Acts /1cor 12, 13, 14 baptsim in the HG and gifts of the Spirit

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Mar 14, 2011
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#41
I am late. Have not seen this. not sure how I missed it.

I think it may be how you interpret terms. The bible says we are baptised by the Holy Spirit. It also says we are anointed with the Holy Spirit.

The word baptise means to place into, or to immerse. The word anoint means to pour on, or in.

In my view, The baptism of the spirit is the act of God baptizing us unto the death and burial of Christ (rom 6) and also into the body of Christ (1 cor 12) Where we are united with the death of Christ and the body of Christ With Christ being the head. (in the same way the children of Israel were baptized into Moses in the cloud, or United as one unit With Moses being the head) The baptism of the HS is where we are washed and made as white as snow. the result being that we are born again, or made new, and justified in the spirit (Titus 3: 5, the washing and renewal of the HS, where the washingn would be a direct result of the baptism of the HS. )

The HS coming into us would be the anointing of the spirit. An example would be on the OT law,, where the High priest or priest was anointed with oil in the process of being set up as priests. As the oill is poured on the new priest, the Holy Spirit is poured onto (or in) the new believer, where he is sealed.

Ther gifts, (whatever they may be) would be a result of the anointing of the spirit.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#42
I'm sorry notuptome,

the bible does not say the "three gifts would end". and you have not shown that to be Biblical. The context of the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit and the Context of the " Gifts of the Holy Spirit" are spoken in scriptures as events for the Believer and gifts to the Church.
Sorry no but stubborn yes.

Gifts are given to the church the body of Christ. There is no sense in construing these gifts to be only in individual believers. Here I think is the heart of Pentecostalism and charismatic thinking. It is all about the individual and not about the whole.

The body of Christ the church is made up of people from diverse languages and cultures. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit that unifies and promotes fellowship and edification across these differences. Gifts of the Holy Spirit do not divide but unify the body of Christ.

I am still attempting to discern how one can have an incorrect knowledge of Holy Spirit baptism which is regeneration and Holy Spirit filling or anointing. I am very troubled by this as the Holy Spirit is a witness with our spirit that we are the Lord's.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
L

LaurenTM

Guest
#43
Lauren: If you will CAREFULLY read my posts you will see that I did not contradict myself. At any rate, I did not contradict myself but if you cannot recognize that then so be it.

Samuel it is so easy for you to make that statement

but you did in fact contradict yourself

you have absolutely no biblical proof for your statement that the disciples received a different salvation

you tend to make overreaching statements, as you did in another thread, that just because you say something, it must be true

that will not work with most people

and it does not work with me

it is also noteworthy, that you then try to make it seem the person who disagrees with you is wrong because they do not recognize how right you are

that gets old real fast
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,906
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#44
The apostles were saved before they ever received the indwelling Holy Spirit...John 14:17 the Spirit of truth, for He dwells WITH YOU and shall BE IN YOU. The apostles were saved through the word that Jesus spoke to them BEFORE receiving the Holy Spirit.
that is is opinionated because in John 20:22 "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:".

this was after the Resurrection and Paul was saved well after the accent of Christ . The Holy Spirit is the one who help one to Believe for salvation Then The Holy Spirit empower to be a witness . This is very clear in scriptures

John 20:22 Disciples saved

Luke 24:49 "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."


this was said to the them after they were saved.

Acts 1:8 "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

said to them as HE was taken ( Jesus ) up in a cloud They were already saved yet the empowerment had not happened.
Acts 2:4 the Holy Spirit fill them. they were already saved.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,906
2,743
113
#45
Sorry no but stubborn yes.

Gifts are given to the church the body of Christ. There is no sense in construing these gifts to be only in individual believers. Here I think is the heart of Pentecostalism and charismatic thinking. It is all about the individual and not about the whole.

The body of Christ the church is made up of people from diverse languages and cultures. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit that unifies and promotes fellowship and edification across these differences. Gifts of the Holy Spirit do not divide but unify the body of Christ.

