About the book of Job

[Combanitorics]

When we start to read the book of Job, it is said that he had everything and he believed in God. But he wasn’t only a believer. His faith was alive, it wasn’t only words, he offered sacrifices in case his children act against God, not only by doing something wrong but also by thinking wrong. It tells us a lot about what it means to have a strong relationship with God. According to God, there was no one like him on Earth regarding integrity and going away from badness. When we listen to the news, we must admit our society is completely at the opposite, getting away from goodness and looking for darkness, whatever people may try to do. Everything goes wrong. It doesn’t mean we don’t have to fight, on the contrary, but we need energy and a good example such as Job. To prove the rare relationship between God and Job, God lets Satan get rid of all Job’s belongings except Job himself. Then he lost everything (animals, servants, children). At the end of chapter one, Job expresses his pain but also his total respect for God.

Rabbi Herschel is someone who commented on Job. He was serious and believed in anything. The only other serious commentary I've ever read on it was by Carl Jung, but he was a total unbeliever who basically said to try to kind of brush the man off, or tell him, in effect, "whatever". Herschel, at least in literature, is related to the person who wrote "Man's Search for Meaning". Victor Frankel. They were both Hebrew writers of the twentieth century.

 

[JLG]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Schacter

Herschel Schacter (October 10, 1917 – March 21, 2013) was an American Orthodox rabbi and chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations.[
Early life
Schacter was born in Brownsville, Brooklyn, the youngest of 10 siblings. His parents immigrated to the US from Poland. His father, Pincus, was a seventh-generation shochet, or ritual slaughterer; his mother, the former Miriam Schimmelman, was a real estate manager.
His education included Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin, Mesivta Torah Vodaath, and Yeshiva College.[3]
Schacter was protege of Chabad rabbi Yisroel Jacobson, and a student of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik.[4] He earned a bachelor’s degree from Yeshiva University in New York City in 1938 and semikhah (rabbinic ordination) from the Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary in 1941.
Career
He spent about a year as a pulpit rabbi in Stamford, Connecticut before enlisting in the Army in 1942.
During World War II, he was a chaplain in the Third Army's VIII Corps[5] and was the first US Army Chaplain to enter and participate in the liberation of the Buchenwald concentration camp on April 11, 1945, barely an hour after it had been liberated by George Patton's troops. Schacter remained at Buchenwald for months, tending to survivors and leading religious services. One of the children whom he personally rescued from the camp was then 7-year old Yisrael Meir Lau, who grew up to become the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel. Later he aided in the resettlement of displaced persons, one of whom was teenaged Elie Wiesel, one of some thousand Jewish orphans liberated that day. He was discharged from the Army with the rank of captain.[6]
Schacter was the rabbi of the Mosholu Jewish Center in the Bronx from 1947 till it closed in 1999.[7]
In 1956, he went to the Soviet Union with an American rabbinic delegation as advocate for the rights of Soviet Jews. He also served as an adviser on the subject to President Richard Nixon.[8]

 

[JLG]

Carl Gustav Jung (/jʊŋ/ YUUNG;[21][22] born Karl Gustav Jung, German: [kaʁl ˈjʊŋ]; 26 July 1875 – 6 June 1961), was a Swiss psychiatrist and psychoanalyst who founded analytical psychology. Jung's work has been influential in the fields of psychiatry, anthropology, archaeology, literature, philosophy, psychology[23] and religious studies. Jung worked as a research scientist at the famous Burghölzli hospital, under Eugen Bleuler. During this time, he came to the attention of Sigmund Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis. The two men conducted a lengthy correspondence and collaborated, for a while, on a joint vision of human psychology.
Freud saw the younger Jung as the heir he had been seeking to take forward his "new science" of psychoanalysis and to this end secured his appointment as President of his newly founded International Psychoanalytical Association. Jung's research and personal vision, however, made it impossible for him to follow his older colleague's doctrine and a schism became inevitable. This division was personally painful for Jung and resulted in the establishment of Jung's analytical psychology as a comprehensive system separate from psychoanalysis.
Among the central concepts of analytical psychology is individuation—the lifelong psychological process of differentiation of the self out of each individual's conscious and unconscious elements. Jung considered it to be the main task of human development. He created some of the best known psychological concepts, including synchronicity, archetypal phenomena, the collective unconscious, the psychological complex and extraversion and introversion.
Jung was also an artist, craftsman, builder and a prolific writer. Many of his works were not published until after his death and some are still awaiting publication.

 

[Journeyman]

Gods' word shows us that our suffering is the result of the love our Lord has toward sinners who abuse him in return,

Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; 1Pet.4:12-13

Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction. Isa.48:10

I believe it teaches us about the agony God feels on a daily basis.

