Acts /1cor 12, 13, 14 baptsim in the HG and gifts of the Spirit

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CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#81
Lauren, there is nothing complex about my statement, it was very simple and direct. My point was, as Christians we cannot ALWAYS claim for ourselves everything the apostles had because there are some things unique to the apostles. For starters, they lived with and listened to the actual physical Jesus, for another thing they were CLEAN because they believed the words of Jesus even though they were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit at that time. Neither of those things happen to believers today. My point was that we cannot always say, because it happened to Peter, James, and John, it can happen to me. Most of what happened to the apostles can happen to us...but not all.



being simple and direct is not them same as scriptural and truth
 
Dec 2, 2016
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#82
People of God before Christ resurrection usually had the Spirit of God with them, as did the apostles before Jesus resurrection. After Jesus resurrection all people of God are given the indwelling Spirit. The mystery of the ages(not known until it happened) was Christ is us. So the mystery not known until it happened was that all people of God would be given the indwelling Holy Spirit. So Abraham did not have the indwelling Spirit as far as we know, however the Spirit of God was certainly with him.
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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#83
People of God before Christ resurrection usually had the Spirit of God with them, as did the apostles before Jesus resurrection. After Jesus resurrection all people of God are given the indwelling Spirit. The mystery of the ages(not known until it happened) was Christ is us. So the mystery not known until it happened was that all people of God would be given the indwelling Holy Spirit. So Abraham did not have the indwelling Spirit as far as we know, however the Spirit of God was certainly with him.
Got scripture to support this? I would like for you to address my post on pg 4, please? Thanks bushels.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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#84
People of God before Christ resurrection usually had the Spirit of God with them, as did the apostles before Jesus resurrection. After Jesus resurrection all people of God are given the indwelling Spirit. The mystery of the ages(not known until it happened) was Christ is us. So the mystery not known until it happened was that all people of God would be given the indwelling Holy Spirit. So Abraham did not have the indwelling Spirit as far as we know, however the Spirit of God was certainly with him.
that is completely un-biblical the Spirit of the Living God was not with everyone in the Old testament. The presence of the existence of God was known by HIS creation. this was called General revelation, then God choose to get closer to man this was done by Special revelation "HIS word" the final way is By HIS Spirit this is known as Illumination when the Old testament said " And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him" Judge 3:10 this was done for specific people i.e kings Prophets , rulers and priest and judges.

The difference today
is now all can have the Spirit of God in them if they are a saved believer in Christ . I would not place limits on the Spirit of God in and on HIS child or saved Person.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#85
The Apostles could heal the sick, raise the dead, give sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, voice to the mute, and cast out demons. All these they could do WITHOUT the indwelling of God's Spirit?
Yes because there is a difference between the outward manifestation of the Holy Spirit and the inward dwelling and inward change of heart.

Jesus said He had to leave so He could send the Holy Spirit to instruct and teach the disciples everything they would need to know. Yet before He died He gave them the power to heal and cast out demons.

John 16:7
"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.


It makes me wonder at the concept of Elishua asking for a double blessing from Elijah and goes back to my question:

What is the difference of how the Holy Spirit works before and after Christ ascension?

How is it the same? How is it difference?

One difference that has been mention is indwelling versus outwardly being with the prophets and others in the Old testament.

Perhaps it's tied to how the old covenant is different from the new covenant?

Or is there no difference?
 
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CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
10,276
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#86
Yes because there is a difference between the outward manifestation of the Holy Spirit and the inward dwelling and inward change of heart.

Jesus said He had to leave so He could send the Holy Spirit to install and teach the disciples everything they would need to know. Yet before He died He gave them the power to heal and cast out demons.


It makes me wonder at the concept of Elishua asking for a double blessing from Elijah and goes back to my question:

What is the difference of how the Holy Spirit works before and after Christ ascension?

How is it the same? How is it difference?

One difference that has been mention is indwelling versus outwardly being with the prophets and others in the Old testament.

Perhaps it's tied to how the old covenant is different from the new covenant?