I am still attempting to discern how one can have an incorrect knowledge of Holy Spirit baptism which is regeneration and Holy Spirit filling or anointing. I am very troubled by this as the Holy Spirit is a witness with our spirit that we are the Lord's.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
that is your issue you speak of " Pentecostalism /CHARISMATICS WHILE NOT ADDRESSING THE BIBLICAL points to this topic. Nor did i even suggest that the gifts to be only in individual believers. 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 does that .

I too think your opinion of what is "incorrect" in context to the Holy Spirit baptism and the gifts recorded in 1cor 12, 13, 14. You continue to ignore these scriptures
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#46
Sorry no but stubborn yes.

Gifts are given to the church the body of Christ. There is no sense in construing these gifts to be only in individual believers. Here I think is the heart of Pentecostalism and charismatic thinking. It is all about the individual and not about the whole.

The body of Christ the church is made up of people from diverse languages and cultures. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit that unifies and promotes fellowship and edification across these differences. Gifts of the Holy Spirit do not divide but unify the body of Christ.

I am still attempting to discern how one can have an incorrect knowledge of Holy Spirit baptism which is regeneration and Holy Spirit filling or anointing. I am very troubled by this as the Holy Spirit is a witness with our spirit that we are the Lord's.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Sons, daughters, the aged & bondservants shows individual believers. So does this:

1Cor12:4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

I can't seem to understand WHY you said that.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,906
2,743
113
#47
I am late. Have not seen this. not sure how I missed it.

I think it may be how you interpret terms. The bible says we are baptised by the Holy Spirit. It also says we are anointed with the Holy Spirit.

The word baptise means to place into, or to immerse. The word anoint means to pour on, or in.

In my view, The baptism of the spirit is the act of God baptizing us unto the death and burial of Christ (rom 6) and also into the body of Christ (1 cor 12) Where we are united with the death of Christ and the body of Christ With Christ being the head. (in the same way the children of Israel were baptized into Moses in the cloud, or United as one unit With Moses being the head) The baptism of the HS is where we are washed and made as white as snow. the result being that we are born again, or made new, and justified in the spirit (Titus 3: 5, the washing and renewal of the HS, where the washingn would be a direct result of the baptism of the HS. )

The HS coming into us would be the anointing of the spirit. An example would be on the OT law,, where the High priest or priest was anointed with oil in the process of being set up as priests. As the oill is poured on the new priest, the Holy Spirit is poured onto (or in) the new believer, where he is sealed.

Ther gifts, (whatever they may be) would be a result of the anointing of the spirit.
the anointing is not the Holy Spirit, the anointing is done by the HS. this is a verb not a noun. the action of anointing which is done for many reasons still is not the same as " gifting " or baptism of the Holy Spirit remember John's gospel. Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Ghost and who is this for? all
 
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Mar 14, 2011
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#48
the anointing is not the holy Spirit the anointing is done by the HS. this is a verb not a noun. the action of anointing which is done for many reasons still is not the same as " gifting " or baptism of the Holy Spirit remember John's gospel. Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Ghost and who is this for? all

I see it different, The baptism of the HS is a one time event, It is the act of God baptising us into the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Itis like baptizng a person in water, Or baptizing I dying a peace of cloth, to change its appearance (in the greek, a baptizer was actually a person who dyed clothing) It is us being washed, and having a change of state, from being stained with sin, to being dyed with the blood of Christ who washes us white as snow.

Rom 6 says we are BAPTIZED into his death, and BAPTIZED into his burial, 1 Cor 12 tells us we are BAPTIZED into Christ, This is all done by God, not in some water ceremony, It is the act of God immersing us into those things, or placing us into union with them. To me, this is the baptism of the spirit. Which could only be done once Christ left.

The HS entering us would be the same as anointing (I am using the OT example of a priest. who was washed (baptized) then anointed (holy oil)

The gifting, as I see it, Is not from the baptism, or the anointing per say, But are the result of the HS being in us and empowering us with these gifts.


Hope this makes sense
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#49
It's a proven fact if an individual has a particular slant against an entire "christian" denomination, there will also be as huge a theological slant in their doctrine. Not an insult, just a fact.
 