 

[soberxp]

Gods' word shows us that our suffering is the result of the love our Lord has toward sinners who abuse him in return,

Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; 1Pet.4:12-13

Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction. Isa.48:10

I believe it teaches us about the agony God feels on a daily basis.

Well said.

 

[JLG]

when we think about the Christians who were persecuted in a very hard way because of the Roman empire as they were considered as a threat but when Christianity became a state religion and beliefs started mixing that's another story!

 

[Journeyman]

The gospel can be perverted by false teaching and faithful believers have been persecuted because of it, but we should consider this also as part of our refinement. Believers have always faced fiery trials for the Lord, so that others might come to know him,

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Mt.5:11-12

and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
Act.5:40-41

 

[JLG]

Right

But coming back to all the examples from the Bible I spoke about on this site, Job didn’t need refinement because according to God there was no one on earth like him. About Daniel we don’t have many events of his life but we know that he kept faithful and going straight away no matter would happen. We can say the same with Samuel, he didn’t pay attention to Eli’s sons or they didn’t influence him to do wrong. Dealing with the kings of Israel and Judah means dealing with people who have power and in this case it perverts everything. All the kings of Israel opposed God and even in the case of the kings of Judah who were among the best, they ended the wrong way so no refinement at all. Dealing with the majority of the Israelites, the majority went the wrong way so also no refinement. Dealing with the apostles, YES, in that case they needed a lot of refinement because they didn’t understand anything about what Jesus told them and this all the time he was with them teaching them and Jesus used a progressive teaching to prepare them.

 

[JLG]

https://themarginaliareview.com/the-book-of-jobs-past-present-and-future-consequences-by-davis-hankins/

In a commentary so far-reaching on a book so contentious, interpreters of Job will doubtless find much to which they object in addition to many new insights. For example, Seow writes, “Given the narrator’s portrayal of God in the Prologue, Job’s responses of faith in 1:21 and 2:10, profound as they may be taken on their own, seem like reflexes of naïve piety. Read in light of the third chapter, one wonders if this simplistic faith might not have been shaken.” He shares this idea of naïve faith with most interpreters throughout history, but one can only wonder how Job’s statements could be seen as naïve within the literary context. Such a naïve reading actually seems possible only apart from the literary context. And to what or whom is this supposedly naïve piety directed? Not to God, for Job describes God with merisms that attribute to God causality that is wholly unprincipled (1:21 — giving and taking; 2:10 — good and evil). Not to his former faith, since 1:5 portrays it as reliant upon God’s principled responses to the world. Not even to his former self, for the tale relates the complete annihilation of all that is initially associated with him. Though they may lack significant substance, Job’s responses are not naïve. They are instead pure assertions of fidelity to nothing but the truth of an experience that has completely altered himself, his world, and his God. Job’s ensuing speeches in the dialogue do not depart from but instead fill out this pure fidelity.

« naive piety, simplistic faith, shaken » opposed to « pure assertions of fidelity to nothing but the truth of an experience that has completely altered himself, his world, and his God » and « pure fidelity »

Thinking that many through history have thought about naive piety and simplistic faith shows to which extent it is impossible to understand the book of Job with an intellectual mind but only with a humble mind. If you don’t keep in mind what god says at the beginning of the book that is « there is no one like him on earth » then you can’t understand the kind of relationship between God and Job which is so strong and powerful with such a confidence ! It seems to be so ridiculous if you don’t open widely your mind then you cqan’t understand how it is sxaid « pure assertions of fidelity… and pure fidelity ». YES if you don’t have PURE FIDELITY you will never understand Job, it is as simple as that !

 

[JLG]

After 41 chapters of tension, how do we not let chapter 42 reinforce a notion of karma or health/wealth theology?

Notice the grace of chapter 42: God wasn’t forced to bless Job, he chose to; God was gracious to the three friends instead of giving them “what they deserved.” Like any book, we have to read everything within it’s context. The whole of Job makes it clear that karma is not God’s operating principle; grace is.

The context is always essential and people often miss important ideas by not taking into account the context. Regarding Job, of course God wasn’t forced to bless Job. The point is Job kept faithful without any discussion and he proved the devil to be a liar at the difference of Adam and Eve .

 

[JLG]

Even in the midst of God’s silence, His presence is with us.

Job wrestled and wrestled with God’s silence in the midst of his suffering. Over 25 times he asked the question “why?” and he continually asked for the opportunity to defend his case before God. Job had entered the fiery furnace of suffering.