Or is there no difference?
The Lord had the Spirit without measure because HE is God
The Holy Spirit worked in the Disciples much in the same way HE did on the Prophets of Old. Also remember they had the Authority in the name of Jesus those things had to bow sickness, demons, etc....
After Jesus Ascension the Holy Spirit could do what the Man Jesus could not do expand with the growth of the new Church Jesus was fully God and Fully man Jesus could not be (the man ) two places at one time ) this is because of HIS willful stepping into this restriction. NOW the Holy Spirit is all present and could all so be in every believer simultaneously
Jesus is in every believer by faith and through the Spirit of God the same Spirit in the apostles then and men & women today
 
Dec 2, 2016
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#87
I don't know if any of them raised the dead, but yes, the apostles and also 70 others that Jesus choose did do healings without being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Jesus Himself choose those people and gave to them the ability to do those things...it was Jesus, Son of God...that is why they had that ability.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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#88
I don't know if any of them raised the dead, but yes, the apostles and also 70 others that Jesus choose did do healings without being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Jesus Himself choose those people and gave to them the ability to do those things...it was Jesus, Son of God...that is why they had that ability.
well if jesus is the one who give the authority or the "Authority to by which sickness and disease are healed and demons
flee, eyes open and ear hear . That speaks to John chapter 1 where Jesus is the baptizer in the Holy Ghost. Jesus said they would have a " Comforter " the Spirit of truth. NOW when the Spirit came on them 120 and not all were apostles received The Holy Spirit. who gave them the ability to speak in tongues those who were not of the 12? and why did it continue to the gentiles who did not see Jesus ? Peter said they received just as we have .
 
Dec 2, 2016
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#89
Sigh! I did not say that the Spirit of God was with EVERYONE in the OT that is unbiblical. I said that the Spirit of God was with the people of God and I compared those people in the Old Testament to the apostles who were people of God. So the people of God in the OT prophets, kings, special leaders, had the Spirit of God with them but not permanent indwelling as we have today.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#90
Accounts of People Raised from the Dead

1. Elijah raised the son of the Zarephath widow from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-22).

2. Elisha raised the son of the Shunammite woman from the dead (2 Kings 4:32-35).

3. A man was raised from the dead when his body touched Elisha’s bones (2 Kings 13:20, 21)

4. Many saints rose from the dead at the resurrection of Jesus (Matt. 27:50-53).

5. Jesus rose from the dead (Matt. 28:5-8; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:5, 6).

6. Jesus raised the son of the widow of Nain from the dead (Luke 7:11-15).

7. Jesus raised the daughter of Jairus from the dead (Luke 8:41, 42, 49-55).

8. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:1-44).

9. Peter raised Dorcas from the dead (Acts 9:36-41).

10. Eutychus was raised from the dead by Paul (Acts 20:9, 10).

J. L. Meredith, Meredith’s Big Book of Bible Lists, (Inspirational Press, NY; 1980), p. 115


Sidenote: sorry for this off topic post but I thought it was an interesting list and is slightly connected to the conversation.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#91
Sigh! I did not say that the Spirit of God was with EVERYONE in the OT that is unbiblical. I said that the Spirit of God was with the people of God and I compared those people in the Old Testament to the apostles who were people of God. So the people of God in the OT prophets, kings, special leaders, had the Spirit of God with them but not permanent indwelling as we have today.
I agree yes the believer today does have the Spirit in them as they did then yep amen
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
10,276
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#92
Accounts of People Raised from the Dead

1. Elijah raised the son of the Zarephath widow from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-22).

2. Elisha raised the son of the Shunammite woman from the dead (2 Kings 4:32-35).

3. A man was raised from the dead when his body touched Elisha’s bones (2 Kings 13:20, 21)

4. Many saints rose from the dead at the resurrection of Jesus (Matt. 27:50-53).

5. Jesus rose from the dead (Matt. 28:5-8; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:5, 6).

6. Jesus raised the son of the widow of Nain from the dead (Luke 7:11-15).

7. Jesus raised the daughter of Jairus from the dead (Luke 8:41, 42, 49-55).

8. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:1-44).

9. Peter raised Dorcas from the dead (Acts 9:36-41).

10. Eutychus was raised from the dead by Paul (Acts 20:9, 10).

J. L. Meredith, Meredith’s Big Book of Bible Lists, (Inspirational Press, NY; 1980), p. 115


Sidenote: sorry for this off topic post but I thought it was an interesting list and is slightly connected to the conversation.
it does show the Spirit of God on those who did a work for the Lord
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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#93
Yes because there is a difference between the outward manifestation of the Holy Spirit and the inward dwelling and inward change of heart.

Jesus said He had to leave so He could send the Holy Spirit to instruct and teach the disciples everything they would need to know. Yet before He died He gave them the power to heal and cast out demons.

John 16:7
"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.


It makes me wonder at the concept of Elishua asking for a double blessing from Elijah and goes back to my question:

What is the difference of how the Holy Spirit works before and after Christ ascension?

How is it the same? How is it difference?

One difference that has been mention is indwelling versus outwardly being with the prophets and others in the Old testament.

Perhaps it's tied to how the old covenant is different from the new covenant?

Or is there no difference?
Remember, some prophesied in the Spitit but were not saved. King Saul prophesied, Caiaphas prophesied, Balaam prophesied, and the donkey Baalam rode on spoke, too. So an outward appearance can fool ppl, but not God. But, none of these had the ability to heal, give sight and hearing, cast out demons, &c.

