same scroll Jesus opens in Rev 5 and (through John) tells the 7 churches. The following passages all relate to the same book/scroll and the same events about to unfold in Israel within THAT generation (i.e. within 40 years)

“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase. (Dan 12:4)

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand) (Mat 24:15)

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place...Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. (Rev 1:1-3 truncated)

“Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.” (Rev 5:5)

The saints would be reading the letters John sent to them which contained the prophesies in Daniel's scroll as revealed and amplified by Jesus, the one and only person capable of opening it. The time was near, not far.

It would be less than 40 years from the time Jesus spoke this warning to when Israel would cease to exist as a nation and Jerusalem would be totally and utterly destroyed and left desolate. But many on this thread support that idea that neither Daniel or Jesus would breath a word about this pending destruction, rather, they think they skipped over this event and were discussing some future Israel 2,000 years later. WOW!!

Real question is why would John send a letter about whats going on in Jerusalem when all the churches are in modern-day Turkey? (Asia in the bible)

Gotta love it! BE REAL CAREFUL CHURCHES OF THE 1ST CENTURY, SOMETHING BIG IS COMING THOUSANDS OF MILES FROM YOU. WATCH OUT NOW!

PlainWord · Sep 23, 2019

KJV1611 said:

You know good buddy, there is another way of looking at this covenant. For the longest time I thought as you that it was Jesus confirming the covenant. It has to be either Jesus or "the prince to come" which was Titus. It recently came to my attention that when Vespasian and Titus first came to Jerusalem to put down the rebellion they arrived in 67 AD and made some deals.

Andrew of Saint Victor writes, “The Roman emperor Vespasian, with Titus his son, made a pact of peace with those who ruled among the Jews, or composed a pact of peace with many of the Jews and effected truces for seven years.” (Exposition of Daniel. On Daniel 9:27. CCCM 53F:100, cited in Gary DeMar and Francis X. Gumerlock, The Early Church and the End of the World, (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, Inc., 2006), 90). This is probably true as some of the former rulers of Palestine like Herod Agrippa II and Queen Berenice immediately allied themselves with Vespasian and Titus at the start of the revolt in all likelihood because of a covenant they made to reclaim the right to rule their kingdoms again once the war was over. Not surprisingly at the end of the war Agrippa II was even awarded with additional territory in Palestine.

This truce or covenant between Rome and it Jewish supporters could be symbolically illustrated in Rev as the Beast and Harlot.

eternally-gratefull · Sep 23, 2019

KJV1611 said:

You still cant read

The passage says he confirms a covenant for 1 week (7 years)

Jesus confirmed a covenant which was already set in stone, and eternal promise, not some 7 year covenant.

It also said in the middle of that. 1 week period shall be the abomination of desolation, in no belief can you fit the abomination of desolation 3.5 years post death of christ

So no way to resolve your thinking

PlainWord · Sep 23, 2019

Hevosmies said:

I guess you don't know your early Church history very well !!! Most Christians, especially Jewish Christians, would return to Jerusalem to celebrate 3 of the Jewish holidays/festivals. One of them was Pentecost. In Jerusalem the Christian church located on Mount Zion, just south of the Temple, was massive. Jewish Christians would stay together for protection there from the unbelieving Jews who constantly would persecute or even kill them as they had been doing all over Israel and the Roman Empire. Christians from all over the Roman Empire would travel to Jerusalem and worship with their Jewish Christian brethren just as Jesus did for each Passover. Zion was elevated and easily protected separated from the temple mount by a deep crevice.

According to many historians, the normal population of Jerusalem during this time was around 200,000 to 250,000. According to Josephus, this number would swell 5X during certain festivals. Thus it was very important to all Churches to know what was going to happen in Jerusalem as many would be there at the beginning of the great tribulation, before it started. But if they listened to the warnings of Christ, they would know when to flee as the faithful did which is recorded in history.

