Acts /1cor 12, 13, 14 baptsim in the HG and gifts of the Spirit

[samuel23]

Lauren, I said that we are all saved by faith in God through Jesus...SO THERE IS NO DIFFERENT SALVATION. On the other hand the EXPERIENCE the apostles had was different from our experience in that they were CLEAN through the word Jesus spoke to them(saved) even though at that time they did not have the indwelling Spirit. On the other hand, we are not saved until we actually are indwelt by the Spirit. What gets old is your judgmental attitude toward me personally...back off, just read the posts and compare them to scripture, I don't need to hear your personal opinion of men.

 

[stonesoffire]

the context of rom 6 is water baptism which we do see done in the book of acts.

the work of the holy Spirit contextually we see : salvation , empowerment , and gifting;

we are saved once :
we are baptized once in water and once by Jesus in the Holy Spirit .
But the work of the Holy Spirit has not stop. He is still calling and saving and HE is still filling and empowering.
The individual believer receives the Holy for salvation : the church is gifted by the same Holy Spirit which is spoken in 1cor 12, 13, 14. the issue with some is they think the gifting has stopped yet no scriptures in context to prove that claim.

Amen!

Act 2:39 For the promise isunto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[LaurenTM]

Lauren, I said that we are all saved by faith in God through Jesus...SO THERE IS NO DIFFERENT SALVATION. On the other hand the EXPERIENCE the apostles had was different from our experience in that they were CLEAN through the word Jesus spoke to them(saved) even though at that time they did not have the indwelling Spirit. On the other hand, we are not saved until we actually are indwelt by the Spirit. What gets old is your judgmental attitude toward me personally...back off, just read the posts and compare them to scripture, I don't need to hear your personal opinion of men.

could you stay on topic?

I am not the topic

your post regarding your opinion that the disciples were saved differently from everyone else is what I was replying to

and I maintain my view of your post

you posted this:

For crying out loud! Does not anyone in these forums ever actually read the bible? .

that is always going to be a questionable response

you cannot determine other people's responses for them

I don't have a judgmental attitude for you personally...however, I certainly do judge that your interpretation of the disciples' salvation is not biblical

 

[LaurenTM]

Hi SG: How could the apostles be saved without the indwelling Spirit? Jesus said they were clean through His word.

you appear to be stating here, that you believe the disciples were saved because Jesus said they were clean through the word spoken to them

is that right?

However there are things that happened with the apostles that are unique to them, the apostles were saved without having the indwelling Holy Spirit

the above ^^^^ really needs further explanation as scripture does not say they had a unique experience and scripture does not say you are saved without the Holy Spirit

what is your source for this belief?

 

[CS1]

could you stay on topic?

I am not the topic

your post regarding your opinion that the disciples were saved differently from everyone else is what I was replying to

and I maintain my view of your post

you posted this:



that is always going to be a questionable response

you cannot determine other people's responses for them

I don't have a judgmental attitude for you personally...however, I certainly do judge that your interpretation of the disciples' salvation is not biblical

ok please let move on and not address Samuel or he you. thank you for your input

 

[CS1]

you appear to be stating here, that you believe the disciples were saved because Jesus said they were clean through the word spoken to them

is that right?




the above ^^^^ really needs further explanation as scripture does not say they had a unique experience and scripture does not say you are saved without the Holy Spirit

what is your source for this belief?

good question to ask ones source

 

[Ariel82]

I would like to have a biblical Discussion on these two topic. without insults , false narratives , and strawmen created by both side for and against the subject. I would like to cover both what I think the bible and much study i have done over the many years. You do not have to agree with me but, I would like for you all to please provide contextual meaning to your response. If this is not possiable then you are free not to post. I accept all questions anyone will ask but I will not hear rudness or insults .

Baptisim of Holy Spirit :
I would like to study the powerful experience for the super natural growth on the "church" in the apostolic and post-apostolic ages of the "church". Which has been the principal cause of mighty revivals that have swept the world since the turn of the 20th century. I am not suggesting, teaching, or attempting to exalt the baptism of the Holy Spirit or the gifts HE gives to the "Church" above the Redemptive Work of Christ. The # 1 Work of the Holy Spirit is exalting Christ (John 3:16).

the greatest promise to the World is " whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life". but the greatest promise to the "Church" is: "But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you" (Acts 1:8)

The Baptizer in the Holy Spirit is none other than our Lord Jesus Christ

The Holy Spirit is what empowers the "Church".