Job writes
But he knows the way that I take;
when he has tried me, I shall come out as gold.
11 My foot has held fast to his steps;
I have kept his way and have not turned aside.
12 I have not departed from the commandment of his lips;
I have treasured the words of his mouth more than my portion of food.
~Job 23:10-12

And he kept fighting because when you stop fighting you are dead even if you are still alive ! Of course, it is easier to take artificial paradise, but it is only a dead end ! And society encourages artificial paradise ! Of course sometimes pain and suffering are very hard to deal with especially when it keeps going and it isn’t always easy to get rid of the source ! ​

 

[JLG]

I Give Up
4 # Short Commentary and Lesson from Job 6.8-10

Job was filled with anguish. He knew that he was blameless and full of integrity. And yet his suffering was unyielding. God seemed to be against him and he didn't know why. He had been betrayed by his fair-weather friends who turned against him when the heat was on (vv.15-17), In his pain, Job wanted to give up, be released from his circumstances, and die.

When the stress of life overwhelms despite your efforts to live the kind of life that pleases God, you must not think that he is no longer on your side. We may not comprehend the ways of God (Ecclesiastes (11.5) or figure out why he allows certain things to happen. However, we can be confident that in the end God himself will bring us out of despair and make us complete, steady, strong, and firm (1 Peter 5.10).

Well maybe it has something to do with the quality of our communication with God ! Today’s world is more and more complicated and it is quite easy to lose our way and our mind ! Better check our communication with God before we get into trouble because if it is poor it won’t help ! Better build it up when everything is good then we may have something helpful in case we need it ! Like any kind of communication, it is something we need to improve constantly by studying the Bible and thinking of it in real life situations ! Imagine job enable to pray God and enable to complain ! It doesn’t work ! No way !

 

[JLG]

The Light of God
15 # Short Commentary and Lesson from Job 37.19-24

The great German teacher Neander once said, "I see before us a deep abyss, but above it shines a bright light. It is the dawn, or is it the evening twilight?" Today we stand before the godless abyss of our society. The clouds of unbelief are rolled back and we begin to see a glimpse of the light of God.

Does the light grow dimmer with each passing day because of our sins? Or does it become brighter, exposing our hidden sins? May our eyes be opened to the brilliance of God's glory and his compassion on us.

For those who trust this society, there is no escape! But the more this society goes into the pit, the more we get closer to God’s new world! We don’t know when but it doesn’t really matter! What matters is to get ready, to prepare our mind and our heart and not to do like the Israelites when they left Egypt and when they made a golden calf and God wanted to get rid of them! And he would have done it if MOSES was not there to calm don God! We must never forget that when things change completely, we need adaptation! So better prepare now and get ready before the STORM!

 

[Journeyman]

Right

But coming back to all the examples from the Bible I spoke about on this site, Job didn’t need refinement because according to God there was no one on earth like him. About Daniel we don’t have many events of his life but we know that he kept faithful and going straight away no matter would happen.

Job is about being conformed to Christs' image,

Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. Eze.14:13-14

 

[JLG]

Yes, but i'm just saying that we need good examples of faithfulness and the more details we get about their life the better! Unfortunately we don't often have many details! But of course, if it had been possible the Bible would have been bigger!

 

[JLG]

https://www.gracefulabandon.com/6-lessons-need-learn-job/

- Walk well before the Lord.

If we don’t walk well before the lord, there is no hope. We just have to look around us, when people don’t believe in God and thus don’t follow his commandments, they can only try to enjoy themselves and they get old and what’s left? Nothing!

 

[Journeyman]

Yes, but i'm just saying that we need good examples of faithfulness and the more details we get about their life the better! Unfortunately we don't often have many details! But of course, if it had been possible the Bible would have been bigger!

Well, we're all human. We all go through things, bearing whatever cross the Lord lays on us. Some more difficult than others, but trusting in God no matter what.
The point is being confirmed to Christs' image. Joseph in Egypt is a great example.

 

[JLG]

yes, Joseph is also a great example and each good example is profitable and more profitable because there are few. The apostles spent three years with Jesus and they had big trouble to understand him even if his teaching was progressive. When we see human society today human beings are really far away from looking like Jesus, even a pale image seems difficult to reach and each time it's worse!

 

[Journeyman]

He said it would get dark out so lets keep the light burning.

But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. “Now therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones.” And he comforted them and spoke kindly to them. Gen.50:20-21

Jesus did this for sinners who treated him terribly. That knocks me out.

 

[JLG]

Well, God used Joseph to save his whole family and Joseph understood it perfectly. Moreover, when he went to Egypt, he was blessed to a great extend!

Jesus was on a mission to save humanity and counterbalance Adam’s sin, a perfect life for a perfect life and thus restore balance! But he condemned the religious leaders because they saw his powerful works and miracles but they rejected him so striking Jesus could be forgiven but the sin against holy spirit wasn’t, isn’t and won’t be forgiven! When you don’t know or when you know means a different situation! In the case of Paul, he thought he was right so his mind was opened so he could do what was right and he did an incredible work for God afterwards!