The other reason it would be important to know is that the Law would be ending soon, the persecution from their enemies would end as Paul promised the Thessalonians, But most importantly, the Presence (Parousa) of Christ would return to dwell among them as He promised He would. As Luke would say, "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.” (Lk 21:28)

PlainWord · Sep 23, 2019

To my new friend Hevosmies,

I think the main reason so many Christians are futurists is because of one poorly translated verse in Mat 24. Look at this verse in Young's Literal Translation. This is what it REALLY says:

3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

You see, it's Christ's PRESENCE that was to return. He was to return at the end of the AGE, not the end of the world. The end of Israel, the temple which represented the Law ended in 70 AD. The disciples wanted signs since the Presence of Christ wouldn't be as obvious as the man standing there with them. Christ Himself described His return as like a flash of lightening. A flash of lightening hitting the Temple and lighting it up was recorded by Tacticus.

Presence DOES NOT EQUAL Coming. The opposite of Presence is Absence. The opposite of coming is leaving. In the OT, God's presence would be with His people when they were obedient. He would turn His face from them (absent) when they were disobedient. Christ, as leading of the Church, is PRESENT with us from 70 AD to now!! Since Christ is with His church now, when did that start? He clearly left and sent His Helper. He would not have needed to send the Holy Spirit if He wasn't going to be gone for awhile.

But don't take my word for it. Take the word of someone who was there, a first century Jew, who recognized that the "FULL END OF THE AGE had come:

But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages; it was the tenth day of the month Lous, [Ab,] upon which it was formerly burnt by the king of Babylon (WAR 6-4-5)

KJV1611 · Sep 23, 2019

PlainWord said:

Vespasian and Titus May have signed a peace treaty with the Jews but Daniel 9 isn’t about a peace treaty, it’s about someone confirming an existing covenant with MANY people for ONE WEEK not seven years and in the midst of that week he will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease.

Jesus said lo I come, in the VOLUME of the book, it is written of me. That means the Bible is Jesus from cover to cover.

Would it not be a one heck of a coincidence that Jesus rode into town on Palm Sunday saying “Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt”.

And then exactly 7 days later, ONE WEEK later Jesus rose from the dead, confirming the covenant that God made with Abraham.

Also, in the middle of those 7 days, ONE WEEK, was offered up on Calvary and did away with the need of animal sacrifices.

PW that treaty if it truly ever existed at all, was not fulfillment of Daniel 9:27.

Nice to have you back my friend!

Hevosmies · Sep 23, 2019

PlainWord said:

I believe the Presence of Christ returned at Pentecost. Jesus says He must go away so the Holy Spirit can come!

KJV1611 · Sep 23, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

Where are you getting that I said “Jesus confirmed a seven year covenant”?

I haven’t said anything remotely close to that.

MattforJesus · Sep 23, 2019

Hevosmies said:

God is going to restore the physical kingdom on earth back to Israel, which at that time all Jews will be back on their land.

Not the spiritual kingdom, but a physical kingdom for 1000 years, then the spiritual kingdom the New Jerusalem.

It has to be done for Israel as a nation has to come to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah, before God can proceed with getting the saints to the New Jerusalem.

For Jesus said salvation is of the Jews.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

The disciples knew from the Old Testament that God would restore the kingdom on earth back to the Jews, and Jesus did not deny it, but said the Father will do it in His time.

It has not been done yet so it is a future event when all the Jews are back on their land.

Jer 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

Which God will make a full end of all Gentile governments, but not make a full end of Israel, but she will not be altogether unpunished for she is punished in part for rejecting the truth, which she was scattered in to the nations.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Which Jesus and the saints will rule over the heathen that God spared at the battle of Armageddon when He fought the world, and defeated them.

Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Israel shall know the LORD their God from that time forward, which they will always be in the truth from that time forward, which this is a future prophesy, for Israel as a nation is not in the truth.

Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

The heathen shall know that the house of Israel went in to captivity for their sins against God, and rejecting the truth, and the heathen will know that God was always with the nation of Israel, but they temporarily lost the kingdom, and the power, which Paul said that God did not cast away His people that He once foreknew.

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

God will bring back the captivity of Jacob, the whole house of Israel, after they have borne their shame, and gather them out of the nations, and leave none of them in the nations anymore.

Then Israel shall know the LORD their God from that time forward, and He will never hide His face from them again.

When the New Age Christ, man of sin, establishes peace in the Middle East it will pave the way for all Jews to go to Israel, for the Gentile nations will cause it to happen, and the man of sin wants them all back on their land, but God means it for good towards the Jews.