H

HisHolly

Guest
#50
Jesus breathed on them and they received the Holy Spirit but then said when He comes upon you you shall receive power .. The Spirit of the Lord is upon me.. He said that even tho He was created by the Spirit.. He still had to come upon Him
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#51
hmm. I thought we were here to have a friendly debate, not attack each other..

Not everyone is so set on believing their denomination that they will fight tooth and nail for every doctrine, Many people go to a denominational church because they like how they do church service, and thats all.

a good thing to do would be to stop assuming we know what a person believes based on what denomination they go to.. Sadly, as has been shown. Most of the time when we do this, we are wrong.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,906
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#52

I see it different, The baptism of the HS is a one time event, It is the act of God baptising us into the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Itis like baptizng a person in water, Or baptizing I dying a peace of cloth, to change its appearance (in the greek, a baptizer was actually a person who dyed clothing) It is us being washed, and having a change of state, from being stained with sin, to being dyed with the blood of Christ who washes us white as snow.

Rom 6 says we are BAPTIZED into his death, and BAPTIZED into his burial, 1 Cor 12 tells us we are BAPTIZED into Christ, This is all done by God, not in some water ceremony, It is the act of God immersing us into those things, or placing us into union with them. To me, this is the baptism of the spirit. Which could only be done once Christ left.

The HS entering us would be the same as anointing (I am using the OT example of a priest. who was washed (baptized) then anointed (holy oil)

The gifting, as I see it, Is not from the baptism, or the anointing per say, But are the result of the HS being in us and empowering us with these gifts.


Hope this makes sense
the context of rom 6 is water baptism which we do see done in the book of acts.

the work of the Holy Spirit contextually we see : salvation , empowerment , and gifting;

we are saved once :
we are baptized once in water and once by Jesus in the Holy Spirit .
But the work of the Holy Spirit has not stop. He is still calling and saving and HE is still filling and empowering.
The individual believer receives the Holy for salvation : the church is gifted by the same Holy Spirit which is spoken in 1cor 12, 13, 14. the issue with some is they think the gifting has stopped yet no scriptures in context to prove that claim.
 
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Aug 15, 2009
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#53
17He also confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
18Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan,
As the portion of your inheritance.”
19When they were only a few in number,
Very few, and strangers in it,
20And they wandered about from nation to nation,
And from one kingdom to another people,
21He permitted no man to oppress them,
And He reproved kings for their sakes, saying,
22“Do not touch My anointed ones,
And do My prophets no harm.”

According to the God of the OT, Israel, God's chosen people, was His anointed. This is a favorite Pentecostal saying, & I should know, lol.

We Pentecostals still believe this scripture is true for the church, because we are the Sons of God, called His chosen, called His people, & the prophecy of Joel confirms God anointing the church for ministry. If you read carefully, Moses himself confirms it.

Before somebody says only the Jews were baptized, we need to remember in Acts, Romans & Samaritans both were baptized in the Spirit.

We can only conclude that all christians are God's anointed, whether they know it or not.
:)
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,906
2,743
113
#54
hmm. I thought we were here to have a friendly debate, not attack each other..

Not everyone is so set on believing their denomination that they will fight tooth and nail for every doctrine, Many people go to a denominational church because they like how they do church service, and thats all.

a good thing to do would be to stop assuming we know what a person believes based on what denomination they go to.. Sadly, as has been shown. Most of the time when we do this, we are wrong.
as far as i see you are just fine:)

as i said before will say it again you do not have to agree with me :) but the topic has nothing to do with a denomination. I have given or I have tried to give as much scriptural reference as i can as you can see some statements have interjected a different subject which is ok :)
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
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#55
hmm. I thought we were here to have a friendly debate, not attack each other..