What the baptism of the Holy Spirit is NOT:

1. It is not " The Second Definite Work of Grace" I have heard some use this term but I have not seen it in the bible nor have more qualfied teachers than I. If there is second then maybe a 3rd or 4th too? I believe in the continual growth in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Pet 3:18)

2. it is not the Second Blessing again if there is a second why not a 3rd or 4th? I do not believe this to be a biblical expression used in the bible.
3. it is not Sanctification That is long topic and I will just say that right now but "Sanctification" is part of the Chritians daily
life. (LV 27:14)
4. it is not the New Birth The Baptisim with the Holy Spirit is subsequent to, and distinct from , The Lords Regenerative Work.

"The Baptisim with the Holy Spirit" the scriptural name for the Holy Spirit coming into the lives of men & women who are Christians .Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Acts 1:5 The name of this expireance in the Bible as a normitive is " The Baptisim with the Holy Ghost/Spirit".

The apostles were converted under the ministry of Jesus (John 1:35-50; Luke 10:20; John 13:10,11 15:3) they were told to wait (tarry) and were instantly filled with the Spirit about two years later (luke 24:49;Acts 1:13,14; 2:1-4)
The samaritans Acts 8:5-8,12 Acts 8:14-17 records thier expirence
The 12 men at Ephesus who were believers Acts 19:2

Some teach and believe that the Holy Spirit was poured out once for all on the Day of Pentecost, and we not expect nothing more. The prophecy of joel has been fulfilled. But is that what happened?

Peter in quoting Joel 2:29, did not say: "Now is fulfilled that which was spoken by the prophet Joel".

If he had, there would be nothing more to expect. The prophecy would be fulfilled. But What Peter did say:
"This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" Peter than explained this promise was for all men and women not just those in the upper room.

I will stop here and pick up soon give time for questions and comments

I read this like 5 times and still feel like I am missing something.

I am going to restate what I think you are saying and see if you can help me to understand your stance on the topic....

1. The topic is about the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

2.you make a distinction between the redemptive work of Christ into eternal life and the promise to the church which is the Holy spirit.

3. Don't know your reference to your 1st point about the assertion that some believe it's the 2nd blessing/work of grace. I don't know what doctrines/teachings on this subject you are referring to, just that you reject that premise.

4. Why do you say it's not the new birth? What is the new birth and when do you believe it occurs?

5. When do you believe the baptism of the Holy spirit occurs in the present day?

6. What are your thoughts on the difference between being baptized with the Holy spirit and how the Holy Spirit worked in the lives of the old testament prophets. For example it is said that the Holy Spirit caused John the Baptist to jump in the womb when a pregnant Mary showed up with Jesus.

 

[CS1]

I read this like 5 times and still feel like I am missing something.

I am going to restate what I think you are saying and see if you can help me to understand your stance on the topic....

1. The topic is about the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

2.you make a distinction between the redemptive work of Christ into eternal life and the promise to the church which is the Holy spirit.

3. Don't know your reference to your 1st point about the assertion that some believe it's the 2nd blessing/work of grace. I don't know what doctrines/teachings on this subject you are referring to, just that you reject that premise.

4. Why do you say it's not the new birth? What is the new birth and when do you believe it occurs?

5. When do you believe the baptism of the Holy spirit occurs in the present day?

6. What are your thoughts on the difference between being baptized with the Holy spirit and how the Holy Spirit worked in the lives of the old testament prophets. For example it is said that the Holy Spirit caused John the Baptist to jump in the womb when a pregnant Mary showed up with Jesus.

ok thank you for your questions:

I have addressed many of them in past post but; I shall try again the post is speaking of two things

1 Baptism in the Holy Spirit and 2. the Gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1 cor 12, 13, 14 chapters.
some groups refer to the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as the "second Blessing" " second work" both of these terms are concepts but I do n ot see them supported in scripture .

2. the work of Salvation and the empowering of the Holy Spirit both done by the same Holy Spirit but provide distinction
the Holy Spirit creates goddly sorrow leads to salvation the same Holy Spirit empowers believer to be a witness.

4. the new Birth is when you are saved.
5. the " Baptism in the Holy Spirit " can happen when you get saved or after I am not saying YOU do not receive the Holy Spirit when your saved YOU DO. but the empowerment can happen then or after. this is seen in the Book of Acts and in the Old Testament too.

5. The baptism in the Holy Spirit happens today when the believer ask Jesus to Baptize them. because as John chapter 1 says Jesus is the one who does the baptizing

6.

one example is Samson God was with Him yet the Spirit of thee Lord came on him and he did mighty works and then we read the Spirit of the Lord would depart, something happen that caused one to know that God was doing something special yet Samson knew God was always with him that is faith. you see this in Elijah , David, and many more before the day of Pentecost only Kings, Priest , rulers , Prophets and Judges had the "Spirit of The Lord" come on them. the Prophet Joel SAID read in Acts 2:16-21

the action prior to resurrection of Christ the Holy Spirit worked as HE has always as you have noted what John the baptist did in the womb of his mother Elizabeth. But the normative of what the Holy Spirit does after Jesus rose again is what the Prophet Joel said as God ordained him to speak. Peter confirmed that on this day that was fullfilled

 

[Ariel82]

Thanks for the clarification. I found 5 very helpful because I was concerned about what you meant.