But any child of God, pre- or post-cross, had the Spirit endwelling them.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#94
well if jesus is the one who give the authority or the "Authority to by which sickness and disease are healed and demons
flee, eyes open and ear hear . That speaks to John chapter 1 where Jesus is the baptizer in the Holy Ghost. Jesus said they would have a " Comforter " the Spirit of truth. NOW when the Spirit came on them 120 and not all were apostles received The Holy Spirit. who gave them the ability to speak in tongues those who were not of the 12? and why did it continue to the gentiles who did not see Jesus ? Peter said they received just as we have .
Wait wait wait...

Have I stumbled into a cessationist versus continuation of spiritual gifts debate?

If so can we pretend that y'all haven't had it before and everyone clearly state what they believe without assuming you know what anyone else believes?

I have seen a few of these but never really saw why people argued so much cuz it seemed they really believed mostly the same things.

The exception really being ...tongues, appointment of apostles (i have heard that only folks who walked with Jesus can be apostles, don't agree but we can discuss if folks like), laying of hands for healing?

Not sure folks opinion of casting out of demons.

Most people accept gifts of the Spirit to some part.

I don't read every thread, but try to read all post on the threads I choose to post on.
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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#95
Accounts of People Raised from the Dead

1. Elijah raised the son of the Zarephath widow from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-22).

2. Elisha raised the son of the Shunammite woman from the dead (2 Kings 4:32-35).

3. A man was raised from the dead when his body touched Elisha’s bones (2 Kings 13:20, 21)

4. Many saints rose from the dead at the resurrection of Jesus (Matt. 27:50-53).

5. Jesus rose from the dead (Matt. 28:5-8; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:5, 6).

6. Jesus raised the son of the widow of Nain from the dead (Luke 7:11-15).

7. Jesus raised the daughter of Jairus from the dead (Luke 8:41, 42, 49-55).

8. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:1-44).

9. Peter raised Dorcas from the dead (Acts 9:36-41).

10. Eutychus was raised from the dead by Paul (Acts 20:9, 10).

J. L. Meredith, Meredith’s Big Book of Bible Lists, (Inspirational Press, NY; 1980), p. 115


Sidenote: sorry for this off topic post but I thought it was an interesting list and is slightly connected to the conversation.
Without the Spirit, none belong to Christ.[Romans 8:9] Now, ppl who healed in the manner the OT Prophets and the Disciples did, they had the Spirit indwelling them. What we see is a gross application of John 7:39 in full display. I am not accusing you, Sister.
 
Dec 2, 2016
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#96
Why did it continue to the gentiles? The gift of salvation by faith in God through Jesus Christ was given to the Jew first and then to the gentiles. We are given the same Spirit as the apostles, however we do not have some of the unique experiences that they had.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#97
Remember, some prophesied in the Spitit but were not saved. King Saul prophesied, Caiaphas prophesied, Balaam prophesied, and the donkey Baalam rode on spoke, too. So an outward appearance can fool ppl, but not God. But, none of these had the ability to heal, give sight and hearing, cast out demons, &c.

But any child of God, pre- or post-cross, had the Spirit endwelling them.
I don't agree. One because Jesus made a point to say he had to go away before He could send. them the Holy spirit to indwell and guide them by reminding them of His words. Which makes me believe there is a difference marked by His death, ressurection and ascension.

Also Jesus said some cast out demons in His name but He does not know them, so outward signs never testify to inward salvation.
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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#98
Why did it continue to the gentiles? The gift of salvation by faith in God through Jesus Christ was given to the Jew first and then to the gentiles. We are given the same Spirit as the apostles, however we do not have some of the unique experiences that they had.
Agreed. But because they healed ppl, had special God-given abilities does not make their conversion any different than ours. Yes, they had special gifts. Even today, some christians are more gifted in the ministry than others. Some are better singers than others. But everyone's salvation is the same. It is God who gives many gifts to some, and fewer to others. Those who have lesser gifts are just as saved, though.
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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#99
I don't agree. One because Jesus made a point to say he had to go away before He could send. them the Holy spirit to indwell and guide them by reminding them of His words.
Adam Clarke, a free will Methodist has an online commentary. Read his comment on John 7:39.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Why did it continue to the gentiles? The gift of salvation by faith in God through Jesus Christ was given to the Jew first and then to the gentiles. We are given the same Spirit as the apostles, however we do not have some of the unique experiences that they had.


that right and they received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit the same as the Jew did who were saved. My Bible says I am saved by the same Jesus they were saved by and I was baptized by the same Jesus they were baptized with. And many have had the very same experience spoken in Acts and the very same gifts used in church today