Not everyone is so set on believing their denomination that they will fight tooth and nail for every doctrine, Many people go to a denominational church because they like how they do church service, and thats all.

a good thing to do would be to stop assuming we know what a person believes based on what denomination they go to.. Sadly, as has been shown. Most of the time when we do this, we are wrong.
Uummm..... who or what are you talking about "attacking? I don't see anything.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#56
the context of rom 6 is water baptism which we do see done in the book of acts.
I do not see it this way, I see romans 6 as a bunch of people (you and I and all who are saved) And two Objects (Christ's Death and his burial) interacted on by the verb Baptize (which is not even a native English word, but a translation of the Greek word Baptizo) or in other words, the subjects (people) are baptized into the objects (death and burial) and no water is involved.

and because we have been united with Christ in his death and his burial (these events took place when we were baptized into them) just as Christ was raised, We should walk in newness of life, Not in our old ways.

the work of the holy Spirit contextually we see : salvation , empowerment , and gifting;

I agree 100 %, Amen,,

we are saved once :
we are baptized once in water and once by Jesus in the Holy Spirit .
True, but we are not "saved" because we were baptized in water, We are not "empowered" to walk in newness of life because we were baptised in water.

We are SAVED (washed) because of the baptism of the spirit (see also titus 3: 5)
and we are empowered to walk in newness of life because of the baptism of the spirit (see romans 6)


and more importantly We are secure, because we were baptized into christ (1 cor 13)

at least that is how I see it.

But the work of the Holy Spirit has not stop. He is still calling and saving and HE is still filling and empowering.
The individual believer receives the Holy for salvation : the church is gifted by the same Holy Spirit which is spoken in 1cor 12, 13, 14. the issue with some is they think the gifting has stopped yet no scriptures in context to prove that claim.

I will not get into a debate on gifting, I feel it is unfruitful, and has caused much if the infighting and attack this past year and a half (especially since the so called "hypergrace" discussion on name it and claim it and gifting is concerned"is what got a bunch of people up in arms)

however, I agree, The HS is continuing to work, in each believer, Paul told us, we can ask for more gifts if we desire, It does not mean the HS will give us a gift. But we can ask, that means gifts can come and go even in a believer. Amen!!
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,258
17,567
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#57
as far as i see you are just fine:)

as i said before will say it again you do not have to agree with me :) but the topic has nothing to do with a denomination. I have given or I have tried to give as much scriptural reference as i can as you can see some statements have interjected a different subject which is ok :)

its all good. I was just commenting on a few posts I saw from others..

Yes, We can agree to disagree,, and still be brothers.. This is not a salvic issue.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,906
2,743
113
#58
17He also confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
18Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan,
As the portion of your inheritance.”
19When they were only a few in number,
Very few, and strangers in it,
20And they wandered about from nation to nation,
And from one kingdom to another people,
21He permitted no man to oppress them,
And He reproved kings for their sakes, saying,
22“Do not touch My anointed ones,
And do My prophets no harm.”

According to the God of the OT, Israel, God's chosen people, was His anointed. This is a favorite Pentecostal saying, & I should know, lol.

We Pentecostals still believe this scripture is true for the church, because we are the Sons of God, called His chosen, called His people, & the prophecy of Joel confirms God anointing the church for ministry. If you read carefully, Moses himself confirms it.

Before somebody says only the Jews were baptized, we need to remember in Acts, Romans & Samaritans both were baptized in the Spirit.

We can only conclude that all christians are God's anointed, whether they know it or not.
:)

lol thank you for your input Stephens63. I'm not concerned about a favorite Pentecostal saying lol :) . Anointing, and Anointed the context of each word has to be adhered to.
the word " Anointed" in Hebrew depending on the context means :[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]mashiyach which is speaking of the one to come " Jesus". exd 29:2 in this verse the "priest" is the anointed .[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] it also means to Smear on as in 1sam 16:13 as the oil was done to David [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] Isa 61:1 is prophecy in context to the Lord Jesus Christ here the context is "the Anointed" = [/FONT]mashiyach

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] in the New Testament this same quote of Isa 61:1 by Jesus found in Luke 4:18 "Anointed " Greek is = [/FONT]chriō
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] which is the "[/FONT]consecrating Jesus to the Messianic office, and furnishing him with the necessary powers for its administration"
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] "The Anointing" [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] in the old Testament in context speaks of oil used for [/FONT]consecrated person or thing it is a noun . Edx 25:

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] In the New Testament found in James 5:14 it is a verb Greek "[/FONT]aleiphō" which is to anoint

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] this is the context of James 5:14 but it changes in this verse [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]1 john 2:27 [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]"[/FONT]But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] the word " anointing" in Greek is = [/FONT]chrisma "[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif](figuratively) the special endowment ("chrism") of the Holy Spirit:—anointing, unction."[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] the word " anointing" is figurative noun in 1 john it is not " The Anointed" = in context to Christ. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] if you look at anointed , anointing , in both Old and New Testament as the scriptures present them . both terms are either and action of identifying a person i.e. king, set a part for a task. or figurative of an action by the Holy Spirit.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] baptism in the Greek Matt 3:7 = [/FONT]baptisma which is immersion, submersion the context of this was water .

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] in Acts 2:38 the word is " baptizo " [/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]to overwhelm this is in context to the Holy Spirit not water. this is the parallel scripture with John chapter 1:33 baptizo a verb has nothing to do with water in these two verses nor is it figuratively. [/FONT]

 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,906
2,743
113
#59
I do not see it this way, I see romans 6 as a bunch of people (you and I and all who are saved) And two Objects (Christ's Death and his burial) interacted on by the verb Baptize (which is not even a native English word, but a translation of the Greek word Baptizo) or in other words, the subjects (people) are baptized into the objects (death and burial) and no water is involved.

and because we have been united with Christ in his death and his burial (these events took place when we were baptized into them) just as Christ was raised, We should walk in newness of life, Not in our old ways.



I agree 100 %, Amen,,


True, but we are not "saved" because we were baptized in water, We are not "empowered" to walk in newness of life because we were baptised in water.

We are SAVED (washed) because of the baptism of the spirit (see also titus 3: 5)
and we are empowered to walk in newness of life because of the baptism of the spirit (see romans 6)


and more importantly We are secure, because we were baptized into christ (1 cor 13)

at least that is how I see it.



I will not get into a debate on gifting, I feel it is unfruitful, and has caused much if the infighting and attack this past year and a half (especially since the so called "hypergrace" discussion on name it and claim it and gifting is concerned"is what got a bunch of people up in arms)

however, I agree, The HS is continuing to work, in each believer, Paul told us, we can ask for more gifts if we desire, It does not mean the HS will give us a gift. But we can ask, that means gifts can come and go even in a believer. Amen!!

a lot being said here: 1 never said baptism in water saves ok LOL. What I believe is the bible sayes that water baptism and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit are two different things in water is done by the believer after they are saved. the empowering of the Holy Spirit which water has nothing to do with it is By the Holy Spirit and Jesus who is doing the baptizing.

as far as the gifts go your opinion is not one i share :) I think the bible topic of the gifts of the Holy Spirit spoken in 1cor chapter 12, 13, 14 are valid and relevant for today and the " Church" today too. And I think that the bible encourages all saved Believers to desire and seek to be used by the Holy Spirit as HE see fit for the betterment of all :)
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#60
a lot being said here: 1 never said baptism in water saves ok LOL.
Forgive me if you thought I said you did, I am sorry. I was just making a statement.

What I believe is the bible sayes that water baptism and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit are two different things in water is done by the believer after they are saved. the empowering of the Holy Spirit which water has nothing to do with it is By the Holy Spirit and Jesus who is doing the baptizing.
Agree :eek:

as far as the gifts go your opinion is not one i share :) I think the bible topic of the gifts of the Holy Spirit spoken in 1cor chapter 12, 13, 14 are valid and relevant for today and the " Church" today too. And I think that the bible encourages all saved Believers to desire and seek to be used by the Holy Spirit as HE see fit for the betterment of all :)
Did not know I gave my opinion :p Just said it was a debate I did not want to get into.. lol

I to believe the HS gifts as he desires, in order to do his will..