And all the Jews will be back on their land, and soon the kingdom will be restored to Israel for God will turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah, and the man of sin and the world attack them, and Jesus comes back with the saints and defeats the world, and saves Israel.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

God called Israel and He will never turn from it but bring them to the truth like He has always done in the past.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

When Jesus defeats the world He will be King over all the earth, and nobody will acknowledge any god, or religious figure, but Jesus, and the kingdom restored to Israel.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

The heathen have to go up year after year to worship Jesus, and keep the feast of tabernacles to be right with God since they are not spiritual.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus came to fulfill the law by being a sinless man obeying the laws of God, and fulfilling the roles of Israel such as Saint, King, High Priest, Prophet, and being the temple and sacrifice.

But He has not fulfilled the role of perfect King on earth, and it must be done on earth, and that is what the millennial reign is about, and when the 1000 years is over then the law is fulfilled, and then this physical heaven and earth shall pass away.

When the man of sin establishes peace in the Middle East the Jews will rebuild their temple, and go back to animal sacrifices for they are still blinded in part, with no hassle from the Palestinians, and the Jews will split Jerusalem with the Jews.

Joe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Joe 3:4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head.

But God will pay back the Palestinians for their mistreatment of His people when He fights the world.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Which when the nations come together to try to establish peace on earth, and all the Jews back on their land will the world side with the Jews or the Palestinians.

It s good advice that they side with the Jews, very good advice.

The man of sin will step in to their temple and claim to be their God and Messiah, and when the world follows him then repentance and salvation is no longer available to them, and then God will turn Israel to the truth.

The physical temple will be rebuilt for Israel.

eternally-gratefull · Sep 23, 2019

KJV1611 said:

There is no other covenant mentioned, and you said jesus confirmed it

Its called inductive reasoning

KJV1611 · Sep 23, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

The covenant was the covenant God made to Abraham, there is NO NEW covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27. The prince is CONFIRMING the covenant God made with Abraham.

I seriously don't think you know what the word confirm means... you can't know what it means or you wouldn't make the comments you're making.

Confirm - establish the truth or correctness of (something previously believed, suspected, or feared to be the case).

The tests confirmed the doctors' suspicions of cancer.
The attack confirmed her worst fears about the neighborhood.
The award confirmed her status as one of the great movie actresses.
The dentist's office called to confirm your appointment for tomorrow.

eternally-gratefull · Sep 23, 2019

KJV1611 said:

The covenant was the covenant God made to Abraham, there is NO NEW covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27. The prince is CONFIRMING the covenant God made with Abraham.

I seriously don't think you know what the word confirm means... you can't know what it means or you wouldn't make the comments you're making.

Confirm - establish the truth or correctness of (something previously believed, suspected, or feared to be the case).

The tests confirmed the doctors' suspicions of cancer.
The attack confirmed her worst fears about the neighborhood.
The award confirmed her status as one of the great movie actresses.
The dentist's office called to confirm your appointment for tomorrow.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

End of discussion

Jesus did not confirm any covenant with many for one week!

tourist · Sep 23, 2019

KJV1611 said:

The covenant that is confirmed might be the 7 year treaty that Israel signs that guarantees their safety.

KJV1611 · Sep 23, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

Rom_15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

KJV1611 · Sep 23, 2019

tourist said:

Only in the dispensationalist eyes does one week mean 7 years instead of 7 days.

PlainWord · Sep 23, 2019

KJV1611 said:

Thanks KJV.

Again though, it has to be either Jesus or Titus being discussed relative to the week as they are the only two in focus in v 26. If you look at Young's it really seems to point more at Titus. Before we look at YLT, it is important to note that the 69 weeks of years had concluded. There is no way the final or missing week was a literal week IMHO. The measurement for the chapter is 1 week = 7 years.

26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations.

27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

In this literal translation, it seems clear Titus is in focus as the one who desolates with his flood of solders. We know also that on the wing of the temple he placed his pagan ensigns while the temple burned.

eternally-gratefull · Sep 23, 2019

KJV1611 said:

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

End of discussion

Abomination of Desolation

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