However I am not sure I agree with the statement "The baptism in the Holy Spirit happens today when the believer ask Jesus to Baptize them. "

I believe it happens when God wills it and for a purpose. God empowers is for a purpose and a mission not by our will or request but by His. The gentiles in Acts didn't ask for it but were baptized by the Holy spirit and spoke in tongues before being baptized by water.

Your post does still concern me because it could be easily misunderstood.

The concept that you can be saved but not baptized by the Holy Spirit, how does that work?

I always believed that God gives us the Holy spirit and all things we need into salvation. The Holy spirit sanctified us by teaching us wisdom and self control daily.

But I don't understand what you mean by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. How is that different from sanctification?

I feel like it might have to do with being empowered by the Holy spirit with spiritual gifts?

 

[CS1]

Thanks for the clarification. I found 5 very helpful because I was concerned about what you meant.

However I am not sure I agree with the statement "The baptism in the Holy Spirit happens today when the believer ask Jesus to Baptize them. "

I believe it happens when God wills it and for a purpose. God empowers is for a purpose and a mission not by our will or request but by His. The gentiles in Acts didn't ask for it but were baptized by the Holy spirit and spoke in tongues before being baptized by water.

Your post does still concern me because it would be easily misunderstood.

The concept that you can be saved but not baptized by the Holy Spirit, how does that work?

I always believed that God gives us the Holy spirit and all things we need into salvation. The Holy spirit sanctified us by teaching us wisdom and self control daily.

But I don't understand what you mean by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. How is that different from sanctification?

I feel like it might have to do with being empowered by the Holy spirit with spiritual gifts?

ok the reason why I think this is because in each time the baptism of the Holy Spirit is recorded in scripture( New testament) this happened immediately after salvation or shortly after salvation. And in each recording they the receivers were told to receive or had been waiting to receive. Sanctification is a process that the believer goes through until they die or Jesus Comes. The Empowering of the Holy Spirit helps in this process but the Holy Spirit does many things for the christian :
John 14:26 in this verse the Holy Spirit does what?
1. Teach you
2. bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you( Jesus)
John chapter 16:13 called "the Spirit of Truth"

1. he will guide you into all truth
2. He shall glorify Jesus

he is the Comforter , in Acts HE is the Power from on high He is the one the 120 were waiting for after they were saved.

 

[CS1]

Thanks for the clarification. I found 5 very helpful because I was concerned about what you meant.

However I am not sure I agree with the statement "The baptism in the Holy Spirit happens today when the believer ask Jesus to Baptize them. "

I believe it happens when God wills it and for a purpose. God empowers is for a purpose and a mission not by our will or request but by His. The gentiles in Acts didn't ask for it but were baptized by the Holy spirit and spoke in tongues before being baptized by water.

Your post does still concern me because it could be easily misunderstood.

The concept that you can be saved but not baptized by the Holy Spirit, how does that work?

I always believed that God gives us the Holy spirit and all things we need into salvation. The Holy spirit sanctified us by teaching us wisdom and self control daily.

But I don't understand what you mean by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. How is that different from sanctification?

I feel like it might have to do with being empowered by the Holy spirit with spiritual gifts?

many put into both categories baptism( with water) and baptism in the Holy Spirit. the term "baptism in the Holy Spirit "
in context as the Book of Acts and the gospel of John 1st chapter present it is to be in-clothed with of cloaked with the Holy Spirit the Greek word is Baptizo this is what happen to only those in the Old testament but now the Holy Spirit would be abiding with you and IN you and on both men and women believers. This is important because the holy Spirit is very inclusive to all believers this is not eltizing of spirituality of a person NO. This relationship and servitude to God by a willful Christian.

 

[Ariel82]

I have seen people post that they haven't been baptised by the Holy spirit, because they are still troubled or still have sin, what would you tell them?

How can someone know for sure they have received the Holy Spirit, what assurances do people have?

My answer has been that I know God's Holy Spirit is guiding me because things I used to have no problem doing, I get convicted about now. My priorities and how I see situations have changed...it's no longer about winning but how God's love can be displayed. Its no longer about my pain but others healing.

How would you explain it?

 

[Ariel82]

It would be interesting to examine the difference of how the Holy Spirit works before and after Christ ascension, but that might be a different topic from your OP.

 

[CS1]

I have seen people post that they haven't been baptised by the Holy spirit, because they are still troubled or still have sin, what would you tell them?

How can someone know for sure they have received the Holy Spirit, what assurances do people have?

My answer has been that I know God's Holy Spirit is guiding me because things I used to have no problem doing, I get convicted about now. My priorities and how I see situations have changed...it's no longer about winning but how God's love can be displayed. Its no longer about my pain but others healing.

How would you explain it?

LOl very good question
the battle to walk in the Spirit is a daily thing and guess what those who are Spirit-filled have fallen short. YEP thats right and the reason why is because we do not rely on the Spirit of God 24/7 the flesh get's in the way. BUT when we are not obedient this leads to grieving the Holy Spirit something that did not happen in the Old testament The Spirit of the Living God would depart from you. kind of harder to do that when HE is in you. Jesus said what? I will never Leave you nor forsake you". This is why we have grace in the sanctification process and the Holy Spirit helping us if we obey HIS Leading

Absolutely the Spirit of the Lord guides you this is not a feeling this is a promise that you and I must
Hold to.

 

[Ariel82]

I think many people have a mistaken idea of what life after being born again looks like.

Conviction of our sins is a sign that the Holy spirit is in our lives. However conviction is different than condemnation.

Conviction shows you what you did wrong and then how you can do right.

Condemnation just makes you feel guilty but does not show the hope and grace seen in God's forgiveness. It makes you feel like you can't ever change and that is not from God.

We have to remember God loves us and making a mistake is part of learning. We aren't failures until we give up trying.

It's been lovely talking to you CS1.

Life calls.

God bless and keep you. Will be back when I need my Bible discussion fix

 

[SovereignGrace]

Brother Samuel23

Abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness.[Gen. 15:6, Rom. 4:3, & Jam. 2:23] To be righteous is to be justified by faith. Righteousness is having a 'right standing' with God. All of this centers around the Spirit of God. Man, in his unregenerate state, is at odds with God. He is a fleshly man that can not please Him.[Rom. 8:8] The unregenerate are His enemies.[Rom.8:7] It takes God to regenerate them. Regeneration is via His Spirit. Abraham could not have been declared righteous(have a right standing with God) w/o the Spirit.

Also, Jam. 2:23 says Abraham was God's friend. You can't be His friend w/o the Spirit.

You may have missed this. Thanks.

 

[samuel23]

Lauren, there is nothing complex about my statement, it was very simple and direct. My point was, as Christians we cannot ALWAYS claim for ourselves everything the apostles had because there are some things unique to the apostles. For starters, they lived with and listened to the actual physical Jesus, for another thing they were CLEAN because they believed the words of Jesus even though they were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit at that time. Neither of those things happen to believers today. My point was that we cannot always say, because it happened to Peter, James, and John, it can happen to me. Most of what happened to the apostles can happen to us...but not all.

 

[Ariel82]

"another thing they were CLEAN because they believed the words of Jesus even though they were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit at that time. "


Why is that not true today, Samuel?

 

[CS1]

Lauren, there is nothing complex about my statement, it was very simple and direct. My point was, as Christians we cannot ALWAYS claim for ourselves everything the apostles had because there are some things unique to the apostles. For starters, they lived with and listened to the actual physical Jesus, for another thing they were CLEAN because they believed the words of Jesus even though they were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit at that time. Neither of those things happen to believers today. My point was that we cannot always say, because it happened to Peter, James, and John, it can happen to me. Most of what happened to the apostles can happen to us...but not all.

that is not what the bible says

we can have everything the early Church had recorded in the book of Acts . The Holy Spirit is in the believer today the same as HE was then 2000 years ago . the disciple did not understand all Jesus said until HE rose from the Dead and not all in the upper room were disciples yet 120 all received on the day of Pentecost both men and women. So your point is not even supported in the event recorded in the Book of Acts. The Holy Spirit empowering of the believer is well documented as a normative in the bible anything that is a normative in context to the Holy Spirit is for us today. John 14 and 16 are for us today. Acts 2:38 is for us today 1cor chapter 12, 13, 14 is for us today.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Lauren, there is nothing complex about my statement, it was very simple and direct. My point was, as Christians we cannot ALWAYS claim for ourselves everything the apostles had because there are some things unique to the apostles. For starters, they lived with and listened to the actual physical Jesus, for another thing they were CLEAN because they believed the words of Jesus even though they were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit at that time. Neither of those things happen to believers today. My point was that we cannot always say, because it happened to Peter, James, and John, it can happen to me. Most of what happened to the apostles can happen to us...but not all.

The Apostles could heal the sick, raise the dead, give sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, voice to the mute, and cast out demons. All these they could do WITHOUT the indwelling of God's Spirit?